Carrick Mines.

Typedef

The government is in it's utter ignorance is building a Motorway through an archaeological site, Carrick Mines.

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=10565850&p=yx566xxx&n=10566071

A motorway, in place of an archaeological site, where once there was national heritage there will be cars,trucks,motorcyclists and Sunday drivers.

My god, I presume the same great intellectuals who saw fit not to reroute that particular road would also not see the problem in perhaps building a road striaght through Newgrange, or bulldozing a Dolmen or ten to make a visitor centre for the burren.

Don't get me wrong I'm in favour of industrial development and job creation and I accept that free market capitalism is probably the best way to create long term prosperity, but in my view there is no trade off in a motorway for a peace of national heritage.

Once that road gets built there is no rebuilding that archaeological site for future generations, you won't be able to take primary school children to see it and tell them about the people's way of life back when the mines were in use, no instead you will have a mass of tar and concrete with cars and trucks streaming past 24/7 and for what, because the intellegentsia running the Department of Transport can't manage to realise that building roads through national treasures is actually bad or simply that the politicos are ignorants and philisitines, the sort who have no time for life nor opinion that doesn't conform to their insular and self venerated outlook on life?

I've been Typedef... it's been real.

DadaKopf

First hand information available at www.carrickminescastle.org

mike65

Originally posted by Typedef



My god, I presume the same great intellectuals who saw fit not to reroute that particular road would also not see the problem in perhaps building a road striaght through Newgrange, or bulldozing a Dolmen or ten to make a visitor centre for the burren.

er, there were no intellectualls involved in the routing of the final section of the M50, it changed direction for no good reason a few years back, now if I were to mention used notes and brown envelopes...

On the project itself, most of the site will not be destroyed it should be noted and can South-east Dublin wait another 5 years until the planning procedure is completed all over again if its moved back to its origional route?

Just a thought.

Mike.

Victor

Originally posted by mike65
On the project itself, most of the site will not be destroyed it should be noted and can South-east Dublin wait another 5 years until the planning procedure is completed all over again if its moved back to its origional route?

It would not take 5 years to re-do the route as only one small section is being disputed and seeing as the environmental crowd are asking for the re-routing, I suspect the only ones that will object will be the brown envelope brigade.

bertiebowl

When your talking about the environment - perhaps you should look at the traffic pollution caused in South Dublin due to the failure to complete this motorway years ago.

Then you should ask yourself what the likes of 12 hours * 6 days of Gridlock in the Ballinteer/Dundrum area is doing to air quality and quality of life etc. etc.

Try taking 40 minutes to a mile in the morning and evening.

Try taking 60-80 minutes to exit the Sandyford Industrial Estate at peak hours (anytime between 7 am and 8 pm) and make it to the M50

I saw the "castle" for myself. A few stones about 21/2 feet high.

Nobody knew about this castle until they decided to build the motorway.

Now the residents and commuters of south dublin have these unelected, unaccountable hippies trying to block the building of a motorway that will bring relief to traffic congestion.

Who's running this country? A few scroungers on the dole or.... hard working people who actually pay taxes and only want to spend a max of 2 hours a day inside their cars?

Typedef

"scroungers on the dole "?

I thought said people were archaeological students, and umm in this society whether you regard their views as correct or not those people have votes and have the right to protest at things said people find offencive.

I object to the development of the road in question and anyone who has ever met me will attest to the fact I'm not a hippie and even if I was I'd still have the right to protest against the demolition of part of Ireland's national history.

Lets be clear building a road through an archaeological site in my opinion is sheer ignorance. I remember as a child being brought to see old celtic villages, being brought to see dolmens in the burren, being brought to see NewGrange in Meath, sites like those are part of Ireland's national heritage and in two hundred years future generations will want to visit archaeological sites like Carrick Mines, not view an obselete mouldering tarmac road where once there was a historic site, because a few people two hundred years earlier were too ignorant to realise that you can't simply recreate history like that once you destroy it. Once it's destroyed, it's gone for good, a road can be diverted however and still complete it's funtion.

Jak

Possible government corruption aside ...

Is everything sacred?

We already have numerous protected and worthy archaeological and historical sites and buildings around the country. The entire world is built on history. Cities are built on cities. There are no doubt countless historical sites that were never even discovered around the world, buried under several tons of 'progress'. Who knows, in two thousand years if the world is still ticking over people may well be trying to preserve what we have laid down in our era.

I believe there comes a point where the world must accept certain losses for certain gains. I would support people taking what they could from the area in question and writing it all down and storing some pieces, but frankly (from reading through the site link posted), I do not value this site enough to warrant its protection for eternity.

bertiebowl

Right to protest?

Absolutely TypeDef - everyone has the right to protest - however when those protests impinge on others it becomes a more serious issue.

These so called "minders" are destroying the quality of life of the existing communities and other commuters who live/travel through South Dublin.

Let's see the minders come to examine the enviroment around Dundrum to see if they would like spending an extra 2 hours a day hacking their way through traffic because some hippies in wigwams want to drop out of society and save a few rocks....................

Victor

Originally posted by bertiebowl
When your talking about the environment - perhaps you should look at the traffic pollution caused in South Dublin due to the failure to complete this motorway years ago.

Blame the council (the designers who should have done the archaolgical excavation years ago) and the original property owners who extorted huge amounts of money from the council / NRA (including Jackson Way Properties who don't even have title deeds for their site), not the hippies.

Originally posted by bertiebowl
Then you should ask yourself what the likes of 12 hours * 6 days of Gridlock in the Ballinteer/Dundrum area is doing to air quality and quality of life etc. etc.

This is because they (the council / DOELG) decided to facilitate the Dundrum (Pye Centre) shopping centre instead of Stillorgan Industrial Estate.

Originally posted by bertiebowl
I saw the "castle" for myself. A few stones about 21/2 feet high.

And the Egyptian mummies were just dead people.

Originally posted by bertiebowl
Nobody knew about this castle until they decided to build the motorway.

The council did - they had a report on it dated 1983 or so. And many an archaological find has been made while doing roadworks.

Originally posted by bertiebowl
Now the residents and commuters of south dublin have these unelected, unaccountable hippies trying to block the building of a motorway that will bring relief to traffic congestion. Who's running this country? A few scroungers on the dole or.... hard working people who actually pay taxes and only want to spend a max of 2 hours a day inside their cars?

Nice rhetoric, but one wonders how true it is. Re-routing a small section of the motorway (which won't open for years anyway) can be easily achieved. Map: http://www.dlrcoco.ie/M50new/map2.htm

bertiebowl

Hey agree with you that the Council is responsible for the shambles we're in.

However that does not change my point that the Hippies are the ones who are blocking progress from the current situation.

Now re-routing the motorway is technically feasible.

But new planning permissions, followed by new environmental impacts surveys would be required to re-route the motorway

Equals FIVE YEAR DELAY.

By which time the M50 won't qualify for the Euro lolly its being funded by

Equals no more M50.

Fine for eco - wasters living in wigwams and get up out of the scratcher at 11 o'clock in the morning.

Not so good for local residents who'll have to suffer constant 12-14 hour gridlock * 6 days a week

Or for those who have to commute through the Sandyford/Dundrum area.

Victor

Originally posted by bertiebowl
Now re-routing the motorway is technically feasible. But new planning permissions, followed by new environmental impacts surveys would be required to re-route the motorway. Equals FIVE YEAR DELAY.

Someone lied to Brennan, the basis for the EIS is there and who is going to object to saving the castle on EIS grounds? If they wanted to it could be sorted in days (OK months would be required for the waiting periods, but you get the point). As it stands, the Carrickmines interchange is more complicated than it needs to be (to satisfy Jackson Way).

Originally posted by bertiebowl
Not so good for local residents who'll have to suffer constant 12-14 hour gridlock * 6 days a week. Or for those who have to commute through the Sandyford/Dundrum area.

Most of this congestion would have been solved if they used the €30m they used on the Dundrum / Wyckham Bypass and Brehon Field Road on completing the Ballinteer Interchange - Stillorgan Interchange - Brewery Road / Stillorgan Road route.

Typedef

Actually Bertiebowl yes the M50 derives funding from the EU however if you look at the funding of the National Roads Authority you will see that €3.55 billion is funded by the Irish government €1.27 billion is funded by public/private partnership and a measely €880 million is funded by the Cohesion Fund of which €231 million of this Cohesion Fund is split between the M1 & M50.
http://www.nra.ie/full/brown/financingroads.pdf

Plus I don't know if you know this, but if you drive through Dundrum, you will see a great big bridge, that in fact used to be my father's house, it was bought under compulsory purchase orders by the Corporation, now my old man owns a business, has a second family and did substancial amounts of work to that house, he was by no means a hippie, anyway.

The figure of a five year delay is not absolute, unless you can substanciate it and in any case I don't really regard such pithe amounts of funding as good reasons to bulldoze a site of national heritage. Look at your own namesake, the bertiebowl, where the Taoiseach was going to blow €1 billion of public money on Stadium Ireland, and then tell me that €231 million of Cohesion funding in a budget split between two motorways with a budget of €5.7 billion is really worth the price paid, then ask people in three hundred years if it was worth the price paid.

Victor

Sole director of Jackson Way attends hearing
From: www.Ireland.com Monday, 14th October, 2002

The sole director and shareholder of Jackson Way Properties has made an unexpected appearance at an arbitration hearing in Dun Laoghaire.

The shelf company is claiming €47 million in compensation from Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council following the compulsory acquisition of some of its lands for a motorway.

Today Mr Alan Holland - the sole director and shareholder of the company - appeared at an arbitration hearing in Dun Laoghaire.

The ownership of Jackson Way was unclear, but documents in the possession of the Criminal Assets Bureau suggested Mr James Kennedy, the amusement arcade owner who bought the lands in the 1980s, was the beneficial owner of the company.

A Belfast-born lawyer, Mr John Caldwell, has told the Flood tribunal he holds the lands "to my order" but he denied owning them.

bertiebowl

Most of this congestion would have been solved if they used the €30m they used on the Dundrum / Wyckham Bypass and Brehon Field Road on completing the Ballinteer Interchange - Stillorgan Interchange - Brewery Road / Stillorgan Road route.

Eh don't think so Buddy......

The congestion is caused by the fact that fine big M50 motorway gets rammed down into narrow suburban roads around Dundrum.

The solution to traffic congestion/pollution is to build the M50 motorway in the complete C link as proposed.

But no we have some unelected, unaccountable eco-wasters deciding that not only:

a) are they going to protest about the fact that a small part of some "castle" that's about 2.5 feet high will have to make way for progress

b) their going to do their damnest to delay the building of the motorway to relieve congestion for the hard pressed commuters in South Dublin, not to mention the poor residents.

c) Their probably going to srounge off the dole while their "protesting"

Victor

Originally posted by bertiebowl
The congestion is caused by the fact that fine big M50 motorway gets rammed down into narrow suburban roads around Dundrum. The solution to traffic congestion/pollution is to build the M50 motorway in the complete C link as proposed.

The C ring ends at Sandyford, if they connected up to Brewery Road / Leopardstown Road they traffic would be much more manageable.

Originally posted by bertiebowl
c) Their probably going to srounge off the dole while their "protesting"

And how is this relevant?

Typedef

According to RTE news last night the European Comission is enquiring why the environmental impact undertaken for the M50 didn't factor in Carrick Mines.

It'd be really great if 'considering the M50' has European money contributed to it, the Europeans required the road to be diverted, I guess if Ireland is to loose it's soveringty, it's best to make the best of a bad situation.

--Vote No to Nice on Saturday.

bertiebowl

The C ring ends at Sandyford, if they connected up to Brewery Road / Leopardstown Road they traffic would be much more manageable.

Exacto mundo baby - however the contractors are refusing to open a section of the M50 to Leopardstown Road as this would put them well back timewise for some technical reason.

The contractors are saying that per the deal done with DLR co.co they'll only open the WHOLE M50 when its complete.

And lets make another point clear. Any proposed rerouting of the M50 will HALT ALL CONSTRUCTION WORK until the rerouting is finalised.

This means the eco-hippies living in the trees with the Carrickmines Stones will have successfully delayed construction by God knows how long as the innocent commuters/residents suffer 14 hours a day of gridlock.

Typedef

Welll it's really going to come between me and my sleep that yet another road for yet more cars will be a little delayed while said road is rerouted.

I know the innocent car owners have to suffer the indignity of slightly longer traffic jams, when they could be busying themselves about buying more cars, to fill up the newly built roads.

Just think in three hundred years, when roads are redundant and cars a thing of the past, future generations would be only too happy to gaze at a redundant, polluted, greasey, worn out motorway, in place of a medevil site of archeological significance, because the decent hardworking motor users of 2002 just needed to bulldoze through national history to prove the hippies wrong hmm?

Jak

You cannot take a step in this world without treading on history.

What exactly is so worthwhile about this particular site that warrants its protection for eternity? Why is it unique? What tangible gains are their for society? What does this site offer that is not already preserved somewhere else?

The earth is littered with historical sites from all the ages. Everything is not sacred. Granted we can take information and excavate certain objects of interest - but the promotion website shows me nothing of such quality or significance to warrant the rerouting of the road. And the majority of the site is to remain unaffected if I understand correctly!

At the end of the day, if there was a proposal to bulldoze Newgrange the majority would likely stand up to oppose. This site does not have the support.

JAK.

ps- The redundant, polluted, greasey, worn out roads built by the Romans seem to draw some attention still.

bertiebowl

Slightely longer traffic jams

Are you taking the piss Typedef?

It takes about 1 hour to 1 hour 30 to get out of the Sandyford Industrial Estate to the M50 alone.

I was talking to some poor b*stard who actually lives out near Sandyford. Poor f*cker has to get the 7.20 am bus to get into Dublin (5 miles) for 9.00 am start in work

Now think of all those cars/buses/trucks polluting the air as they crawl for 14 hours solid every day except Sunday............this pollution could be eliminated by building the motorway on time.

But no we got some eco-wasters and assorted hippies/do gooders who don't have to put up with any of the problems associated with a delay in the motorway pissing and moaning about the fact only 60% of a few rocks (all that's left of the "castle") will be saved.

Typedef

Hmm this is where I ask 'nicely' all parties using eco-wasters ,scroungers and the like to behave else I get mean.