The price we will pay

pork99

I've recently seen some of the socio-economic consequences of the crappy internet access situation here

A North American colleague of mine told me that he is seriously considering relocating and the state of internet access is a major factor in his decision. He's a highly skilled twenty-something software developer, precisely the sort of person we need to attract here or encourage to stay if they are already here.

The other incident is even more ominous. I know a software company that demonstrated some ecommerce software to the Irish division of a multi-national telco hoping to sell it to them. They were impressed by the demo and said it was very clever but they would not be purchasing it because IRISH PEOPLE DO NOT USE THE INTERNET.

So here is a case of an indigenous company attempting to develop an innovative product and grow their business being stiffled by the appalling level of internet connectivity here. It has really brought it home to me the perilous situation we are in. Eircom management and unions are preserving their own profits and jobs but at the expense of jobs and profits in some areas of the economy which we need to drive future growth i.e. innnovative tech SMEs.

It will all end in tears.

DeVore

I've spoken to two international companies whose SOLE reason for not locating here was the price of decent bandwidth.

One of them animates movies and loves Ireland because we've tons of animators who are savagely talented and will work for much less then their US counterparts...

Unfortunately they do all their work electronically and require the ability to throw very large animation files back and forth to various companies/distro-houses etc.

They told me at a conference in Boston that they just couldnt locate in Ireland because of the cost of leased lines that they'd need and just hired a ton of animators here and relocated them to the US.

We lost the company tax, the influx of money, the people, and the skills.

DeV.

pork99

We lost the company tax, the influx of money, the people, and the skills.

Reminds me of that saying "If you think knowledge is expensive, try ignorance" could be ammended to "if you think having dirt-cheap broadband EVERYWHERE is expensive, try not having it".

But of course the cost will only be apparent in 5-10 years time and by that time it will be too late. But wait a minute... maybe we can all go and work in the Digital Hub! of course that will save us!

Hannibal_12

I have become so bitter and cynical at the lack of progress here with respect to broadband and in many other areas also that I would actually laugh heartily if Ireland lost all its future skilled workforce and any people who for some mystical reason have emigrated here. Well done Bertie and Eircom you have safeguarded your own miserable jobs at the expense of the country you purport to develop and support.
Emigration is something I have long been considering and can say with certainty that I will be leaving the E-Tub behind one glorious day.
"Irish people dont use the internet" LOL, Thank you €ircon for reinforcing the stereotypical uncomplicated paddy perception that the rest of the world has about us.

Delphi91

I teach in a second level school.

The other day, I got a phone call from this guy about a course they're trying to get running in schools. It's similar to the ECDL. Seems the EU have decided that everybody should become e-literate (illiterate???).

So, anyways, the government here have decided (in their infinite and far-seeing wisdom) that this course should be put into schools. It's not free, by the way, like all other second level courses are.

It basically tells people how the internet works, about setting up webpages, chatrooms and how they work, internet addressing, etc, etc, etc. Can't you just imagine the backlash when an incident happens as a result of kids being shown how chatrooms work????

Successive governments have sat on their arse when it comes to providing a PROPER course in Computer Studies at second level. Then they have the cheek to suggest that schools take on this course, run by private companies, and have the kids pay for it!!!! It's a very clever way of avoiding having to provide a course.

This Government has NO interest whatsoever in getting Ireland to it's righful position in the world of computers and the internet.

And loathe though I am to say it, I really don't see it changing much in the future.

Mike

pork99

Then they have the cheek to suggest that schools take on this course, run by private companies, and have the kids pay for it!!!!

I think I smell brown envelopes there

Plus you have to shell out much cash to eircom for your school's internet connection. One hand washes the other. Oh joy!

seriously though Delphi91 - getting a bit off topic, thats awful about that computer course scam. You would expect IT should be a core subject at 2nd level, its just such a fundamental skill nowadays.

Are there any schemes where anyone working in the IT/internet industry could volunteer an hour or two a week, for free, to help out in any way with teaching web design or software development etc?

<retraction>

No way would I ever have the time to do anything like that. Wrote that in a fit of expansive philantropy common after the third bottle of Grolsch. I promise not to browse the boards while drunk in future

</retraction>

yankinlk

how are they gonna give a course on internet to students when the BEST schools only have an ISDN line for THIRTY+ PC's??????

Seriously, I do work for schools and I might as well be doing it for charity the amount of money they get to spend. Im sick of explaining why the "NETWORK is SLOW" when a classroom full of students tries to access their hotmail simultaneously over a 64k line.

Delphi91

Originally posted by pork99
...Seriously though Delphi91 - getting a bit off topic, thats awful about that computer course scam. You would expect IT should be a core subject at 2nd level, its just such a fundamental skill nowadays.

Yeah, it is.

And Yanklink is correct too - ISDN is a joke. I have a school lab of 30 pc's and trying to have them all connect to the net through a router reminds me of the days when we had C64's and they shared one disk drive!!

The guy who was talking to me about this course said that they were hoping to get private companies interested in it and these companies would then be able to go to the Government with a plan for a VPN, so that all schools would have ADSL speed with no internet charges. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that there was a ~4-5km limit to be eligible for ADSL? The guy didn't seem to know anything about this.

He also said that Eamon O'Cuiv would have something close to €30 million to spend on this. Not sure what O'Cuiv's interest or responsibility in this area is.

Mike

pork99

I have a school lab of 30 pc's and trying to have them all connect to the net through a router reminds me of the days when we had C64's and they shared one disk drive!!

I think its getting to the stage where we will have a 2nd class education system relative to other developed coutries. School kids in Germany, Canada and so on will be completing their projects, video conferencing with each other etc at the speed of light for next to no cost while our kids are struggling to get online.:mad:

We've had to listen to all the propaganda about the highly skilled and educated workforce here, so attractive to foreign investors. However it seems that our destiny is to be a big golf course/ fishing resort for Europe and North America. Educate the kids to be hotel staff and green keepers! You dont need high tech skills for that.

Canadian

The company I work for cancelled a planned expansion at the beginning of this year for two reasons:

1. Telephone problems have been difficult to resolve. The phone turrets frequently break down and occasionally don't work at all, leaving us to contact our other international offices using our mobile phones. (i'm not sure if this is an eircom problem or a hardware issue, but the eircom staff can't seem to fix it).

2. Cost of bandwidth and local network expertise.

The result - 30 jobs went to England instead. Another success for the local phone company.

dahamsta

I've said this before: A database of this kind of stuff would be killer for IrelandOffline. The media will eat it like chocolate pudding and come back for seconds, because it's a killer story with all the required characters and plotlines: evil giant corporations, megalomaniac owners, shadowy deals, dumbass cronies, corrupt politicians, downtrodden support organisations, and most importantly, Joe Public getting it in the butt. FFS, all we're short for a Hollywood blockbuster is a bloody enormous laser and a fluffy cat for the aforementioned megalomaniac to stroke. (Although I imagine he prefers to stroke his money. Or himself.)

But it needs to be first-hand accounts; hearsay and "my brothers auntie's uncle thrice removed said that Tony the barber once knew a guy who's donkey was owned by a guy who might once have had his ISDN line cut off because the donkey was ill and that's just not right", well, it just doesn't cut the mustard. IrelandOffline would need to be able to cite exact details, and more importantly, introduce people affected directly to the media, so they can check the facts. (Unless it's the Phoenix, in which case any old sh1te will do, as my friend in IE Watch found recently. )

So if you know someone who left Ireland because of the situation, or decided not to locate here, or went bust, or whatever, you should ask them to write an account of the events and send it to IrelandOffline, by email or snail-mail or whatever. And believe me, if you ask them, they will. There's nothing a downtrodden businessman or woman likes more than recounting tales of how the world is working against them. They'll probably write far more than IrelandOffline will ever need. And of course it'll be an opportunity to get their business in the press...

So go do it.

adam

pork99

Although I imagine he prefers to stroke his money. Or himself.

ROFLOL:D

A database of this kind of stuff would be killer for IrelandOffline

It would be absolutely killer to do this. Unfortunately the main obstacle from my point of view with giving specific details of company names, dates places etc is that it could breach NDAs signed with employers or clients. If I could get around that I would love to contribute to any such dossier.

Dangger

We have been discussing the idea of including a testomonial section on the IOFFL site to collect peoples perspectives and personal experiences first hand for a while now.

MDR you around?

MDR

MDR you around?

Hey y'all,

Pork99,I can so relate to all the incidents you cite, afterall thats why we are all here. Here was my plan :-

What I feel IOFFL has needed for a while is a website subsection of personal testimonials by the members. This would take the form of people speaking frankily about how the internet is involved with their lives, nobs and all, and then briefily speaking about why the current pricing/access schemes are inadequate. This would serve as very useful PR for IOFFL, would prove that we have a valid socio-economic mandate and more importantily aren't a bunch of salivating geeks ...

So what do we need ?

Well I figure that we would need four to six testimonals at most, each one from its own unique demographic groups, single mothers, director of SME, script kiddie, grandmother etc, these would be published on the website complete with photos of the peeps and relevent propaganda

So how do we get all this data together ?

Well this is the fun bit, I figured IOFFL is very important entity but not a fun enitity (apart from when we get drunk a committee meeting and head off to the strip club ), I want to put a bit of fun back in IOFFL. So I was thinking that this could take the form of a competition. We could get some prizes together (t-shirts and stuff), send out a mail to the mailling list, committee could judge the entries and choose the six best (one from each demographic group, prolly more than one script kiddie though).

Anyone entering the competition, would have to agree that there entry would be used for IOFFL PR, they would have to supply a photo (one can be arrange ... I have digital camera), and their name would be used in the publication. I want to be able to point and say look real people in Ireland use the net ...

So your the members, I am only here serving your interests, so you tell me, what do you think of my idea ?

LFCFan

I was just on the Eircom Business Site and found this:

'Dial-up Internet access is the simplest and most popular way for small to medium sized businesses to connect to the Internet'.

They really are a joke if they think that Dial up is the 'Most Popular'. Most used maybe, but only because there is no other choice.

pork99

Excellent idea MDR

irelandoffline.org needs something there instead of;

"Upcoming Events

There are no upcoming events"



(btw I know its all going on in the background - just that anyone casually dropping into the site wont know that)

I could possibly interest that developer who is thinking of going elsewhere in entering. I have sent him links to ioffl board and eircomtribunal but he says he cant read much of it because it just depresses him

The people involved with the failed software deal would be a lot harder to interest - you know the way anything like this is done by corporations - even bidding for contracts is done through a thick legal "condom" constructed of intricate layers of NDAs and MOUs.

(sailing close to breaching my own NDA even mentioning any of this stuff )