The Flood gates have opened on corruption

PH01

Surprised no one has mentioned this yet. Following the release yesterday of the interim report from the Flood tribunal it looks like there will be quite a lot of corrupt politicians waking up this morning searching for the life-boats.

gandalf

I'll believe it when I see it. I reckon Burke, Mara and the boys will just get a slap on the wrist at most. I would love to be proved wrong on this but judging by how Charlie "I'm so sick" Haughey got let off because of his so called poor health and he now looks healthier than ever i can see these pillers of society worming their way out of trouble.

Gandalf.

dathi1

PJ Mara a very trustworthy man with nothing to hide has now stepped down as the chairman and whip for the yes to nice campaign. Now he definitely wont be able to retire to Brussels in the future superstate. Where there's power there's money and were there's more power there's even more money and power.

NO 2 NICE

Cork

Scandals! THe scandals in the EU put the scandals in Ireland in the half penny place.

PJ Meara will bounce back.

I think that Flood is in the past. It is a waste of money. People are still evading and avoiding tax.

How much tax does the Hourse racing industry pay?
What about singers/songwriters?
What about Ireland's tax exiles?
What about the many EU scandals?

Our tribunerals are a waste. Resources need to be diverted to audit the self employed.

Meh

Originally posted by Cork
I think that Flood is in the past. It is a waste of money. People are still evading and avoiding tax.

Our tribunerals are a waste. Resources need to be diverted to audit the self employed.

Actually, according to today's Indo, the Flood tribunal has cost the taxpayer €21 million, but €34.5 million have been recovered by the Revenue Commissioners and the Criminal Assets Bureau under investigations related to its findings.

dathi1

You think PJ, Burke are bad....wait till you get a load of: Chirac and Bereliscoini...Corruption at its corporate best in a federal superstate...... u aint seen nothin yet.

Blade

Originally posted by gandalf
Charlie "I'm so sick" Haughey got let off because of his so called poor health and he now looks healthier than ever

He gets a standing ovation when he enters the yacht club's restaurant here in Howth where himself and gaybo are honourary members. Reason being he was the one who made sure they got the planning permission to build it in the first place. If you ever see it you'll notice it's a monstrosity that looks like a giant circus tent that ruins the view of every property on the sea front. There was major controversy when that was being built as there was 100's of objections to it, still it went ahead.

bonkey

Originally posted by dathi1
You think PJ, Burke are bad....wait till you get a load of: Chirac and Bereliscoini...Corruption at its corporate best in a federal superstate...... u aint seen nothin yet.

Give it a rest.

This is a topic about corruption in Irish politics. Its not another forum for your No2Nice campaign.

On topic...

I think its disgraceful. The tribunal cannot use its findings in a court of law. At best, the revenue commissioners could present a bill to the respective parties, and it is then up to them to show if they are not liable.

At best, this would mean that they pay taxes they should have paid, but (AFAIK) they cannot be hit with additional penalties, fines, prison sentences, etc. as all of that would require a court to prove wrongdoing, and once that happens....the tribunals findings cannot be used in evidence.

The whole affair has been a joke since day one, and will continue to be so.

jc

Cork

This is a topic about corruption in Irish politics. Its not another forum for your No2Nice campaign.

By EU standards - CJH was an angel.

Scandals in the EU were worse. There is no disgrace in admitting that. Neil Kinnock tried to uncover things out there .............I think they probably need tribunerals for around 1001 years.

Meh

Originally posted by bonkey
I think its disgraceful. The tribunal cannot use its findings in a court of law.

they cannot be hit with additional penalties, fines, prison sentences, etc. as all of that would require a court to prove wrongdoing, and once that happens....the tribunals findings cannot be used in evidence.

Using the tribunal's report as evidence in a criminal case would be unconstitutional, as Burke, Lowry, Lawlor and the rest of them had to be forced to appear in front of the tribunal, and the constitution (rightly) protects you from being forced to testify against yourself in a criminal case.

But I believe the DPP can use the report as a starting point for criminal investigations, even though it can't use the report directly as evidence in court.

mike65

I was going to start a thread on this yeasterday but was about to kill my PC with its keyboard instead!
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=65239&goto=newpost

This is a watershed moment in Irish politics, finally a presiding Justice has come out with an unequivical
judgment about the central figues, no Lindsay Tribunal
fence-sitting, no Beef Tribunal bland-out.

Ray Burke is guilty of corruption, bribery. As such the DPP must follow through with a criminal case
otherwise this republic is'nt worth a damn.

Mara is gone for now but he'll be back no doubt, Ahern is looking more and more like an idiot and knave.

The Dunlop section of the Tribunal starts next and it'll proberly bury quite a few senior FF names as what he has in his note book is dynamite by all accounts.

As regards the planning laws, well we're told they've been tightened up and bungs are less likely but if the
body politic is esentially one of career chancers then
laws will be got round.

Mike.

Typedef

How utterly unsurprising that when you are a politician you get a 'tribunal' to investigate allegations of inpropiety, when in reality for Joe Soap Citizen(Typedef) you get a criminal investigation and then get yourself thrown in jail.

The sad thing is the public not only stands for it, but seems to get an absurd sense of enjoyment out these extremely costly tribunals.

Obviously Michael Lowry abused his position and should have been subject to a criminal investigation, who needs a two tiered Europe when you have a two tiered Irish justice system? Tribunals for the political and business elite and Joe Soap criminal courts for the proles.

Cork

The Dunlop section of the Tribunal starts next and it'll proberly bury quite a few senior FF names as what he has in his note book is dynamite by all accounts.

Here we go again. On the road to no where:
By pointing at FF- you fail to notice Mister Lowry or members of other partys. Do you think corruption is cofined to FF. It is in erevy little village in Ireland. Do you think it is confined to politicians? It is not. It is widespread.

gandalf

Cork I don't think you'll find anyone argueing that most of the Politcial parties of this state haven't been touched by corruption. Its just Fianna Fail are the most corrupt and I feel safe saying that.

Bertie Ahern should go as well, he either knew about the corruption which he therefore ignored or worse helped conceal or he didn't know about it which means he shouldn't even be allowed to run McDonalds let alone this country.

Gandalf.

dathi1

This is a topic about corruption in Irish politics. Its not another forum for your No2Nice campaign.

hang on a minute...the guy running the yes campaign for FF had to resign for the above. all very trustworthy people.

Cork

Its just Fianna Fail are the most corrupt and I feel safe saying that.

What makes you so sure?

forget the tabloid headlines!
Forget our witch hunt tribunerals!

why are people going back to the soft targets of CJH & Burke?

FF, FG & Labour all have questions to answer.

mike65

Cork, I was'nt even thinking about corruption being confined to one party, Mr Lowry shows that to not be the case. Why even members of corruption free "new" SF may have a few skeletons buried hidden in the closet..

FF meanwhile are steeped in it, as its part of thier own little culture of hail fellow well met with a nod and a wink, "whatever you say, say nothing" mentality.

Mike.

Macker

By pointing at FF- you fail to notice Mister Lowry or members of other partys

Me thinks Lowry is up in front of another tribunal...not Flood , when it comes to planning FF are the kings ,
Lowry just abused planning with his own house.

Macker

Cork

FF meanwhile are steeped in it, as its part of thier own little culture of hail fellow well met with a nod and a wink, "whatever you say, say nothing" mentality.

How many people opened non residental bank accounts to avoid paying DIRT tax? 300000?


How many business people avoid/evade paying tax?

How many business people avoid/evade rates?

How many people don't pay their TV licence?

How many business people ripped us off with the introduction of the Euro?

People like CJH did some good as well - free transport to OAPS - A measure only recently introduced in the UK by labour.

Lowry just abused planning with his own house

Are you serious? or are you giving me an example of an under statement?

mike65

Originally posted by Cork


How many people opened non residental bank accounts to avoid paying DIRT tax? 300000?


How many business people avoid/evade paying tax?

How many business people avoid/evade rates?

How many people don't pay their TV licence?

How many business people ripped us off with the introduction of the Euro?

The issues above are part of the culture propagated by
FF and the men in mohair suits which have run the state for most of its existance. With dodgy-dealing at the top, its hardly surprising the common man and woman followed on...as a side point, I wonder how many boards.ie members have such accounts or have family with "hot money"?

Mike.

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
What about singers/songwriters?
What about Ireland's tax exiles?

There's a tax exemption for songwriters as "creative people"

They're not avoiding or evading tax. Ditto writers.


"Ireland's" actual (as opposed to the bogus non-resident account holders) tax exiles are just that - exiles. If they're not domiciled in this country they are not required to pay tax. They pay tax in the country in which they are domiciled. If they now happen to reside in a country that has a low rate of income tax or no income tax at all that's just their good fortune.

If they choose to live elsewhere for whatever reason that's their own damn business. You may not like it but it's not illegal. If you choose to debate the moral argument that's entirely another issue - nothing to do with corruption.

While it's true that there is still a great amount of tax evasion and avoidance in the Irish economy, stop waving around a view like a baton to beat people with. Get a few facts and the arguments will stand up a little more.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
How many people opened non residental bank accounts to avoid paying DIRT tax? 300000?

WAsn't it 300,000 accounts, not 300,000 people. With people having multiple accounts of less than £500?

Originally posted by Cork
People like CJH did some good as well - free transport to OAPS - A measure only recently introduced in the UK by labour.

You make it sound like he paid for it out of his own pocket. A comparable amount of cash would have beeen better for said OAPs.

Von

Originally posted by Blade
He gets a standing ovation when he enters the yacht club's restaurant here in Howth where himself and gaybo are honourary members. Reason being he was the one who made sure they got the planning permission to build it in the first place. If you ever see it you'll notice it's a monstrosity that looks like a giant circus tent that ruins the view of every property on the sea front. There was major controversy when that was being built as there was 100's of objections to it, still it went ahead.

Yeah Lors, that Yacht Club looks f**kin terrible. Charlie was a bit like one of the old New York Tammany Hall bosses.

Boss Plunkett said "Supposin' it's a new bridge they're goin' to build. I get tipped off and I buy as much property as I can that has to be taken for approaches. I sell at my own price later on and drop some more money in the bank."

That's how Charlie operated. People would watch him and see where he was buying property and then get in on it. I think Temple Bar was one example.

Another of the Boss's pearls - "The politician who steals is worse than a thief. He is a fool. With the grand opportunities all around for the man with a political pull, there's no excuse for stealin' a cent. "

Declan Kiberd has written some interesting stuff about the emergence of FF's class of "fixers". He reckons that era of parochial corruption is finished.

Cork

There's a tax exemption for songwriters as "creative people"

There are many more "creative people" in this country who have to pay tax.

While it's true that there is still a great amount of tax evasion and avoidance in the Irish economy, stop waving around a view like a baton to beat people with. Get a few facts and the arguments will stand up a little more.

Many facts are in the controllers and auditors general report.

On another seperate issue - What post was Dick Spring appointed to in the FEXCO group of companies?

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
There are many more "creative people" in this country who have to pay tax.

You're missing the point entirely (or just attempting to deflect the issue)

You said:

People are still evading and avoiding tax.

and followed it up with

What about singers/songwriters?

I pointed out that they weren't evading or avoiding tax and that it was unfair to imply that they were.

Your response ignored this and instead chose to say something like "well there are others who shoudn't have to pay it then"which is contradicting the point you were making in the first place.

Or if you think they should have to pay tax, that's fine for you to say. Just say that then and make a point of it rather than saying that they're tax evaders (because they're not).

Many of the creative professions don't actually pay tax on their earnings from their creative output. Add in "writers" and "artists" to your list. And others. They don't pay income tax on these earnings either.

Many facts are in the controllers and auditors general report

<rant>
Of course they are. Bring some of those facts with you when you're making a point, that's all I'm saying. And if those facts back up what you're saying, quote them. And preferably make reference to them. What you're saying is that facts exist. Of course they do. They just may not agree with what you're saying as you're making sweeping statements and failing to back them up. Which is what you initially criticised people for when they were talking about Fianna Fail. Stop going around in circles.
</rant>

The Gopher

My mothers cousin once accidendtly spilled coffee on Rays wifes fur coat in the 70s while working in Bewleys.
Beat that Ben Dunne and Charlie Haughey(wait,arent they involved in one of the other 40 odd tribunals currently in session?)

Cork

I suppose that I should not have lumped our “CREATIVE PROPLE” who are making use of tax avoidance schemes with People who are not declaring their income that is tax evasion.

But, lets take the horse racing industry. It is a very important industry to Ireland. But the tax breaks are pretty generous. The Horse racing industry is very risky. How often – do you have a mega horse? That horse may fall & do themselves an injury. Heaven Knows.

I saw a seaside shop this summer – stocked with buckets and spades. It did no business all summer. It too is a very risky business – it depends on the climate. It does not get the tax breaks as the horse racing industry does.

Now, Getting back to tax evasion. How many people do “nixers”? How many of our self-employed stretch the truth when doing up their annual accounts? How many non-resident accounts were there? How many credit union members declare dividends on their savings?

Yet people can sit back pointing their fingers at CJH. CJH did a lot of good. He did some things that he should not have done. There is little excuse for these. But these tribunerals are not the court of law. We are not judge, jury and executioner.

Another example, are the current cutbacks. A lot of people in our media must have been living on the moon during the election. People like Shane Ross, Matt Cooper and others highlighted that the government finances were not in great shape. Many capital projects were either being cut back or abandoned. People knew what they were voting for. Irish people per head of population buy a lot of newspapers. You would have to get up early in the morning to pull the wool over the eyes of Irish people.

Final point – There IS corruption in the country. We need more watchdogs. Our internal audit service within the government needs to be like the IRS in the states. This is where resources are needed.

Cork

I just wish to say that I think that wrong doers who evade taxation or do public life a dis service need to be jailed.

Our jails are full of people who comitted petty crime. Tax evasion is a greater crime

mike65

Nah, I would'nt jail them as that costs money
and deprives rapists and such like a good home.

Rather I'd have them first made poor by seeing they're made liable for legal costs, have thier "bungs" inflation adjusted and made to repay that amount, have any assets bought with the bungs confiscated and sold off...what else? Oh yes they can then do community service by picking up litter the whole length of the M50!

That'll teach em.

Mike.

Shinji

Yet people can sit back pointing their fingers at CJH. CJH did a lot of good. He did some things that he should not have done. There is little excuse for these. But these tribunerals are not the court of law. We are not judge, jury and executioner.

Okay, let's get this in context shall we?

If I fail to declare some of my income for taxation, I've fiddled the system. It's wrong and I shouldn't do it, and it breaks a basic responsibility entrusted in me as a citizen of Ireland.

However, there's a certain matter of scale here. What CJH did was a similar wrongdoing on a grand scale; and worse, he did it while in the highest position of responsibility that can be accorded to anyone in this state, by the people of this state. The people of Ireland handed him power and trust, and he flagrantly abused those things to his own end.

Worse, he nurtured a culture of abuse of trust which has propogated right down to the present day. His amazingly brazen disrespect for the Irish people and for the trust vested in him has been indirectly responsible for much of the terrible government we have seen in the past twenty years - and can be blamed for the fact that now, at a time when Ireland needs strong leadership more than ever, our political system is too busy with internal wrangling and self-recrimination to govern the country effectively.

There are scales of wrongdoing, Cork, and the comparison you are making is way off the mark; it is like the difference between murder and genocide. When you're tracking corruption, you aim for the source before mopping up the mess, and that is what Charles Haughey is. This serpent may have many heads but by god he was the first of them and the biggest of them.

And don't feed me that line of crap about all the great things CJH did in government either, because I've heard it so often that I'm sick of it. There have been countless rulers of nations in the recent history of our world who have done great things for their countries without having to stick all ten of their greedy fingers into the pie at the same time.

Cork

This serpent may have many heads but by god he was the first of them and the biggest of them

Hold on there!

CJH took money from individuals _ It was not state money.

Has any tribuneral named political favours he did?

Would it have been OK - if he waited until he was out of politics and then took a seat on a board of a private company?

Wrong is Wrong.

Standards are Standards.

Double Standards need to be avoided.