Eiroms Pairgain aka DACS aka splitters are illegal!

spongebob

see this Report for the ODTR page 42

which refers to Eircoms own published local loop unbundling doc, highly technical but in a nutshell (my wording)

'if you hand over a line to another carrier ...a customer... you must remove the clutter which can affect its operation'

Ovum concluded obliquely that the ordinary Eircom customer (ie not another Telco) is also entitled to have these removed with the bald statement.

"Eircom may not deploy these systems"

...if there is any possibility that the customer may require ADSL

It would appear that the mere act of asking for your line to be upgraded to ADSL is also, ipso facto, a clear instruction to remove spitting technology that may affect its operation. This would have the side effect of improving analogue modem operation...in the short term of course.

from the sofa.

M

yellum

Is this only for areas where dsl will be installed or any area at all ?

spongebob

Then contact the ODTR and ask for clarification through their contact form.

Last I heard, NO AREA in Ireland is being excluded from broadband in the medium to long term......meaning that ADSL will be universal by 2020 or so.

M

LoBo

... and is there any easy way to check if your home line has been 'split' ? (I've never connected beyond 36kbps)

Kevok

1. White/Grey/Cream Box on telephone pole, inside your house if you have a second phone line (really 2 halves), or on the exterior of your house.

2. The box mentioned above usually has the word "Multigain" with a number after it. i.e. Multigain 2000.

3. Connect at speeds of 28800, 31200, or 33600 if you're lucky, but never higher.

Anyone care to add to the list?


Actually I'd like to see where this goes. I have a split line, and my argument with Eircom up to now has been the poor quality of the Data part of the line but thier T&Cs only cover to 14400bps.

Hmmmm, it may be an idea to start a letter writing campaign to the ODTR to get them to set an enforced minimum (hopefully higher than 14400bps).

L1011

amazing.... i was told it wasn't Eirocms responsibility that my eircom.net account connected at 4.8.... must get back to them

seamus

amazing.... i was told it wasn't Eirocms responsibility that my eircom.net account connected at 4.8.... must get back to them

It's not. Eircom are only legally obliged to provide you a phoneline with ability for upto 9600bps. They must remove the DACS if you change carrier, but seeing as you are already getting 4.8 - a very good speed for Ireland - calling them will do no good. Knowing them, if you let them fiddle with your line, you'll lose some of your speed

Just AMOI - When my parents moved into their new house, my Dad had 2 new lines installed for his office (1 fax/internet, 1 voice), and both connect at 5.5Kbps (their house is essentially sitting on the exchange). Obviously errorcom installed 2 new lines without the use of any DACS....is there a specific way you can demand they put in a brand new line, rather than a DACS? My Dad only paid normal for each new line, yet would have paid the same, if the lines had been created using DACS.......

spongebob

What you say is correct except for 1 inconsistency.

The other carrier is customer because they pay rental for the line, a customer is entitled to have the crap removed.... are not customers?

The OVUM report for the ODTR says that the customer ....whoever that may be ....another carrier or J. Soap ESQ is entitled NEVER to have this crap on their line in the first place.

Any new line that is ordered should be uncluttered........that is what it sez, plainly.

If your line is rubbish, you order a NEW one and deal with Eircom on that basis, they only agreed to these standards in April 2002.

They have some getouts on pre April 2002 lines. They do not have getouts on POST April 2002 lines unless you let them off the hook. They are only allowed to have one standard for one line rental fee.....simple.

Then you cancel the old line coz its crap.

Ahem!

M

fabien

It's actually on page 44 of the ODTR's "Broadband network rollout in Ireland" report, and this is the extract I think:

"Technical issues:
DSL technologies have a number of technical features which limit their use in certain circumstances. These are:
• Some access providers use simpler pair-gain (sometimes called ‘1+1 carrier’) systems to deliver telephony service. This is sometimes used for second-line installations when a shortage of local loop line plant prevents a dedicated wire pair being used. These systems are not compatible with DSL systems and cannot
be deployed in the same cable bundle. Under the copper frequency management plan, agreed between ODTR and the Irish operators (Copper Loop Frequency Management Plan: Local Loop Unbundling, April 2002.
http://www.eircom.ie/bveircom/pdf/clfmp.pdf),eircom may not deploy these systems and will use best endeavours to replace them, where they exist."

And here is the bit from the Eircom report:

"To leverage the benefits of the CLFMP it is necessary to restrict the amount of non compliant equipment in the network. Eircom will make reasonable endeavours not to make any further deployments that do not comply with the CLFMP. Systems in service which do not comply will be tolerated provided that they do not cause interference to compliant systems. In the case where interference does occur eircom may need, in certain circumstances, to retain non compliant systems in place
to meet its regulatory obligations; however eircom will take all reasonable measures to alleviate the interference.

[...] When a cable is used for sub loop deployments of this type before any unbundled, lineshare or Bitstream services, it shall be considered to be initially a sub loop prioritised cable.
[...] Where sub loop deployments on a sub loop prioritised cable are found to be interfering with new services on unbundled loops or line share services in this cable, eircom shall use best endeavours to replace the systems with spectrally compatible solutions [...]where technically and economically viable.
[...]
7. General principles
[...] I. Any transmission system on any pair
[...]II. CLFMP applies equally to all users
The requirements of the CLFMP will apply equally to all users of the network including all access seekers and eircom."

Comments: "where technically and economically viable" means they won't remove the pair gain system it if they say it's too costly to add a new line...one line that hurts. It's like "We will always do it, except when we don't want to"....

dahamsta

They must remove the DACS if you change carrier

Just to be clear on this: If I sign up with UTV, will Eircom be forced to remove the splitter on my line or not? If so, who has responsibility, UTV or Eircom?

I'd be interested to hear UTV's position on this, if anyone is around?

adam

spongebob

You quoted the eircom document yourself.

Applies equally to all users

The "where technically and economically viable" clause refers to areas such as Islands and National Parks or scenic areas like the Dingle peninsula where it is not feasible to run Copper for aesthetic or overweening cost issues. In that case Eircom may supply wireless narrowband instead of a copper local loop. If you are in one of these areas you can NOT get copper, you must take wireless (c. ISDN speeds)

Everywhere else is copper! Everybody else is EQUAL.

The getout clause does NOT apply to roadside poles where no trenching is required because all Eircom have to do is hang more copper off one of their own poles. This can be done quickly and easily.

The getout clause does NOT apply to Ducts where there is spare capacity and where no further digging is required.

If Eircom are lying to you then walk the road back to the local exchange and pop open a few manhole covers to see if the ducts have space in them. Then kill their arguments one by one. If the engineer sez blah blah at the corner of blah ask him to point it out to you. If you don't see a problem its because there isn't one.

Eircom lie, it is an institutional failure of theirs from top to bottom, if they were like a certain lager manufacturer we woldn't be posting in here, would we?


M

Martin-UTVi

Just to be clear on this: If I sign up with UTV, will Eircom be forced to remove the splitter on my line or not? If so, who has responsibility, UTV or Eircom?

Completely down to Eircom. We are handling your traffic, but the line and rental is still handled by Eircom.

dahamsta

Hokay, thanks Martin. Someone's already asked the question though: Does UTV have /any/ rights here? I know Eircom are obliged to supply /the user/ with 9.6/14.4, but what about the fact that they're effectively supplying /you/ with a substandard product?

Take me as an example: I have no real incentive to move to UTV at the moment[1], because I use the Internet very little at home; because my connectivity is rubbish (14.4k). However, if my connectivity was better, well, that's obviously a bigger incentive for me.

And to follow on from that, say I /have/ signed up for UTV, but I'm still on 14.4k. I'm obviously going to use the Internet far less, because it's simply not productive. That means I'm going to take your lite package, whereas I should really be on the full one.

You can see that this isn't just about principles, there's an important financial aspect as well. Sure, it may not be huge, but a customer's a customer, right? At the very least, you should be getting a discount from Eircom for the substandard product right?

adam


[1] I /will/ sign up to UTV, purely to spite Eircom. However, I'm not using my own line at the moment, so I have to clear it with The Boss.

oscarBravo

Just a side point on this: I can't have ISDN (!!) because of my distance from the exchange, and because I am on a split line. In the course of my ongoing whinging campaign, I was told that I was actually lucky to have the split line, because a full pair directly from the exchange (~8km away) would have such severe capacitance problems that I would never get a data connection at all. I'm not sure how large a pinch of salt to take that with, but...

It's interesting to note also that I have a second line, provided over a WLL connection. This connection is technically capable of WDSL, but Eircom won't even offer me ISDN on it. Sigh.

spongebob

a POTS or analogue phone line should work UP to 5miles or 8Km or 25000 feet.

all bets are off after that, ironically a pairgain may improve the situation beyond that.

your WLL line ISTR should operate to 40000 ft or 8 miles, can't remember the details, it is an ETSI standard. WLL and Dect are now being merged into a sorta ISDNWLL but I am not an RF expert seeHere

It is supposed to provide performance beyond the reach of POTS.

ISDN on pots lines works to 3.5 miles or 17500 feet but I think it should work over WLL at 5 miles which is around where you are.

It is all being merged into DECT it seems so I would ask the ODTR what ETSI standards are being enforced for WLL in Ireland and who/where these are being deployed. Standard are standards, Eircom isn't allowed to buy some crap from a supplier and then foist it on their customers if it isn't ETSI compliant.

The Eircom customer has a choice of terminal equipment supplier, Currys for phones for example, and must know what standard the kit is compliant with before shelling out.

Unfortunately, no guarantees are in the offing from regulators as regards ISDN, check the USO document from the EU discussed here over past months to see your forthcoming basic consumer rights, its a pdf , search for IDSN in there.

Bidirectional VSAT is also available in extremis...

My earlier comments in this thread were for he benefit of those well within the POTS limitation who are being split, even within a quarter mile of the exchange. That is inexcusable and fortunately is now clearly illegal and Eircom have admitted as much since April.


M