Is it worth complaining to the ODTR about Vodafone?

Tom Dunne

Hi All,

I know you usually discuss fixed-line operators here, but I would like to let you know about how capable Vodafone are of shafting the customer too.

<begin rant>

A friend was going to Russia last week to see the Ireland match. He didn't want to bring his work mobile in case somebody from work bothered him, so he took mine, with the understanding he would pay the bill. He ran up approx. E450 of calls, which is no problem, he is going to pay.

Now, fast forward to Thursday last, my phone suddenly stops working, can't make or receive calls. Rang Vodafone and the goon started off, "Ah yes, Mr. XX, you have been with us a long time and have always paid your bills" (I pay by direct debit). "But you have run up a bill of E450 in roaming charges". Yes, I said, so, why the $#%$#ing hell have you cut me off.

"It's because in the past when people have got a bill that large they usually never pay it, disputing the fact they made those calls". So I told him the story and told him that the bill would be paid. He said that unless they get half it up front, they will not re-connect. I demanded to know why I wasn't informed, he said "We usually leave a message". I did not receive a phone call, nor a message.

</end rant>

So, what do you think? I am certainly going to terminate my contract with Vodafone. Is it worth complaining to the ODTR about this? I see their remit covers (Quote) "all kinds of transmission networks".

TD.

DeVore

omg thats unbelievable!

Are you seriously saying they said (effectively) "we're preemptively cutting you off because we *think* you are not going to pay the bill??" Jesus, I'd tell your mate to give you 450 quid and not pay the feckers at all!

You can tell them why (preferably in a letter). "I didnt pay you because you told me thats what you expected me to do."

Unreal.

DeV.

DeVore

On second thoughts, go to the papers with it. I'm sure they'd cover it. Embarrass the bejaysus out of Vodaphone!

DeV.

PiE

As well as that, they've hiked up the minimum amount of credit you can buy from €10 to €15.

Bah.

Think I'll switch to Meteor, afaik their minimum is €6.50 or thereabouts?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

sunbeam

That's just ridiculous. I've run up bills bigger than that using HSCSD for downloads (can only get a crappy 14400 bps connection with landline as I live in the middle of nowhere and I used to live in a rented house where the live-in landlord refused to let a landline be installed) and nobody has ever threatened to cut me off.

I'd definitely go to the media on this one.

Tom Dunne

Media contacted.

I would dearly love not to pay them as DeV. suggests, but that's just not me.

I'm going to write a letter of complaint to them, for all the good that will do me.

I wouldn't mind, but I have used this phone abroad before, granted I have never had a bill this high. I have also never missed a payment as I pay by direct debit. As DeV. said, they cut me off because they presume I won't pay. They simply have no valid reason to cut me off.

All it would have taken is a simple phone call saying they have noticed an unusual amount of phone calls, I could have explained the situation, and none of this would have happened.

Ah well, they will me minus one customer by the end of this week.

sceptre

I'm shocked TBH.

You let them know that the bill is fine - they tell you to pay half up front or they'll not reconnect you.

If you want to be releatively honest, insist that they reconnect you before paying them a penny, reminding them to drop some of the rental charge as they've chosen for no good reason (and in violation of your contract with them) to cut you off.

If they reconnect you, consider paying them the money. If they insist on getting some money from you, don't bother.

And do complain. They can't cut you off just because they feel like it. You've a perfect record of paying bills on time. Small claims court would have a field day. If you do eventually pay them the bill, sue them for a few hundred for inconvenience but make it stick.

My brother ran up a similar bill with O2 when he was in Spain for two weeks. No hassle whatever from them - as a perfect payer, they assumed he was good for it.

They're presuming that you won't pay. They're expecting you not to pay. On that basis, they're not giving you the service you've paid for in advance (through rental in advance). Screw them. It wouldn't be something I'd normally say, or at least post in public, but under these circumstances I think they started it.

ODTR, papers and small claims court. And the ODCA - http://www.odca.ie/

_sheep

They are already assuming you wont pay, and have taken the said action, why pay, well i suppose its not as simple as that tho....

Lets pretend they decide to take futher action, all you have to say is 'inconvence'(missing lots of v. important calls etc etc) or the like and they sure as hell cant take the full sum off you.

Ask them to reconnect but if they look for some of the money up-front, just tell them where to go, they have no justifable reason to disconnect you considering you are paying by direct debet - i mean they take the money you dont give it to them

Well thats just my 2 cents but i know i sure as hell would'nt give them a penny condering all the hassle.

- jack

Balfa

Originally posted by PiE
As well as that, they've hiked up the minimum amount of credit you can buy from €10 to €15.

Yeah, but they've increased the time you have to use that top up to... either 6 or 12 months... instead of 1. so it's better value really.

NeRb666

I would definitely take it further....I ran up a €360 bill in the US this year with O2/Digifone, and I didn't have any problems like that.

sceptre

Originally posted by Muirthile
Shouldn't this thread be moved to Nets/Comms or Wireless? It doesn't really have anything to with IOFFL, if I'm not mistaken.

Ordinarily I'd say yes, but wireless doesn't cover it (following Corinthian's guidelines* for that board) - ditto Nets/Comms - Verb's "technical issues relating to computer networks and communications")

However,

Complaint/opinions about the current state of irish telecoms are best kept to the IrelandOffline forum

As it's not a technical issue I'm inclined to ignore it having less to do with IrelandOffline's aims (just this once:)) in the interests of it being a general consumer issue that really doesn't fit in anywhere else (even Business/Economy)


*though, despite the guidelines many mobile issues do end up on Wireless. Still aimed as more of a technical issue board though

Tom Dunne

Just to let you know, Sceptre, I wasn't sure where to post it either. I had thought about Wireless, but I felt it would be a little (and just a little) more relevant to IOFFL to show it's not just the fixed line operators that shaft their customers.

I'm intrigued by the suggestion of the small claims courts. I am not the kind of person to sue, but I am incensed by the way Vodafone have carried on. The inconvenience is quite large actually - I am abroad at the moment and my wife has the phone on all the time. If I am not talking to her, I am sending her text messages. So for a while, I was unable to contact her. Hmmmmm.....

sceptre

Originally posted by tom dunne
I'm intrigued by the suggestion of the small claims courts.

As a pretty poor law student, I don't know whether the SCC can deal with more than actual damages - I'm sure there are plenty of people here who know

Slutmonkey57b

Effectively what they have done is libellous - they have falsely accused you of being a bad creditor, which you aren't. The only difficulty with suing them for said libel is taht they havent (to your knowledge) disseminated that libel outside the company.

You may be able to say that the libel was spread to the staff of the company but this may not hold up in court as evidence of full scale libel, however it's worth having a word with a lawyer...

MarkR

Have a look in your local paper to see if there is a free legal advice centre, i know there is one here in shannon. They have overstepped the mark here. Next thing it could be no bill phones from people from certain social classes etc. Damn the man!

spongebob

I know what happened, a fraud detector attached to the billing system started to squeal.

So they rang the customer, a good idea.

The customer accepted liability in full, the squealer should have been turned off.

This should stay in here IMO , its a major regulator issue after the Small Claims court has finished with it.

If you have been reported to credit agencies such as Equifax you can sue their asses off , if not max them in the small claims court, ideally in Ballydehob or somewhere a long way from Dublin coz the arrogant asshoes wont show up and you will win.

M

yankinlk

you have GOT to complain about this issue with them. Ask to speak to the manager, and then if you get no satisfaction ask to speak to the manager's boss. ESCALATE!

not enough people complain properly in this country (remember to always be polite, it's the other person's job to listen and they didnt cause the problem, so be nice)

forget the media, and forget switching to o2 (the devil you know is better than the devil you dont) get something for free from vodafone or THREATEN to go to media, but if you go there first, sell your story

vinnyfitz

Yes
Check that the contract you signed with Vodafone did not allow them take this sort of high handed action and then complain to the ODTR and demand that they instruct Vodafone to cease this sort of behaviour.
Then publish their response here. This is an IOFFL issue - the more we know about how powerful and effective the ODTR is in regulating all telecoms operators, the better equipped we are to deal with them on internet access.

MarkR

I used to be a supervisor in a call centre, and like yanklink said, complain. Ask to speak to a supervisor straight away, and explain the details. They will most likely realise their mistake and fix the problem. Don't be satisfied with this though, you should also confirm that there has been no permanent record logged with a credit reference agency. Not sure about here, as i deal with the uk market, but there, it could affect future loan applications, credit bills like esb/gas/phone etc, even a mortgage application. In short, get it sorted! Advise them that you will be passing the matter on to other authoristies, and find out what corporate policy they are following by cutting you off. Give'em hell, i'd love if something like this would happen to me, I love a good debate...

seamus

Originally posted by yankinlk
you have GOT to complain about this issue with them. Ask to speak to the manager, and then if you get no satisfaction ask to speak to the manager's boss. ESCALATE!..................

.............to go to media, but if you go there first, sell your story

Do everything he said. Yes, it may be fun to shock them, but it'll be a hell of a lot easier for you if you complain to them. As yankinlk said, if you're not satisfied with the answers you are getting, escalate. If someone tells you, that they are the highest you can go, then tell them to email the 'Fraud & Security' mailbox and demand a callback from someone in Risk Management (who deal with that mailbox). I will check out on wednesday if this is standard procedure, or maybe PM Fidelis and he can find out sooner.

Canadian

Just another suggestion-

Agree to pay your bill in full.
Ask for a full refund for your phone (or reduce your bill by that amount)
Quit and join O2.

Seems to me like they fired you as a customer.... make sure they pay for it and move on.

Beruthiel

it would seem the Minority Report is here sooner than we thought!
I can't believe they gave you that as an excuse to cut you off, I would not pay under any circumstances now, give them hell, they deserve it!

Lemming

Originally posted by Beruthiel
I can't believe they gave you that as an excuse to cut you off, I would not pay under any circumstances now, give them hell, they deserve it!

The problem with this course of action, as tempting as it may be, is that if external credit agencies are involved, you are setting yourself up for an unmerciful screwing when you try to get loans or anything else of that nature.

I'd pay it in full, to prove them wrong in the first place (and to cover my ass if credit agencies are involved), then stir the sh*t, demanding some concessions, etc.

Tom Dunne

Yes, there was never any question of the bill being paid (bear in mind, that I haven't even got a bill yet, this is all based on the assumption I won't pay). Up until now, I hadn't even thought of the credit rating. But, no matter how bad they treat me, I am willing to pay for a service that was used.

I have sent them an e-mail for now (I am out of the country, so if I don't get any joy, I will follow up with a letter). I have stated my case that I haven't missed a payment, used the phone abroad before and wasn't contacted to see if I was going to pay.

I have also asked about my credit standing, re-connection without any kind of payment up front (as a goodwill gesture) and lastly, some form of compensation.

I have gone off the small claims courts idea and I have no response from the ODTR yet.

Watch this space!

Tom Dunne

Just got an e-mail from the ODTR saying "Thank you for your mail...regarding the level of service provided by Vodafone.....we will approach NTL on your behalf..."

I hope NTL will have a word with Vodafone for me.

Still, it's great to get a response from the ODTR. At least they are trying.

segadreamcast

"Thank you for your mail...regarding the level of service provided by Vodafone.....we will approach NTL on your behalf..."

Heh, I wonder what NTL's response will be :P.

sceptre

Not the first time the ODTR have made a booby like this. See ozpass's thread over in the Cable/MMDS section of ICDG, where they promised to have contact with Eircom about his problems with Chorus.

Bloody hell - it's not like it's a typing error - they could at least try to give the appearance that they're good for something.

Michael Collins

Originally posted by NoelRock
Heh, I wonder what NTL's response will be :P.

Probably something like "We're terribly sorry. Your area will be upgraded in 6 months time, we're sending out forms about our dial-up service"

The trouble with these big companies is they really won't care if you just cancel and go to O2 instead. Complain to Vodafone is probably the best method first of all, if that fails then give your story to some sort of media, where Vodafone are likely to loose potential customers, preferably some radio program like Joe Duffy where people will hear your story and ring in to complain about the recent 40c rise on their Ready To Go cards and you'll have a general Vodafone bashing session

Just make sure they don't get away with this...

zynaps

Originally posted by Michael Collins
Complain to Vodafone is probably the best method first of all, if that fails then give your story to some sort of media, where Vodafone are likely to loose potential customers, preferably some radio problem like Joe Duffy where people will hear your story and ring in to complain about the recent 40c prise on their Ready To Go cards and you'll have a general Vodafone bashing session

Just make sure they don't get away with this...

Well, I'm glad I've still got me free meteor student phone.
Took me 6 months to use up the £50 credit that came with the phone in December 2001 :P

How about everyone who's interested spread the story when you're otherwise lacking in topics of conversation? This happens to me a lot.

Word of mouth's a great thing

De Rebel

Originally posted by tom dunne
So, what do you think? I am certainly going to terminate my contract with Vodafone.
TD.

Don't !!

That just lets them get away with it and inconveniences you. Take a stand.

This sort of thing really is a disgrace. For all their education, PR executives, Customer Service focuses, etc. etc. these outfits just havn’t a clue. Imagine if they said “We are sorry for the inconvenience, fax us a signed statement (if they must have something) indicating that you will pay the bill in full (which you are contracted to do in any event) and we would like to offer you Eur 25 in free credit as a gesture of goodwill. But no, oh no, this dreadful semi-state (I know, but it lingers) bully boy monopolistic attitude continues.

I had a similar problem with these people previously. It was resolved to my satisfaction. The details of my case aren’t relevant. I would suggest the following for your consideration – don’t mind all that escalation crap on the website – go straight to the top, the Company Secretary is the Legal persona of the company, she will understand your letter:

A letter to the Ms Ann Donnelly, Company Secretary, Vodafone, MountainView, Leopardstown, Dublin 18. (you may want to confirm that this is the correct name and address for the Company Secretary – Ring 18 00 22 55 88 (they pay for that call!)

First paragraph – outline your track record with Vodafone/Eircell, one short paragraph

Second paragraph – indicate the key uses you make of this service (rely heavily on this account for your livelihood, essential contact with sick/infirm/elderly relatives/infants, essential contact with spouse when travelling, work callouts, etc.), one short/medium paragraph

Third paragraph – state the facts of the disconnection , one short paragraph

Fourth paragraph - list your exchanges with Vodafone Customer Service, and your dissatisfaction at the outcome and current situation, one short paragraph

Fifth paragraph – state the inconvenience/loss especially any quzntifiable costs/losses, be generous, one medium paragraph

Sixth paragraph – Ask that she investigates your case as a matter of great urgency, reconnects you immediately without fine, penalty or charge (if applicable), and makes good your losses, out of pocket expenses, (i.e. cost of calls on alternative services), etc. one medium paragraph

Seventh paragraph – Indicate that in the event of you not receiving a satisfactory outcome in (say) 10 days, and given that the disconnection suffered was the consequence of grossly unfair, unwarranted, unexpected and precipitous action on their part that you will hold them fully responsible and liable for all costs howsoever arising, including but not limited to costs of re connection, costs associated with making of alternative arrangements and any legal costs incurred. Finally, state that you will also hold them responsible and fully liable for all consequential damages.

As has previously been alluded to there may be defamation/libellous issues here. I wouldn't mention that (not yet anyway) - It will scare them into silence.

One other suggestion. Under the terms of the Data Protection Act 1998 you are entitled to a copy of everything that Vodafone (or anyone else) hold on you on computer. They actually type a log of every call, with a summary of the content. (Honestly!!) Ring their legal department and ask for a copy. Don't take no for an answer. They are entitled to charge you a maximum of IEP5 for the service.

Regarding your Credit Rating, I believe that the Irish Credit Bureau is the main Credit reference agency in this country. Vodafone are not members here here and here I am unsure if there are other credit reference agencies active here, you could always Vodafone the question "What credit reference agencies do you use" or you could contact the Office of the Director of Consumer Affairs

Roll on true number portability - now re-scheduled for 31/12/2002 - another ODTR fiasco - its the one thing that prevents us walking in these situations.

dahamsta

Excellent post.

adam

De Rebel

Originally posted by dahamsta
Excellent post.

adam

And there was i worried that you might accuse me of being flatulent (ahmmm verbose) again !!

Dun

I went roaming in Venice in July with Vodafone (Ready To Go), and when I flew into Stansted I noticed that my last fiver of credit was gone. When I got back to Ireland, another €5 was taken out when I topped up with another ten. I presumed that it was like the old text messaging situation where you could text w/o credit and they would take it out when you topped up next. I had made loadsa calls, so I thought that was bought right anyway.

I was rather shocked to get a text message from them a few days later saying that due to a technical fault, calls were not billed to my phone until I returned. The bit that shocked me was

As a gesture of goodwill, we are reimbursing the credit to your phone

And they did - something like €11, even though they I had made the calls..

Strange world

sunbeam

..involves a postcard I received last week suggesting I change my phone a friend for free number to the e-merge isp number. After numerous phonecalls to Vodafone and sending them the card in question to prove I wasn't having them on they tell me it was all a big mistake and *several* customers received this in error. As they make a small fortune out of me in HSCSD calls it would have been nice.....

seamus

Originally posted by De Rebel

One other suggestion. Under the terms of the Data Protection Act 1998 you are entitled to a copy of everything that Vodafone (or anyone else) hold on you on computer. They actually type a log of every call, with a summary of the content. (Honestly!!)

Confirmed. They have a small db on every call you've made to Customer Services since you've joined them...what time you rang, how long you were on for, and what your problem was.

Roll on true number portability - now re-scheduled for 31/12/2002 - another ODTR fiasco - its the one thing that prevents us walking in these situations.

Full number portability is a nightmare and should never have been implemented. How will you know what network people are on without asking them? You'll spend 20 mins to someone, thinking that you're just using your free minutes, only to discover a €2/3 bill on your account later. Whoops, OT, I keep doing that today.....

Tom Dunne

Well, I am one unhappy bunny.

Complaied to the ODTR. Nice chap, he complained to Vodafone. They claimed that all I had to do was ring them and they would re-connect me without any upfront payment, all nicely worded and apologetic.

So they are telling the ODTR one thing and me another. I rang Vodafone yesterday, told the poor unfortunate twat what Vodafone had told the ODTR and after a lot of to-ing and fro-ing, she was to put me through to the credit dept. They obviously didn't want to talk to me, and after about five minutes holding, she came back and said she would re-connect me immediately.

I'm still going to write a letter of complaint to Vodafone as DeRebel stated (I echo dahamsta's sentiments, btw). I have been without mobile since the 12th of September. If I don't get any decent response, I'm going to cancel my Vodafone account.

TD.

evie

Hey!
Forgive the mistakes as I am indeed a "newbie"!

In relation to your rather interesting story about Russia, I have seen something similar occur with the banks in Ireland.

I work in a fairly respectable clothes shop in the centre of the city and on monday, we had a customer who was, quite obviously, on a spending spree. When she came to our cash desk, she tried to pay with her credit card. Her card was declined and one of my fellow employees rang the bank to get an authorisation code. The bank told her that they could not give her an authorisation code as they had been told that the card had been stolen.

The customer herself then took the phone and rang her branch to straighten the story. The bank apologised and told the customer that she was not usually one to spend so much in one day so they assumed that the card had been stolen. They had put a block on the card so that the "thieves" would not do any more damage.

So in conclusion, this does not just happen with vodafone but with banks too. Although, I must say, you wouldn't really expect it with a phone company.

spongebob

The plastic company spotted a fraudulent pattern and acted to prevent further abuse, the customer was not at home or work and probably could not be contacted in the shop. I suspect the card was authorised later on Evie...was it? If so all is well IMO.

Vodafone also spotted a pattern but they then rang the customer, were assured it was not fraudelent and THEN cut him off. They compounded it by trying to get him to pay for a failure in their fraud control system with a reconnect charge.

M

dahamsta

Credit card companies have been mining data for odd behaviour for a while now, as have other financial institutions and operators[1]; in fact, it's been said that PayPal's success can be directly linked to the algorithms the creators developed to prevent fraud. The difference here is Vodafone's arrogance with the customer, something PayPal has suffered from too.

Stopping someone's credit card because you're worried their card may have been stolen is inconvenient, certainly, but it works to everone's advantage in the long run -- you'll be glad of it when your card /is/ stolen, and you're so flustered you forget to report it. Blocking a SIM is almost exactly the same. However, blocking it and refusing to reconnect because you /mightn't/ pay your bill is just idiotic.

You can bet your bottom dollar that the Vodafone PR guys are tearing the policymakers a new one for not consulting with them right now.

adam


[1] Except AIB, obviously.

Ruu_Old

i got narky over a simcard that went astray. They said i signed for it and that my signature was on the package, even tho i was at work! and it was delivered to the house. I emailed the ODTR bout it, even tho it was a petty matter. They called me the next day and told me they had contacted Vodafone on my behalf and it was sorted out in the end so yeah go for it, make a show of them!

Dawg

Real interesting thread. Cant believe they did that.

I think De Rebel nailed it, some great advice there. One thing I didn't see mentioned is breach of contract. Sure, they can cut you off for non-payment but with a perfect payment record and no solid reason to cut you off then you must have a case against them.
However I would pay the bill in full as soon as you get it, otherwise you throw any argument you have aginst them out the window, not to mention the possibility of a bad credit rating.

Maj. TightAss

zynaps

Hm, is there a card for "one who, on having nothing useful to say, must respond to a thread with a card to slag another user's post"?