What Class Are You?

mike65

Prompted by another thread over on Politics I thought this might be fun/instructive.

What class do you form part of? And does it matter to you
one way or the other?

I'm middle-class through and through by birth and upbringing but in a nice low-budget sort of way.

Mike.

p.s. I've kept the poll to the three main blocks for simplicities sake.

pro_gnostic_8

What are the criteria (of class) that you basing your question on, Mike? Is your definition of class income-related or upbringing/environment biased? I can't vote in your poll until I know.

mike65

I define class by instinct and taste. That sort of thing.

Are you shell suit or barbour?

Its the stuff that makes your character in large part. setee or sofa, tabloid or broadsheet, Spanish costa or Italian lakes? BBC2 or Sky 1? Saab or Nissan ? PDs or SF ? Toilet or bog ?

Mike.

pro_gnostic_8

Oh, in that case, by that definition I'll have to vote Working Class. More shellsuit than Barbour -- but with aspirations to the latter.
Hey, no Saab ever made could hold a candle to a Nissan Skyline.

mike65

6 votes, 50% Upper Class! Who are you? Indentify yourselves!

Mike.

DadaKopf

Those class distinctions are out of date.

Borzoi

I wouldn't say out of date, just increasingly irrelevant. Everybody knows what class they are even though there are no hard and fast rules to it anymore.

Mike, are Saabs UC or MC?

And in the words of my ol' fella: The working class can kiss my ass, I've got the foreman's job at last.

Saruman

I have no idea as there is no such thing as a class system here any more...
However since i work for a living i will go with Working class

Beruthiel

well as I wouldn't be caught dead in a track suit and high heels, and would rather drive around Europe than take a two week hol in a resort, I shall consider myself middle class yaa? (said in a posh voice)
I work in a office and drive a bike (no saab in my drive)
I really don't know how you can define class now, it varies so much.

Dr. Loon

Middle class. Saruman, I don't imagine you're working class.... but then again it depends on the definition of these classes.

Turnip

Didn't vote because the definitions are stupid. People who sponge off the dole all their lives are not working class. To suggest so is an insult to people who work. Many working class people these days will have 3 or 4 years of formal education. And I don't subscribe to the view that anyeone who reads a tabloid is working class ie. thick.

My parents came from professional backgrounds and were university educated. That's what I call middle class.

Wolf

I was brought up very upper middle class. My dad was a Dr of astrophyics and we where well off but not Rich. I also was broght up with a wide range of opions and veiws. To be honest class wise now i waver between upper and lower depending on home much money i have from day to day.

Aspro

I define class by instinct and taste. That sort of thing. Are you shell suit or barbour?

So if Michael Smurfit decides he likes wearing shell suits and reading "The Sun" on a daily basis, does that make him working class?

Class distinction on a basic level is the relationship of a person to the economy, best put by Marx:

"... the modern working-class, developed, a class of labourers, who live only so long as they find work, and who find work only so long as their labour increases capital."

Those who can only survive by selling their labour, their skills, to an employer are the working class i.e. most people

Originally posted by Turnip
My parents came from professional backgrounds and were university educated. That's what I call middle class.

That's a fairly good definition of it. Those from professional backgrounds who can sustain themselves without having to work for anyone else (self-employed, doctors, solicitors, etc.)

Turnip

Originally posted by Aspro


So if Michael Smurfit decides he likes wearing shell suits and reading "The Sun" on a daily basis, does that make him working class?

I'll wager that Smurfit pays people to read all the newspapers for him including the Sun to see what's being said about him.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by DadaKopf
Those class distinctions are out of date.

Not really, but how we label them is somewhat.

Me, I'm confused. Half middle class (half of my ancestors were bank clerks and accountants) and half upper class (titled aristocrats and gentry). There is certainly a difference in attitudes, morals and habits beween the two in my experience of interacting as a member of both.

I suppose I'm probably mainly middle class with a few inbred upper class habits, so I don't know if I can really vote in this poll. But mainly confused class.

*Sigh*

ReefBreak

"... the modern working-class, developed, a class of labourers, who live only so long as they find work, and who find work only so long as their labour increases capital."

I think these days in Ireland it's much simpler. About 90% of the time, you can usually tell from looking at someone whether they are working, middle or upper class. Well, maybe not upper class in Ireland but certainly working and middle. Why? Well, you just can. I find you can tell always tell a skanger just by looking at them - even if they are well dressed. I think the reverse is usually true also.

DadaKopf

He's dead now but Pierre Bordieu had a lot to say about how social class produces different tastes and attitudes, which he called the habitus. I found this if you're interested .

Oh, and I'm not voting in this poll.

Thanx 4 The Fish

I wear tracksuits to footy but suits to weddings ...

I work for a living, am I working class ?

mike65

Originally posted by Saruman
I have no idea as there is no such thing as a class system here any more...

I just knew someone would post that! You're fooling yourself Saruman, plenty of ppl still aspire to be seen as part of another class so the class system must still exist.

Mike.

Typedef

I was under the perhaps mistaken impression that anyone who has to work for the money that keeps them fed with a roof over their head is 'working class'.

Traditionally the term middle class pertained to those who didn't really have to work and upper class or aristocracy to the elite of society, Kings, Taoiseach and such.

Turnip

Originally posted by Typedef
I was under the perhaps mistaken impression that anyone who has to work for the money that keeps them fed with a roof over their head is 'working class'.

Traditionally the term middle class pertained to those who didn't really have to work and upper class or aristocracy to the elite of society, Kings, Taoiseach and such.

Naw, traditionally the middle class were professionals, self employed or white collar workers with formal education.

The Victorian middle class could afford to have servants, people who mistakenly get called middle class these days are usually up to their ears in debt and live in tiny little ratholes.

There are middle class people who don't have to work because they get stipends from their parents. So they don't work. I've met quite a few of them.

corkey

Class is not how your born,But its the way you were bought up that makes you the person money helps to but just look at the bunch of rich fools when you were in school all money and no manners ?:D

mayhem#

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
Hey, no Saab ever made could hold a candle to a Nissan Skyline.

get a grip man, FFS.....

gurramok

i'm from the wealthiest estate in a downtrodden area so i reckon i'm upper class

amp

I hope this thread doesn't decend into "I'm blah blah and so is my dog" Cos if it does then, well, it's off to After Hours with it.

Discuss class systems. Is class relevant anymore? Does it even exist? Is the class system here different to elsewhere? What is class? etc.

Manach

I'd suppose class is a mixture of what enviroment you grew up in and the social grouping you'd adhere to.
Myself, I'd take the peasant class. It's how my immediate ancestors earned their living and is a mix of suspiction of innovation/change and resentment of anyone who try's to make a better life for themselves.

Hobart

Discuss class systems. Is class relevant anymore? Does it even exist? Is the class system here different to elsewhere? What is class? etc.

Hmmm! I actually like this thread as it is. I think that it has sparked quite a bit of discussion on the whole perception of class.

The original post was "What Class are you?". A good subject for this forum (Humanities). Lets stick to the original Post.

If you want to delve deeper into the above quote, why not start a seperate thread?

Saruman

Originally posted by mike65


I just knew someone would post that! You're fooling yourself Saruman, plenty of ppl still aspire to be seen as part of another class so the class system must still exist.

Mike.

OK im probably more middle class than working then... And yes maybe some people still think in these terms.. i dont myself... i work, i make more money than i need to live and im happy... I dont care if um working, middle or upper!

amp

Originally posted by Hobart


Hmmm! I actually like this thread as it is. I think that it has sparked quite a bit of discussion on the whole perception of class.

The original post was "What Class are you?". A good subject for this forum (Humanities). Lets stick to the original Post.

If you want to delve deeper into the above quote, why not start a seperate thread?

Somebody hold me back. Please.

Here's a few clues for you Hobart:

1. I, along with Micro and Zenith moderate this forum (Humanities).
2. After Hours is the place for narcissist threads where almost everybody replies saying what their favourite [insert something here] is.
3. This forum's (Humanities) prime reason for existence is to discuss and debate. Merely posting what class you think you are is not discussion or debate.
4. This forum (Humanities) and indeed this very website (www.boards.ie) is not a democracy.

And now, live, from somewhere in Sallynoggin, it's time for amp to say BACK ON TOPIC!*



* this means you do not discuss this any further within this thread. See the New World Order thread for more details

The Corinthian

Upper Class
Morals: Don’t need them.
Lineage: “I know what my ancestor had for Christmas lunch in 1308.”
Occupation: Only if absolutely necessary to survive and cannot be avoided.
Sport: Anything that involves senseless violence towards dumb animals (e.g. foxes, pheasants, etc.).
Hobbies: Horses and breeding.

Middle Class
Morals: Feels responsible for injustice in society.
Lineage: “My (great-)granddad was in the GPO/Somme.”
Occupation: Live to work.
Sport: Golf.
Hobbies: Gardening and safe sex.

Lower Class
Morals: Can’t afford them.
Lineage: “Wha?”
Occupation: Only if absolutely necessary to survive and cannot be avoided.
Sport: Anything that involves senseless violence towards dumb animals (e.g. boxers, people who look at you crooked, etc.).
Hobbies: Horses and breeding.

Tom Dunne

I think this brings up the question of class mobility, as the sociologists like to call it.

My parents, I suppose, were working class, a nurse and a carpenter. I am university educated and a "knowledge worker" (again as the sociologists would put it). Without attempting to be a snob, I wouldn't consider myself working class, so I suppose I am middle class.

Blitzkrieger

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
What are the criteria (of class) that you basing your question on, Mike? Is your definition of class income-related or upbringing/environment biased? I can't vote in your poll until I know.

Reminds me of the 'social groups' you see on college application forms (at least on the CIT form). Anybody want to scan one in?

It'd be nice to think it's irrelevant but the truth is there is still class barriers in our society. Locally, most people treat me like poor white thrash, and I couldn't imagine doing anything worthwhile here. I'm not sure what I mean exactly. If (god forbid) I wanted to run for election for some ****ty local council (when hell freezes over) and maybe work towards improving the area, I wouldn't have a hope in hell for people stabbing me in the back. Not because of anything I've done, but because when I was young we didn't have two pennies to rub together.

Lawnkiller

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Middle Class
Morals: Feels responsible for injustice in society.
Lineage: “My (great-)granddad was in the GPO/Somme.”
Occupation: Live to work.
Sport: Golf.
Hobbies: Gardening and safe sex.

Had realtions in all teh major war fukcups of history.
I'm not responsible for injustice but can clearly see who is (thank god they don't make stupidity a painful condition.....)
not interested in sport at the mo - too maneh injuries
hobbies include wine, women, etc..... (yeah)
gardening includes killing teh lawn.

neuro-praxis

The Corinthian, that's hilarious. Did you write that yourself?

I don't know if I believe in class anymore. How on earth can it be defined? I have working class parents and grew up without much money, but I'd be considered (by my outward appearances anyway) to be a definite middle class person. I have no idea what I am. Does my education or what's in my bank account define it? Or where I grew up? Or my attitudes?

Class is irrelevant really. It is indefinable and unimportant in my opinion.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by neuro-praxis
The Corinthian, that's hilarious. Did you write that yourself?

Half is based on something I read in some book or other, ages ago. The other half is based upon personal observation.

Greenbean

I think in the past money (and hence power and land) was mainly attained from heritage and nepotism. When the money is passed down from generation to generation like that, an upper class would form; protocols, disciplines, titles, networks of people etc. It sort of followed that the notion of class itself became powerful even if the money dissapeared from the family line for a generation or two - but its definitely the wealth that powers it all.

Today attaining money quickly can happen to anyone - "new money" types have pretty much cut the old class systems to pieces. Anyone from a working class background (basically poor) can work and/or study themselves into a comfortable position and basically become middleclass. This is great, people have more of a chance than they ever did to succeed. Hardly perfect but better. The power of the class system itself is becoming meaningless, since it doesn't necessarly or strictly signify someone's wealth (hence power etc etc) and things like democracy tend to get in the way of aristocracy, monarchies and similar. But what hasn't become insignificant is what people imagine "being" upper class means.

Its sort of like Russia emulating capitalism. For years and years lots of propaganda about how western capitalism was corrupt, evil and filled with organised crime was spread about the ussr. Partly true. But now that democracy has taken hold all the crooks and thieves have taken a hold in Russia's economy with no-one to challenge it because everyone actually believes the myths propagated about how capitalism works.

I think the same sort of happens with the class myth. People are aligning themselves behind the facade that seems more desirable to them. These days you can be anything you want - you don't need to be a class, yet still people wish to be seen as "working class hard as nails, a down to earth type", or "middle class, compasionate, thoughtful, liberal, intelligent" or "upper class, champaign, elite circles, image and class". Alot of people go for the one they aren't.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Greenbean
Today attaining money quickly can happen to anyone - "new money" types have pretty much cut the old class systems to pieces.

Yes and no.

Modern society has increased social mobility to a level unseen in the past and we no longer (realistically) live in a world of dukes and princes.

However, social mobility (both up and down) is a long standing western tradition (Cicero, for example, was the roman equivalent of middle class, yet rose to the highest republican office of the time). And we still live in a world of dukes and princes - after a fashion. Who do you think the "new money" types marry to inject a bit of 'breeding' into the old family tree?

My own opinion is that class structure will endure, only the labels and bloodlines will change.

Greenbean

Good point.

Just to catch up with the lingo, with increased "social mobility", I think people are still trying to make the class models from less socially mobile times fit into the current day - and end up not quite doing it correctly. Its what they perceive it all to be about. Hence "Posh" Spice, attempting to buy her way into glammour and the high life, or Elton John attempting to re-create Renaissance spendour and extravagance.

I agree new class systems are/will form and that power will revolve around big families - but they just won't be as well defined as they have been. Those ivy league/oxbridge fraternities and old boys clubs look to be the source of alot of current day elitism; and the Bush'es seem to be keeping a hell of alot of power within one family. Seriously, 250million people, all in theory capable of becoming president of america and we get a father and son combination?

DiscoStu

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8

Hey, no Saab ever made could hold a candle to a Nissan Skyline.

What about a Saab 37 Viggen? max speed mach 2.0. 0wn3d.

Middle Class.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Greenbean
I agree new class systems are/will form and that power will revolve around big families - but they just won't be as well defined as they have been.

It's very difficult to double guess this point as we’re speculating on how society is likely to evolve socially not in our lifetimes, but long after.

If I may take the two main ages of western culture; divided by the so-called dark ages of Roman and modern (a gross simplification, I know ), we saw a republican class structure (even under the emperors) which was in many ways less defined than the feudal and post-feudal system that came later. Rank was in both cases inherited, however, title generally was not. A roman noble was not quite the same as a modern noble.

The class structure we had at the turn of the twentieth century, on the other hand, was the culmination of centuries of social evolution, often borrowing from the earlier roman period - titles such as emperor, Kaiser, duke, and Tsar have their roots in roman terminology (as an aside, the pope is still technically Pontifex Maximus - a republican office that was once held by Julius Caesar). Additionally, many Germanic and barbarian titles and systems were also adopted along the way, and so if we look at the embryonic aristocracy of the late dark ages to early middle ages, it would bare little relation to that of ‘la belle epoch’ of the late 1800’s and early 1900’s. Middle class only re-emerged during the renaissance, it should also be noted.

In short, it didn’t begin as well defined, and if a new way of structuring class does emerge, neither will it for a while. But again, I’m speculating; as it's very difficult to double guess this point.

mike65

Originally posted by The Corinthian

If I may take the two main ages of western culture; divided by the so-called dark ages of Roman....

Whatever else the Roman era was its was'nt a dark age, the only thing wrong with the Roman empire is that it never got this far!
We'd have some lovely roads by now....Adam Hart-Davies did a great programme called "What Did the Romans Ever Do for Us?"
which shows just how important the Roman legacy has been in England.

(side note) Even the Dark Ages as usually defined, ie post Roman era were'nt very dark at all.


Mike.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by mike65
Whatever else the Roman era was its was'nt a dark age, the only thing wrong with the Roman empire is that it never got this far!

Sorry, I phrased that badly; what I meant was

"two main ages of western culture; Roman and modern, that were divided by the so-called dark age"

Still, what the fsck are you expecting at two in the morning? Umberto Eco?

Kalina

I'm a student, I work, my parents work, I get the grant so what class do I fit into???

McGinty

I believe the class system is multi facetated. I believe myself to be middle class, however I do not have the middle class lifestyle as such. (In reality it is hard to define). However class is divided by upbringing, schooling, mannerisms, education, philosophy and general attitudes. In terms of incomes one can go from working class or below to upper class. I read a classification system in relation to working or non working, and the people who carried out the survey defined people from A to F. People in the A categoory were extremely rich and the people in F were homeless and had no money. At that time I was in the E category, unemployed.

However in my opinion class, as in background, attitudes is something that is inherent from a young age and I believe this because of my limited or maybe not so limited life experience. The way a person speaks, writes, communicates, interacts and so forth, reveals to others their class.

A very good book I read re: the class system was by Jilly Cooper, she tried to take into account, people's lifestyle choices and so forth and the recent changes in society. However, although not perfect, her book 'Class' is pretty comprehensive in its definations.

The reason I believe myself to be middle class is in the way I speak, interact, conduct myself and so forth. I also have a firm belief in education. However I hope I am not as prudish as most middle class people. In some ways a part of me rebels being labelled, and again the whole class topic fascinates me.

neuro-praxis

Greenbean, the Corinthian and McGinty - I've just come back to this thread after ages away and just want to say that the discussion you three put forward is the best, most thoroughly argued and most informative that I've read on boards in a long time. Cool.

mike65

Originally posted by Kalina
I'm a student, I work, my parents work, I get the grant so what class do I fit into???

Middle class sponger!

Mike.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

superconor

it doesnt matter

i am well off

but so what?