Are the Irish too slow to complain

seamus

(It was a toss-up between here and politics - feel free to move)

http://www.enn.ie/news.html?code=8585981

So, the British Government has imposed a similar ban on phones while driving.

Big deal says us, but British Industry is complaining. Now the British Government is probably going to add exceptions to this rule.

Yet when some guy in Government suddenly announced the same for Ireland, we didn't really react much. RTE went out and asked some people on the streets what they thought; "Bleedin' stupi' ", or "I think's is a super idea", they said, but no-one seemed really bothered by it. The Gardai announce they can't enforce this law, and people just say "sure we can ignore it now". There was no uproar like in Britain, and our's is even more oppressive, effectively banning having a mobile in the vehicle, and effectively banning all cb radios, etc. And not a peep from industry or consumer groups.

And there's 2 things we need to complain about here: 1. The fact that it was the Minister for Housing and Urban Renewal who decided this (? WTF?) and 2. there was complete non-coordination between Gardai and Government.

And we see the same in other areas of irish life too - MIJAG and Ireland Offline are just two examples. These pressure groups are pissed off, and complaining and yet they are constantly fighting an almost 90 degree uphill struggle.

Similar groups in Britain get heard, and acted upon, quickly and effectively, and the media keep them in the spotlight. Yet while major Irish newspapers constantly complain about the price of insurance, MIJAG will only get a mention if they do something significant, ditto for IOFFL.

So my question is: Do we, as Irish citizens, not give enough credit to the power of complaining? Why are people who complain just seen as moaners and hacks? And why does the old thought of "Be happy with what you've got" still hold sway in Ireland - we've just come out of a boom, surely we should now know what's it's like to want bigger and better things, enough to complain to get them?

amp

Dunno about the Irish in general, but boards users certainly are not slow to complain.

SheroN

it's a lot easier complain on an internet message board than in real life.

amp

True but lets get back on topic here. Seamus put a lot of work in that post.

Xterminator

Originally posted by seamus
So my question is: Do we, as Irish citizens, not give enough credit to the power of complaining? Why are people who complain just seen as moaners and hacks? And why does the old thought of "Be happy with what you've got" still hold sway in Ireland - we've just come out of a boom, surely we should now know what's it's like to want bigger and better things, enough to complain to get them?

It is true that as a nation, we were very unlikely to complain.
Not nessacarly a bad thing!

Remember the blockade of the ports affecting Irish businesses by pissed of lorry drivers in france, who had no beef ( sorry bad pun) with the irish?! Now thats taking it too far, when it is socially acceptable to hurt innocents, to make your point.

But with the 'compo' culture thats fostering in our society, think that we are changing towards the american consumer model, where complaints are too common, and people abdicate responsibility for there own actions!

One thing i remember from working in a resturant, was the person who brings up a 3/4 empty potion of chips and complains they are cold.
Or the red hearded girl who brought up the last corner of a kebab
with a hair in it, wanting a new one, or her money back (sometimes both), when the hair was red! and nonone behind the counter had red hair!
The drunks claiming for falls etc.
and of course the ubiqutous broken tooth compo excersise.

I mean who do people think end up paying for the cost of these claims? The consumer!

X

Wook

yes they are slow in complaining.
me , not being from ireland or have any family which is irish , and not even want to 'claim' i am irish might have an objective view on this. (or rather that is kinda difficult for there is loads i do not understand)

loads of foreign people complain about ireland or parts of it anyways. public transport, hous rent prices, criminal behaviour,
redicilous closing times of pubs and nightclubs. dublin 'dirty oll town' and so on.
but irish people dont seem to be bothered at all..yes they do mention it during a conversation, but little action is undertaken to do anything about it. it's like a grunt and a humpf and a shrug.

but it makes them nervous when foreign people try to explain how it is done in their own countries and try to explain that things can get better. It would be in their own interrest to listen and absorb that knowledge and not just say 'if you dont like it here go back!' -sigh-

people in my country (belgium) are on the street protesting for almost everything that goes wrong. we have popular tv shows that make fun out of stupid rules and politicians..constantly.
if we would have house prices and a public transport system , same as dublin then we would have an open revolt...

sceptre

Originally posted by Wook

but it makes them nervous when foreign people try to explain how it is done in their own countries and try to explain that things can get better. It would be in their own interrest to listen and absorb that knowledge and not just say 'if you dont like it here go back!' -sigh-

Exactly. It makes them mad that someone might say "in my country we do it properly"

Childish. If you can't learn from others and all that.

Irish people don't complain enough. They bitch amongst themselves but they don't think of complaining directly to someone who can do something about it. And they don't do something about it.

On the phone topic that started this, I personally thought it was a good idea. I'm a bit annoyed that the thing isn't being enforced. When the Minister for the Environment bothers to reply to my (complaining) letter I'll let y'all know.

mike65

It is self-evident the Irish don't complain to the right people
but prefer the safety and comfort of a gumble down the pub
or during a tea-break. Its the reason services cost more than they need to and are of an inferior quality. French style mobilisation
is not the answer though, if only because the weather is'nt
good enough!

No all peeps here need to start doing to picking up
the overpriced phone and make an overpriced call to the right indivdiual in a company and set down the complaint
in a strong clear fashion and then have the will to follow-up
and keep on following up until you get a result.

That is on a small level of course, about the counrty as a whole.
Well getting ppl off thier asses and working collectively is pretty
much impossibe ( I know this cos I'd sooner be sat in front of the telly rather than go on a march!)

As regards foreigners' being more active and not standing for it-
thats true, the enviornmental movement is largely the work of
crazy Brits, Germans and Dutch who came here and saw a lovely country dispoiled by ignorant natives! Harsh but true.

Is it coincidence that on the ICDG Cable/Broadband board
its been Ozpass and me (two blow-ins) that have had lengthy threads chaseing down Chorus and NTL respectivly? Maybe, maybe not.

Mike.

dahamsta

It is true that as a nation, we were very unlikely to complain. Not nessacarly a bad thing!

No, I'm sorry, I simply can't agree with that. Your examples don't apply to the actual topic in-hand: We're not talking about our compo culture - which is just greed when you get right down to it, complaining for money - but regular people complaining when they're not happy about something. It's endemic in Irish society, and it's bloody dangerous for the simple reason that if we /don't/ kick up a fuss, we /will/ end up living in Big Brother society.

We sit in the pub and we whinge and whine to each other to beat the band, and it achieves absolutely nothing. Hell, I'm guilty of this myself, hypocritical even, because while I was encouraging IrelandOffline members to write to their TD's on the forum here, I wasn't doing it meself. And it's at every level of society, people are even embarassed to complain about a bad pint in the pub, or a bad meal in a restaurant. That's just wrong.

I wonder where it comes from though? It was discussed recently somewhere, and a couple of people suggested it was due to British oppression[1], what do you think?

adam


[1] Please don't turn this into an Us V Them thing. It happened, it's over (down here), get over it. I'm just asking out of interest - do you actually think this is the cause, or is it something else?

Turnip

Look what happened to Roy Keane when he complained about the FAI and the attitude of the Irish team. He gets called a prima donna etc. Irish people don't complain enough because they don't want to cause friction or disturb the social order. Perhaps it's due to our colonial past and/or the the influence of the Catholic church. We should be more assertive.

mayhem#

The Irish population on the whole seems to generally display an attitude that is based on "Aah sure itt'll be alright".
Don't complain and just keep doing what you're doing. This explains also the appaling level of customer service displayed right throughout all levels of the private and public sector.
It is slowly changing a bit but people just do not seem to be able to stand up and complain about something that is ****e....

Wook

well a couple of examples from my workplace..

during meetings which contain new rules and processes, the group always consist out of foreign people and irish.
foreign people will almost always have something to say when things are not to their liking. (depends off course on the character of the people)
Irish people will say nothing and when the meeting is finished all hell breaks loose, they start moaning and puffing...drives me nuts..that they never say something during the time of meeting.

very good at gossiping and bitching (sneaky) ...lack of confidence to be assertive?

Biffa Bacon

The sad thing is that the only people who only ever seem to protest are loony-lefties or republican scum. Sometimes I just think the Irish are a racially inferior people. Everything about this country is crap. I can't think of a single Irish institution that is run well.

SYL

Hey Kim....I mean, Wook, I've been in those meetings too. I'm Irish and I love complaining in them. Maybe thats just due to the cack job though.
I have to admit though, I always have a hesitancy to complain on a normal day-to-day basis, unless something is really pi$$ing me off and annoying me. I think it might be down to the fact that we, as a nation, are quite patient. We can accept crap on a day to day basis, but its when it builds up that we explode. Maybe thats why you never see a reasonable complaining customer somewhere - the only one's you see complaining are the screaming blood-vessel-protruding-from-neck types who are ranting like loonies.
Don't know why this is though. Have a few theories, but nuttin' concrete

Aspro

We're far too slow to complain and it's to our detriment. Do you think our other European neighbours would put up with the scandalous housing/rented accomodation or car insurance situation like we do, not to mention the euro conversion price increases across the board?
My theory is that it is a combination of a post-colonial psychological hang-up and the historical mill stone that was the catholic church's influence. A built-in reaction to not rock the boat. Think of the things we hear growing up:

"Ah you don't want to make a fuss"
"Sure these things always sort themselves out" etc. etc.

Post colonial: When you made a fuss as an individual you got into trouble with authority. Could be dangerous for you and your family.

Catholic ethos: Be humble. Accept your lot in this world and reap the rewards in the next etc.

Of course individual complaints are never going to have an impact the way collective dissent will. This is where we differ historically from say, France or Germany who at different stages in the 20th century had social-democratic governments and a stronger tradition of trade union activism. When people complained collectively certain reforms had to be made.

In Ireland the Labour party long ago gave up any pretence to even mild reformism so there has been no voice for collective dissent. You complain to FF/FG/PDs etc. - you just get ignored. So we go down the pub and moan to each other.

But I do agree with SYL. We do accept crap on a day to day basis, but its when it builds up that we do explode. The recent public sector strikes in Northern Ireland against sectarianism and sectarian murders are a good example.

Wook

John erhm SYL i mean,
you give yourself as an example, but you know as well as i do that most people in our company don't say **** during meetings.

One more thing though, when are you Irish going to do something about those stupid closing times of pubs and nightclubs? Is this not a EU law for this ?

dahamsta

Look what happened to Roy Keane when he complained about the FAI and the attitude of the Irish team. He gets called a prima donna etc.

Again, different. Roy Keane /is/ a prima donna, he treated the whole thing like a game (irony, eh?) and he acted like a child: Instead of dealing with it calmly and logically, he shouted and roared and swore like a knacker. There is a time and a place for that, it should always be the last resort. Keane was /far/ from the last resort.

If anything, Keane has set a bad example to the nation when it comes to complaining, he's put us at risk of turning into an even bigger bunch of whiners who'll never resolve anything[1]. There has to be a logical approach: Complain politely; complain slightly more adamantly; take it up the ladder; and if none of that works, then, and only then, is it time to start roaring and shouting.

adam


[1] Remember, no-one won in the Keane/McCarthy debacle. Keane lost his chance to represent his country (and earn a few extra quid); and Ireland lost a great player.

SYL

Hey Wook, we've complained and complained about pub opening and closing times, but to no avail. Its funny actually, because it's probably the one thing that other irish people have actually bothered to complain about in recent times. But its being kept in line because of all the road killings and underage drinking and stuff like that.
Least of our worries though.
I dont' mind about pub closing times (unless its 1:50am on a saturday night), its all the high prices in this country that really rattle my cage. Being a soon-to-be student, I can't handle the constant price increases here, things seem to go up on a daily basis. Went into HMV lately, a CD that would have cost about £15 irish was approx. 25.99 euros. I mean, WTF???? People are just taking advantage of the monetary conversion and the economic unrest in the country. I would have expected it from a few 'choice' institutions, but it seems like everyone who owns a cash register is at it.

Turnip

Originally posted by dahamsta
Again, different. Roy Keane /is/ a prima donna, he treated the whole thing like a game (irony, eh?) and he acted like a child: Instead of dealing with it calmly and logically, he shouted and roared and swore like a knacker. There is a time and a place for that, it should always be the last resort. Keane was /far/ from the last resort.

From what I've read, it was building up for years. All Keane's polite representations got nowhere. I don't think he's a prima donna at all compared to much less talented posers like Beckham. He's the captain of the team, the best midfielder in Europe probably and none of his requests or complaints were taken seriously. No wonder he blew his top.

dahamsta

The thread is about complaining, not Roy Keane. I'm not going to be dragged into another flame war about it. (I ended up having to ban the word "Roy" on Foot.ie because of that whole farce!)

adam

Kappar

I think the media need to keep the issue in the public domain more they seem the keep it only for a few days then drop it.

In the UK for example parents were complaining about the MMR vacination and it was kept in the media for a long time and a rember a popular morning show rang the PM's press office everyday for weeks asking for a comment.

This is what we need cosistent action

Blitzkrieger

You can never be too slow to complain. My life would be so much happier if morons would just stfu.

The problem with Ireland is that the goverment just doesn't listen. They've just been elected so they don't give a toss, and won't give a toss for another 6 years. They just don't give a toss period. None of them actually want to help people, they just want to look good, usually by taking credit for something someone else has done.

Turnip

Originally posted by dahamsta
The thread is about complaining, not Roy Keane. I'm not going to be dragged into another flame war about it. (I ended up having to ban the word "Roy" on Foot.ie because of that whole farce!)
adam

OK but I thought his was a perfect case in point. He wasn't demanding the impossible, or special treatment like a prima donna would, he just wanted the standards and professionalism he's used to at Man U applied to the national team.

Anyway, a lot of the times when I should complain but don't I think it's because I don't want to belittle or humiliate anyone. The thing is when someone complains to me about something I'm glad of it (if they're polite) because it means I learn and my professionalism improves.

Slutmonkey57b

In my experience as someone employed to listen to complaints, the Irish are not unprepared to complain - they do have a tendancy to complain about the wrong things though. They also have a disturbing tendancy to *ahem* LIE a lot. If I were to have someone with one genuine small complaint, there would usually be about a 80% chance that instead of just complaining about what went wrong, they'd start complaining about a whole load of rubbish that either a) didn't happen, or b) was nothing to do with me (or rather my company.)

What people don't realise about complaining is that it is only effective when used at the right time in the right manner. Whinging complainers NEVER EVER EVER get better service in a pub or a restaurant or a hotel - they get what they want maybe, but they do NOT get good service.

Best complainers: Service workers (they know what they're doing)
Worst complainers: Office drones (they're convinced they're important)
most irritating complainers: What's your name? You'll be out of a job tomorrow! (Uhh no I won't, and you won't get what you want either, wanker.)

Sand

I worked in a service job before where i dealt with the public on a daily basis - I now despise the public and am delighted i dont have to see, hear or smell them again. The irish dont complain, they whine and moan and bitch but theyre scared to actually complain to a figure of authority so they take it out on the lower levels of staff cos it makes them feel better.

The best part of the service job was completely ignoring these whingers and leaving them there until they realised you werent coming back to listen to their ****.

Slutmonkey57b

Absolutely true - there's nothing more irritating than having someone who's abusive, belittling and bulying with low - level staff who comes over all sweetness and light once they have to speak to someone higher up. Word to the wise: the Manager has already been informed you're a wanker and what you've been up to, so there's no point pulling this trick.

Nevyn

I guess we dont have the skills to complain correctly.
y'know every see any your parents do it ?
And if you are out in a group and you dare to complain you are pressured not to .

Me well I do , graciously, firmly and relentlessly.

And don't forget you can always tell them to ring you back for your complaint ( it does work ) ,

always try and get the full name of who it is you speak to

find out if they can do anything for you if not get them to give you the number of who and that name so you dont get lost in the phone system

keep a note of the time and date you call if you need to follow up

and dont let the B*stards get you down


hmmmm maybe theres a way i can set up my own business to complain on the behalf of others lol

Turnip

Originally posted by Sand
I worked in a service job before where i dealt with the public on a daily basis - I now despise the public and am delighted i dont have to see, hear or smell them again. The irish dont complain, they whine and moan and bitch but theyre scared to actually complain to a figure of authority so they take it out on the lower levels of staff cos it makes them feel better.

The best part of the service job was completely ignoring these whingers and leaving them there until they realised you werent coming back to listen to their ****.

Hmmm...If there's one kind of person I detest more than dole spongers it's people who don't do their job properly but get paid the same as those who work hard and want to be as professional as possible at all times. I also worked in a service job giving tech support and a few of my co-workers had Sand's attitude. If a customer was being difficult they'd just cut him off. Then the guy would ring back and someone else (ie. me) would have to deal with the even angrier customer. It's a disgusting approach to work.

Sand

If there's one kind of person I detest more than dole spongers it's people who don't do their job properly but get paid the same as those who work hard and want to be as professional as possible at all times.

Youre right- I hate those lazy fecks as well. But in low level service jobs like those you eventually realise theres no fecking point killing yourself whilst the dossers are getting the same as you at the end of the day. If you cant beat them.....

I also worked in a service job giving tech support and a few of my co-workers had Sand's attitude. If a customer was being difficult they'd just cut him off. Then the guy would ring back and someone else (ie. me) would have to deal with the even angrier customer. It's a disgusting approach to work.

LOL - You shouldve just hung up on them too, serve them right for being difficult ( I assume you mean ratty, bitchy and downright stupid? ).

Bitchy customers get absolutely nothing from me - if they cant even be polite or civil then feck em- Im not the company and I couldnt care less if they "never shop here again" - personally im glad to see bitchy customers go. Its no skin of my nose. Service workers tend to get paid low crappy wages by the hour, not by the customer retained or work done.

If a customer can be polite and civil then so will I. Working a service job doesnt make you less than human, any less deserving of common manners or politeness - except in the eyes of the scum, a.k.a the public.

Its probably the main reason Irish people wont work these jobs - **** wages, **** conditions, and the public

Turnip

Sand, you're missing the point. Lazy people on the dole might get free money but their lives are going nowhere, they can't take holidays, go out or buy things. So at the end of the day their laziness doesn't do them any good. It's people who do have jobs but refuse to take them seriously because it's not all plain sailing that really annoy me. They'll still be able to move on to a better paid job after a couple of years, take good holidays and go out lots. But they're getting paid while someone else does their work. I thought working in a service job and learning to deal with difficult people was extremely important. Put it this way, my job pays pretty good money by any standard right now and it's partly due to my eagerness to be professional at all times regardless of how difficult the job might get.