A tentative query...

The Sweeper

Okay, it's been a while, but I've wandered back on to Ireland Offline because Dusty said something earlier to remind me how passionate I once was about internet access. This used to be a subject close to my heart. Too close in fact. But now that I am removed from the job, the issue and indeed the country I feel that I can say this. And I'm not trying to be unhelpful, but:

I do not, for a single second, believe that FRIACO will become reality in Ireland anytime within, say, the next five years. For a couple of reasons, and not just telco laziness.

The prospective customer base in Ireland is too small to provide economies of scale and too big to risk launching a loss-leader (as Esat did with No Limits). The incumbent has too much control - and that's not really anyone's fault. OLOs have to stump up far too much cash to get into the Irish market, and the prospective return simply isn't there in terms of size of population, especially not when that population is demanding that they be charged miniscule prices for the service they want.

Badgering eircom on this issue is like flossing with wool - irritating, fruitless and unpleasant. I'm not trying to undermine the efforts that IOffL have made so far - indeed, I know for a fact that ye have achieved more than anyone ever thought you would.

I'm just wondering if anyone here has the know-how, time, ability etc. to put together a genuine business case for flat rate internet access in Ireland. ISPs in Ireland are profit-driven. Hence products that do not make a profit are unavailable. Businesses only want to do business. That's why they're not called 'Favours'.

I know all this is stating the obvious etc., and I'm only posting this because I have a real appreciation for how ultimately fruitless campaigning against eircom will be.

I would be interested in putting together a sort of business case/mission statement document on how flat rate access would potentially work in Ireland and on what Irish consumers really want in terms of internet access. There are enough people who surf these boards who either work in esat/eircom or know people who do to provide and confirm background information. It's not enough to say 'there is a demand for this service here, therefore we should have it!!'. We don't have it because it's not profitable.

If we can come up with ideas on how to make it profitable, perhaps we can make some noise and get heard again. Personally, if the document has good enough ideas, I'd like to send it to eircom, esat, the press and every single UK and Western European ISP out there.

(And on that note, it's Friday evening, I'm tired and rambling, I'll stop now, feel free to bombard me with how crap my suggestion is.)

SkepticOne

The core of the argument here seems to be:

1. Companies are out to make money.
2. If they could make money out of flat-rate they would.
3. Companies are not offering flat-rate.
4. Therefore you can't make money out of flat-rate.
5. Therefore no company will offer flat-rate in the future.

I hope I haven't simplified things too much.

In argument against this, I would say that the whole thing depends on some sort of wholesale rate for ISPs. This is the main difference between Ireland and other contries that have flat-rate. The size of the market may be an issue but without the wholesale structure in place, there's no point in considering business plans.

To put it in rather patronising terms: you can't make a business plan for building a house if you don't know the price of the bricks.

I don't think size of market is as big an issue as made out. UTV Internet provide a flat-rate package in the North only, for example.

Dangger

Sounds like a challenge Minesajackdaniels, I'd like to take you up on it. Its a case worth assembling. However it should be noted that operators have already requested wholesale flat rate products from the incumbent, over the last month. There is of course one obstacle to get over.:rolleyes:

The Sweeper

Okay, don't want this to sound too dodgy, but put it this way. If the retail price for evening internet access is 1p per minute, then the wholesale price that Esat pay eircom must be less than that, and the cost to eircom of providing internet access per minute less than that again.

There being no FRIACO, assume Esat pay eircom per minute. So they must be paying either 1p, or less than 1p per minute. (This was part of the 'get your calculators out' to estimate the loss Esat must be making on No Limits),

You can hypothesise in a business plan. That's half the fun.

Just something to think about. We can use estimates etc. because we know some of the information.

And on that note, it's Friday, I'm off to the pub, will be back on to keep up this discussion later though because the idea of this document appeals to me. I mean, it's just a bigger version of what the marketing departments in these places do themselves. And if they're ideas-sessions involve ten to fifteen people, maybe we can capitalise on the fact that we have a couple of hundred...

/me runs out door to pub

mdf

UTV Internet provide a flat-rate package in the North only, for example.

Yeah, but the charge for FRIACO is averaged across the UK rather than deaveraged per region.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Minesajackdaniels
There being no FRIACO

OK, but it's pretty well established that there isn't much of a business case for flat-rate without FRIACO or something like it. Is this your point?

Dangger

Yeah, but the charge for FRIACO is averaged across the UK rather than deaveraged per region.

But I thought that UTV Internet do not have a true wholesale FRIACO offering yet in the North. Its something they are almost at and as a results can offer FRIACO style products to consumers.

Not 100% though. Its a FRIACO hybrid I think, but close to becoming true FRIACO. Anyone know for sure?

Hannibal_12

I'm not sure campaigning against €ircom is exactly "fruitless" as you put it. You see I think €ircom rely on the ignorance of the Irish people with respect to internet access. Yes there are some who are clued in to what they are doing but they are a very small minority. A small minority in the case of Ireland is indeed small in keeping with population size, a small minority in England or France could be 1 million people, you see where I'm going. IOFFL needs to continue to lobby against €ircom and make more of our admittedly small population aware of how they are being ripped off and how generally bad internet access is in Ireland.

I live in Dublin (near city centre) and I still cannot get a ridiculously overpriced DSL service two months after it has been launched even though I am willing to pay because my exchange has not been upgraded and they cant give me an "estimate" as to when it will be. At the very least campaigning against €ircon will raise awarness in the general public and perhaps affect change with regards to flat rate or broadband.

Lemming

DOn't take this personally JD .. but I'm in a bad mood, and getting sick of the "stupid f*cking paddy" mentality that is so prevalent in this country. One of your statements set me off .. so my apologies if any of this seems harsh or insulting. Not my intention

Originally posted by Minesajackdaniels
I do not, for a single second, believe that FRIACO will become reality in Ireland anytime within, say, the next five years.

With respect to the quote following, if we dont' have economies of scale and return potentials .. why should it EVER come about?? This is a big contradiction being bandied about by others JD.

On the one hand you're saying it will not become reality with in the next five years, but then you go on to state why we don't have it, which completely contradicts the (indirect) prediction that we may have it within 6 years.

The prospective customer base in Ireland is too small to provide economies of scale and too big to risk launching a loss-leader (as Esat did with No Limits). The incumbent has too much control - and that's not really anyone's fault. OLOs have to stump up far too much cash to get into the Irish market, and the prospective return simply isn't there in terms of size of population, especially not when that population is demanding that they be charged miniscule prices for the service they want.

That line was thrown about in just about every country that now has broadband and FRIACO I'm sure. We have a small island, we have a small population, therefore the cost to supply should be relative to that base. If a company like Eircom choose to shoot themselves in the foot by providing and maintaining substandard networks and being over-staffed by about a ration of 3:1, then why should we suffer for their incompetence?

Suppose FRIACO is introduced tomorrow .. not everyone is going to go for it, therefore you don't have a MASS overload of the network. Now, the people who stay on metered .. you try and plug FRIACO too, since you know that those that don't jump at flat-rate initially are not going to be heavy bandwidth users.

Those that Do jump for it initially are most likely to be medium to heavy users, so you can plug Broadband to them. Let them whet their appetite with FRIACO .. the rest will fall in place. It's just like giving free "hits", then jacking up the dosage/price, to use an analogy.

With figures/trends of various users .. you can administer your network to accomodate, knowing what type of user is *typically* going to be using what and at what time.

Furthermore, have you considered why Eircom use this line constantly?? Firstly, they dont' want to damage their little antiquated cash-cow. This is nothing more than short-sighted vision and lack of imagination. This is not competition, this is business for the sake of business. Secondly, the culture of clock-watching prevents MANY from staying on more, and perhaps fueling more e-services.

On top of that, you mentioned OLO's spending too much for too little return. Have you considered that the possible cause of BOTh problems is with the incumbent?

[rant warning]
As an aside, other countries with silmilar demographics have achieved FRIACO ... why are we any different? We're not. It's just the stereo-typical "stupid f*cking Paddy" attitude that seems to be all too prevalent and pure out and out greed.
[/rant]

Badgering eircom on this issue is like flossing with wool - irritating, fruitless and unpleasant. ....

indeed, I know for a fact that ye have achieved more than anyone ever thought you would.

Again, contradiction. If its fruitless, then why has something of merit been achieved? "Paddy" attitude strikes again.

You are right however in that it is highly irritating to deal with them.

Anyway .. its late, I'm pissed off and tired, and I'm probably gonna say something offensive to someone (if not already ... to which I'll sorry now).

Xian

Originally posted by Lemming
It's just like giving free "hits", then jacking up the dosage/price, to use an analogy.

I'm not sure the Internet/Heroin analogy should be used in IOs policy statements, similar though they may seem.

wormhole

nobody but eirgom can make a business plan for FRIACO because
only they know the true operating costs involved and their not
going to share that information with anyone.
population size is a real red herring here denmark,finland and norway
all have populations larger but comperable to ireland
(norway closest at 4.5 million aprox) yet have isdn and adsl
penetration levels which make dialup flat rate an obsoltete
product.
norway and finland are much larger and without the convenience
of a capitol city where nearly a third of their populations live, both
have formaly state owned incumbents who seem to recognise
that they have a responsibility to provide services at a fair price
and not gouge their customers.
No there is no excuse for the miserable efforts of the goverment,
and ODTR or the wilful stupidity of eircon who are damaging this
countries economic future and their own by their pricing and painfuly
slow impementation of adsl.
if a uncapped non eirgom solution becomes available even if is slower than adsl that is what i will go for.


wormhole

vampyre

Esat believe, well since Bill Murphy materialised anyway, that FRIACO and a consumer flat rate product is necessary. We all know why eircom don't but it is true Esat would have everyone connected to the net and making money for them, the more customers the better. The policy of esat is flat rate is essential, if only to start a major clamour for ADSL. The FRIACO negotiations are being stonewalled, loud support is needed now for the introduction of the product from consumers media etc.

Lemming

Originally posted by Xian

I'm not sure the Internet/Heroin analogy should be used in IOs policy statements, similar though they may seem.

Absolutely Xian, but it was late, I was tired, ranting, and that was the first analogy that came into my head (and no .. I don't have anything I want to tell everyone )

DonegalMan

Originally posted by Dangger
...UTV Internet do not have a true wholesale FRIACO offering yet in the North... Anyone know for sure?

They offer "Glidetime" which is almost identical to SurfNoLimits - unlimited OFFPEAK access at stg£9.99 per month. The same package also includes discount options on voice calls.

---

For ONPEAK they offer the following business accounts:

DeskLine 40 £20 per month inludes 2400 mins access (40 hours)

DeskLine 80 £40 per month inludes 4800 mins access (80 hours)

DeskLine 200 £80 per month inludes 12000 mins access (200 hours)

In each case, additional minutes are charged at 2p per ninute which is a 40% reduction in standard BT charges.

More Information

Not as good an offering as the UK but a hell of a lot better than anything we have here!

Martin Harran

oscarBravo

Originally posted by wormhole
norway and finland are much larger and without the convenience of a capitol city where nearly a third of their populations live

Ah, Finland. Beautiful country, lovely people, and omigod the food! Oh yes, and the wonderful regulatory attitude to telecommunications that practically forces competition... We could learn a lot.

SkepticOne

I was looking for a good argument here. Was this just another troll? Should have guessed by the title, I suppose.

The Sweeper

Originally posted by SkepticOne
I was looking for a good argument here. Was this just another troll? Should have guessed by the title, I suppose.

Oh bite me.

This was a genuine thread.

I'm not trying to start an argument so you're looking in the wrong place if you wanted one, perhaps if you go to the nearest overpass and throw some bricks at passing cars you'll get yourself an argument if you're so desperate for one.

I'm asking if anyone's interested in putting together a business case document.

Lemming, I'm not of the 'stupid fúcking paddy' mentality, and I didn't take your charming little rant personally, but again, I'm not just trying to rehash an old argument here. Providers in Ireland didn't take internet access seriously at all really before Ireland OffLine set up. From that perspective I believe you have achieved something in making yourselves heard.

But I also believe there's an enormous leap between being heard and things changing though. I was just considering that fact and thought to myself 'wonder if anyone would be interested in putting some suggestions on paper'.

All I wanted to know was if anyone is interested in doing something new by putting together a case document on internet access in Ireland.

/me shrugs

If not then ok.

I just have a long seated interest in this and thought it might be useful.

Dangger

All I wanted to know was if anyone is interested in doing something new by putting together a case document on internet access in Ireland.

Yes.

seamus

Sorry MAJD, but any argument saying that flat-rate is unprofitable is bull.

From [url]www.unmetered.org.uk:[/url]
The incremental cost of a metered phone call in the UK to BT is less than 0.01 pence with most of this cost being generated by itemising the call on the phone bill. Virtually all of the cost of providing local phone calls is fixed. This means that BT can handle large increases in local call volumes at negligible additional expense. Consequently, virtually all of the additional revenue generated from increased call volume falls straight to the bottom line as profit.

Granted, Ireland is just *slightly* smaller than the UK, but the principles persist. If OLOs are allowed access to the local loop at a fixed rate (ie wholesale), then FRIACO is wholly viable.

For example, a reasonable rate to charge an OLO for access to a fixed line is around €10/month (considering eircom essentially inherited them anyway). Charge your customer €15/month line rental + €25/month FRIACO subs, and you're on money street. Taking the above quote, even if the cost of providing a 3 minute call, after all costs considered, was say 0.5c (This is probably a huge overestimation), then a customer would have to make over 6000 3 minute calls in the space of a month before it became a loss to the OLO.

Assuming costs are negligible once the call goes over 15 minutes, the OLO actually makes *more* profit on users who stay connected for longer periods.

But of course it all comes down to LLU. If eircom are charging loads per fixed line per month, then FRIACO becomes unviable. Plus - 6000 3min calls @ flat-rate = €30, but otherwise, 6000 3 min calls @ metered rates =~ €375, hence why eircom are so reluctant to offer flat-rate charges to OLO's - they can make more money (12 times more in my example) by charging the customer directly by metered rates.

Feel free to point out errors/omissions/inaccuracies in this little rant.

The Sweeper

Originally posted by seamus
Sorry MAJD, but any argument saying that flat-rate is unprofitable is bull.

I didn't think I'd argued that it was!

Flat rate internet access is enormously less profitable than per minute charging Seamus. That's the basis of the whole problem, eircom don't see any reason why they should be remotely hasty about surrendering per minute access charging in favour of flat rate. I never said flat rate was unprofitable except in the context that it certainly is for an OLO to provide without an equivalent wholesale offering. If it came across otherwise then my apologies, I'll be more clear in the future.

Originally posted by seamus
Granted, Ireland is just *slightly* smaller than the UK, but the principles persist. If OLOs are allowed access to the local loop at a fixed rate (ie wholesale), then FRIACO is wholly viable.

Agreed except for the 'slightly smaller' bit.

Originally posted by seamus
For example, a reasonable rate to charge an OLO for access to a fixed line is around €10/month.

Now this is where is problems start. Why do you think that's a reasonable rate? Do you know eircom's operating costs? Their overheads? Perhaps they're using this overinflated per-minute internet access charging to pad out a financial shortfall elsewhere in their business? How do you know they're not?

And you've based all of your subsequent calculations on the notion that a tenner a month is a reasonable wholesale rate.

You're basically then saying exactly what I'm saying - it isn't remotely attractive for eircom to sacrifice per minute charging in favour of offering FRIACO in any form.

And no amount of shouting about 'keeping up with international standards' or 'the internet is the most useful educational and business tool since the wheel' etc. is going to persuade them otherwise.

My idea is to provide a document that will put forward pricing case scenarios for internet access, supported by exactly the sort of detailed financial arguments you had in your post, because the people in power and press are too lazy/busy to sit and do the sums themselves.

All I'm suggesting is that we compile a great big stick for everyone to beat eircom with, and do it in a clear, easily accessible and straightforward manner so that it's clear to anyone who reads it that this discriminatory pricing is allowing a monopoly company to unofficially retain its monopoly status, cream profits off its customers and be 'dog in the manger' with its network.

seamus

Originally posted by Minesajackdaniels
I never said flat rate was unprofitable except in the context that it certainly is for an OLO to provide without an equivalent wholesale offering. If it came across otherwise then my apologies, I'll be more clear in the future.

Ah. No, my apologies, I think I was just looking to go and rant

Now this is where is problems start. Why do you think that's a reasonable rate? Do you know eircom's operating costs? Their overheads? Perhaps they're using this overinflated per-minute internet access charging to pad out a financial shortfall elsewhere in their business? How do you know they're not?

The whole line rental issue shouldn't really come into a discussion about internet access, but of course, it's Ireland. I would assume though, that the cost of paying for a line should be directly passed onto the customer, with the obvious mark-up for the operator. Of course, like mobiles, the cost of it could be subsidised by the cost of the calls, but that's all a different matter entirely......

All I'm suggesting is that we compile a great big stick for everyone to beat eircom with, and do it in a clear, easily accessible and straightforward manner so that it's clear to anyone who reads it that this discriminatory pricing is allowing a monopoly company to unofficially retain its monopoly status, cream profits off its customers and be 'dog in the manger' with its network.

Then count me in. I'll go exploring and come up with some real figures (when I get time)

Lemming

Originally posted by Minesajackdaniels

I'm not of the 'stupid fúcking paddy' mentality, and I didn't take your charming little rant personally
/B]

Never said you were. But there's this constant defeatist attitude in this country, willing to settle for second best.

"Ah sure .. we're only a small country, we couldn't possible do it" (whatever "it" is).

The Sweeper

Actually, I'd say the defeatist attitude is directly related to the size of the country.

There's practically only one service provider for most things in Ireland. (Okay, before I get shot for this, there are small alternative providers elbowing their way in I know), but still there's one company you get your electricity from, one for your gas, virtually only one for your phone. In a way I think Irish people aren't used to shopping around for alternative deals, therefore there isn't the level of pressure for alternative providers.

As a result, I don't think people fully appreciate what they're getting themselves into when they sign up for a service, or what sort of service they should be getting.

Example: my 78 year old uncle was persuaded to change his home phone to Esat by a door to door sales rep late last year. He signed up for the new deal on the spot. Now to be fair to the sales rep, he's 78 and not the sharpest chisel in the box so I don't know what was explained to him and what wasn't, but basically his eircom line rental bill arrived, he just ignored it because he didn't understand that he was still with eircom for line rental, and subsequently he got cut off.

He assumed it was a phone company cock-up and went off and decided he was going to get a mobile phone.

Now some little bástard sales rep in an allegedly reputable mobile phone store around the south centre of Dublin sold my 78 year old uncle the most expensive, top of the range, wap enabled effing radio-playing make-yer-mornin-coffee bloody mobile phone he could find. Which my uncle can't use, (for starters because he doesn't understand ANY of it), because his fingers are literally too thick and crippled with arthritis to hit the keypad numbers individually. That and he can't see the effing thing.

The poor aulfella doesn't even realise he has to pay for calls, he thinks his initial outlay (over €200 apparently) has set him up for life now.

Right, okay so he's not exactly about to start surfing the web any day soon (unless he figures out the wap function on that mobile) but it's still an example of the level of service provision out there from people who just want to sell you a service and don't really give a toss what happens to you afterwards.

Cond0r

Sure it's always been like that. Even when it comes to food shopping and stuff. Especially the older generation. They go to the same shop every week or every month for their supply of food no matter how much the shop charges. If the shop upped the prices by 200% they'd keep going there. There is no competition for anything in Ireland really. If prices go up, everyone just accepts it. There's no uproar if something increases. It's depressing really.
Sorry if this post is totally off topic. But it's directly related to what MAJD was saying.

C.

Fallschirmjager

Ladies, straighten your thongs please...we were starting to have a discussion before the panty slinging began...so settle down..your hormones will level..


ok, here is my point..

Jack Daniels (good drink, good point, but wrong i think)

The arguement for business is simple -- make money. I have no problem with that -- in fact we are all part of this so -- hey lets move on

1. eircon have to make money?
i believe that is the simple point...replace eircon with any name you want


the problem you have not mentioned is what is going to happen teclos in the near future...and i do mean near

the market is moving to a solution that comms are not a luxury they are a necessity -- a bit like business air. The market is moving to mobile. Anyone who thinks that land lines are the way to go -- need to get their head examined (maybe cos they used the old phones too much!)

THe market is moving to high bandwidth devices (not phones) that utilise a wireless solution for everything from buying coke to talking to your friends to watching porn. Now if you are cynical-- you will think -- **** off, Falls, that 10 years away -- NO IT AINT -- and even if that is so-- a land line company better move or begin to move now. THat is why so many comms companies are in trouble -- in the future very few people will work in these companies -- which is why eircon is in **** -- they have too many people to run too small a business. Jack - you said business is not called 'favours' good point -- eircon have to realise that near 75% redundancies are now necessary and with that is a replacement strategy for technology -- something else they have not faced up to -- yes some fault here is the government and the unions.

THE only -- THE ONLY solution for the fixed line business is not HIGH but HUGE speed internet access. It has nothing to do with low population numbers, and i dont buy the 'no money' arguements-- we have in the country some of the highest mobile phone per head numbers...and still growing -- why -- because a new company, even now is in the market. Once you accept that mobile devcies are the way to go..they you have to accept that hard wired system must change..and what do we have

a company willing to sit with 1P a minute -- is a company destined to fail-- rather then EMBRACING the change they reject it outright, they delay, they tell the comission to **** off, the same comission whos sole role is to increase competition....and by implication increase numbers of people working (no the concept does not contradict the 75% job reduction arguement..the idea is that you have choice between loads of options).

Rather then looking at the negatives lets look at the positives...eircon should be driving change -- any company that does not force change is destined to fail -- ask anyone -- anyone who runs any company. eircon are stagnating. they are trying to turn the clock back..that is impossible. The reality is that we must as a country institute a new knowledge economy. where eircon cant do it or esat cant do -- the government must intervene -- FOR ALL OUR SAKES -- that is what we are paying then for. The same arguement about bandwidth does not hold true...we have lost , and are loosing work because of lack of foresight -- but they changed the law and that was Mary Rourke FFS!. Now please tell me you understand if she can do it, anyone can.

I understand that eircon should earn money, i actually look forward to the day when they do (remeber the view people in the UK had of BT!) becuase when they do they will be offering us what is needed. DO they have to risk change? yes cos here is a BUSINESS fact -- if you dont risk, you dont earn. the bigger the risk, the bigger the potential earning or losses. You have to have faith and a business plan and you will suceed because you want it to-- but you have to want it to. On a seperate note, This incidentally is why government workers will never be paid the same as the private sector, they dont have the same risk. you want to earn what they do in the private sector -- take the RISK -- work there. moving swiftly on from that contentious issue to the one at hand...

SO eircon are facing a dilemma, do we stay and earn nothing or very little..or do we invest in the future...

they will die if they do not accept that a mobile phone is better for personal comms they a land line. Ok, for example, how many out there now will look at networking their home the next time they buy...that is change...i am now looking at wireless networks or hard wiring my house..or both..whats stops me -- the cost and a ****ing 56k connection from eircon. No its not **** -- its fact, next time in the airport count the numers with mobile phones, computers, etc -- it is bigger then you think.

2. government
the government role is to make us suceed as a nation. that is how i measure their success. We have. trust me when i was growing up, we would turn our heads on o'connell bridge when a big BMW went by..now look at the numbers have we gotten better-- i think so. i never understood the governemnt plan for more dark fibre, because it is not part of a plan. THis in my opinion is what the ODTR should be ****ing doing, rather then saving money for the exchequer by not spending it.... perhaps now with 3 of them..we may see change.

the government should be looking and saying -- what is going to help us become the society of the future (and despite what you might think -- we are ****ing good at this, look at the work now and you can say call centre this call ****ing centre that-- the point is they are here). THis change is fast. it is happending faster then you would think and the narrow mindness of some of european colleagues (namely UK, Fr) in charging billions for 3G licenses was so incredibly narrow minded it defies belief. What we do here is our choice and this is where small is good...lets look at what it would take to use all the technolgies to get people on-line, to train people about the benefits, remember we are getting older and as we progress the number of people who are computer aware is increasing dramatically-- that is what we will have to do..everyone from terminfeckin to ballina..thats the opportunity that complnies have..and what the governemnt has to do-- get them on-line now.. FORGET Tthe ****ing roads -- they wont be as big an issue in 20 years anyway as more and more poeple work from home..i know this sounds bizarre and almost sci-fi -- but i assure you it is there for the taking...IF we act, IF

so Jack it depends on your outlook, depressed and narrow yes, or should we look to the future with optimism and a feeling that the second celtic tiger is about to launch...i vote for number 2, it depends on if you believe it or not...and do you want to RISK change or stay in the shadows with the view that we are just too small....

the choice is yours...i know which one im picking..

CHANGE is a good thing, it brings good things..LETS EMBRACE IT