I have a lot to learn.....

prophet88

This is for anyone who posted a reply to my virus enquiry. I appreciate the advice i was given and upon thinking of your position, maybe could have worded it different so as not to annoy anyone. What i am saying is though, i have surfed the net and i have found code, i have found virus programs ready to infect at one site while searching for code. Thats why i thought if they distributed them out on the net then it wouldn't sound as harsh if i asked after the safe way. Trust is a bitch huh?... The problem is now that i cant find the god-damn site again. I was searching for a while to find it and never bookmarked it seeing as im at a web cafe. To finish my question though, you can read all you want about a virus and its life but you can only learn so much so can somebody please post me a link where i can get some indept descriptive information about the subject including repair and removal tools please?

Dizz

Look to IRC for useless stuff (tho I do like the ideas of code morphing etc) like that. You might even get infected there if you are lucky! Yay!

Dizz

leeroybrown

Experimenting with a virus isn't a very productive use of computer time. You'd be far better off doing something more productive. If you want to know about about viruses and software problems join a few security mailing lists and read on-line, but I'd never deliberately mess with possibly damaging software.

If you find a problem ... report it!

phobos

But having read some of your posts, and considering your chosen alias, were you born in 1988 by any chance?

No offence if you're not, but if you think that anybody on these boards will entertain your virii requests, you are terribly mistaken. The programming methodologies that virii use, can only be used for malware. So for you to suggest that you are only interested in how they work, would mean that you want to know how to create malware. There is no good side to any of this. Your creations could/would cause more damage than you think.

In your last thread you said you wanted to unleash some mallicious code on your machine. I don't know why someone would want to do that, because every virus behaves differently. All a virus is, is a piece of code that doesn't something of a nusence(sp?). Take for example a worm. It's uses a piece of code to replicate itself. If you learned how to do that, what good could you put it to.

Personally I find the whole area very childish and non productive. Nothing good comes of virus programming. I and several of my friends are programmers, and have been so for years. Any of us could create malware, but it's not something you do. You will earn nothing but a poor reputation amongst your peers and the rest of us, if we ever found out (what good is that). If you want to get in to writing software, why don't you put your time in to making something good and stop wasting the time of others that will only end up looking down on you if keep this kind of thing up.

Seriously, cop-on :rolleyes:

;-phobos-)

Martyr

I don't really want to get involved in this discussion, as I agree with most of whats been said so far on the subject of virus writing.

Somtimes, I think It would be best if I keep quiet because I'll probably get attacked, labelled a lamer or whatever for being interested in the creation of viruses.
I understand why some people can't see any reason to be interested in how they work, unless they want to destroy someones computer data.

I am interested in virus coding, but only from an educational point of view.
I have never ever spread a virus, or coded malware of any sort for that matter.
I think if everyone was educated a little on the subject, it would be less of a problem today.
I was only infected once by a virus which was before I began to read articles on the subject.

I don't write viruses, nor do I spread them or see them as a good way to be creative with your programming skills.
I am simply interested in some of the tricks they use which could be applied for constructive purposes.

Although anyone programming long enough can create malware, not just anyone out there can create a good virus.

When I say a good virus, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that a program which damages data without a users consent can be a good thing.

But certainly, a virus that has taken much thought,preperation and time coding almost never includes a destructive payload anyway, that is usually added by some asshole later.

Most good viruses will introduce a new technique or put a theory into practice.

The fact that the technique may be used in a malicious program gives the whole theory a bad name, or it can be completely ignored as anything but useful.

Most mature virus writers out there today, see destructive payloads as childish behaviour themselves.
A mature virus writer would be one between 25-30 years old.

As for it being non-productive, yeah, I would say alot of the good bio coders out there today could better spend their time on somthing else.

Polymorphic/encryption/packing and recently this year Metamorphic coding techniques which can be useful to stop crackers reversing your executable code have been developed and researched by virus writers for years.

The Metamorphic virus (MetaPHOR) for example, which was created by a member of the 29a group, I thought was true genius.
I really was impressed by the engine.

90% of over 10,000 lines of assembler code was the actual engine to decipher the virus body.
Its very complex and could only be produced by someone with alot of programming experience.

It didn't contain a destructive payload, just a messagebox that would be displayed every 14th of every month to display "Free Palestine".
However, I do acknowledge that the result of an executable being infected by MetaPHOR on occasion could destroy the program, I think the metamorphic engine was impressive.

If you can see the benifits though, of a metamorphic engine being used in say..your software application which needs to be protected from software crackers, you can see how it may be useful.

I admire their skills to produce innovating new programming ideas, not what those ideas are used for in the end, if its malicious.

I'm just saying that some good things have come out of virus research, and although most of the individuals out there today are lamers with nothing better to do, there are some talented programmers too.

Gavin

Get off the high horses.
He might be interested in actually working for an av company....

Gav

Hobbes

Unlikely. If that was the case why hasn't he checked any of the AV sites? A lot of them give history on every virus created and how they work. What they don't supply is the code.

Joe, nice post.

phobos, I have actually seen a virus which had commercial application

The first was a demonstration of creating a system of replicating data between machines (long before the interweb ).

I also recall the guy who wrote soundtracker wrote a virus to target a particular version of his own program which was pirated without his knowledge. (but that could be an urban legend).

Anyway if that's all the information you want go to antivirus product softwares site.

Martyr

Thanks Hobbes.
You can read what the author of MetaPHOR has to say for himself here.

http://www.virusbtn.com/magazine/archives/200207/record_straight.xml

The Corinthian

Good post Joe

Every now and then you see a good virus. By that I mean an original one and not something slightly altered by a script kiddie who does not understand the code. Every now and then you find a virus that will have something new in it - something clever.

However, viruses are amonst the most difficult of all apps to read, as they are often either purposely obfuscated or the author does not believe in coding conventions indenting :rolleyes:

As such, from an educational viewpoint one is best starting off with other apps to learn from, rather than virii. IRC bots are a good and interesting alternative to look at.

phobos

Originally posted by Hobbes
phobos, I have actually seen a virus which had commercial application

Of course there's always one

I agree, and I could think of some examples, but can you honestly sit there and tell me that learning common virus writing techniques is going to (most likely) create something constructive. I think not. Anyway at no point did the originator of this thread mention learning, with the intention of combating virii. Fair enough to write AV software the programmer will have to know a good deal about virii coding techniques, bus as I already said this isn't the intention of prophet88.

Take a teenager (13-17 years old), coming in to a BBS and asking about virus progamming techniques. I bet the last thing on their mind is how to get rid of them. I don't mean to tarnish every teenage programmer with the same brush, but it's commonly known, why people write virii, and the motive for doing so is commonly found amongst teenage (males generally).

Someone mentioned that it wouldn't be a bad thing if people were educated more about virii. I agree, but I don't think it would be a good idea to go in to any detail how they could be written. Crackers, Malware coders, would go out there and learn how to create such destructive software, but by merely educating the public in incorrect fashion could kick start an army of script kiddies in to action. You definately don't want that to happen. It's like handing out weapons to kids, and hoping they won't use them. Of course they are going to use them, because they think it brings them a sense of power.

While I was doing my degree, I was always aware of how lecturers covered certain topics. I remember when people started using the JavaMail API to do certain things that would be considered malware (I'm not going to mention what they did here, and give people ideas), but I'm talking about average programming students. They learned a new programming technique and the first practical application of this technique that popped in to their heads was malware. These people weren't bad minded or criminals, but they now had the ability to create something that could be considered malware, and they knew this, and it excited them. This is not a good thing, when people start to feel powerful because they have a skill that they can use to interfere with others. I've seen students in college that can't think of anything else but to create malware. It's so sad. How many times I've freaked at some git, who thought it was funny to have the Windows desktop start shaking all over the place every few mins. Writing virii is simply the next step for these people, and it crap to think that they've received the same education as myself, and look what they are using it to do. The worst part is their motive, merely a false sense of power :mad:

;-phobos-)

prophet88

Ok guys, i took the time to read your replies and as i thought, i got the negative response, except for joe, thank you i appreciate the content of your post:) Anyway i wont bother you with the subject again because unfortunately for most of you and of course me, you guys have heard this kind of gammit before and i bet most of you have suffered in some form from a virus. I will seek my answers elsewhere and hopefully i can find the key to learning about the virus. Just a final note, If i had have asked about programming in a different form, like say i had python problems, i bet you guys would swamp me with posts offering help but (for my loss) you guys dont know me and so can't trust me which is the only reason my questions comes accross as being, i dont know, somewhat hostile. I want to learn but dont believe in making friends just to do so, you know what i mean...

Thanks again for your time and help.

Prophet

prophet88

By the way, (phobo) I just read your last post there, i skipped it the first time cause i knew the content it held but i have to post this. You are a little blind no? If you read the top post you will see that i do mention that i want to learn and you read the origional post titled 'Virus Enquiry' you will see the same. I am 21, not a god damn teenager so it just goes to show that you dont know and you dont got what it takes. I appreciate the time you gave me for your response but i would rather you just infect me than post me crap like that ok.....

Thank you

phobos

Right you just said if you came in here and asked your questions differently, ie re Python, we wouldn't have a problem. OF course we wouldn't have a problem. But the second you mentioned why you wanted to learn about certain things, we all got suspicious. If you asked such a question in a college institution, you would probably be asked to leave you're course (with no buts or excuses, like the ones you've tried to use on us).

I'm not trying to piss you off (which I'm obviously doing), but I still don't see any good coming out of this. Perhaps you should change your tactics to "how could I create a AV scanner", and then you will probably get the answers you require. I am pretty sure everywhere else will do the same.

I'll leave it at that :rolleyes:

;-phobos-)

prophet88

I dont get mad, i value opinion as much as the one i offer. Maybe you guys dont know this but after being intrested in computers for some years now i have only bought my first pc recently so there is such a wide angle of stuff to learn. Now, before i connect to the internet, i want to know in my head that i can surf safely and know when i am about to be ****ed or just even when i run into some trouble and i think like everything that it is only fair i learn so i dont walk into something blindly. Its easy down here at the web caf, it aint my system so what do i care if it crashes or crumbles. All i want is knowledge, (jesus i sound like i'm defending myself in a courtroom:) ) Anyway, thanks for the posts phobo. Ps:There was mention of AV sites earlier, whats that?

Thanks again.........


Prophet....

Hobbes

http://www.symantec.com/

Gavin

Originally posted by phobos
Right you just said if you came in here and asked your questions differently, ie re Python, we wouldn't have a problem. OF course we wouldn't have a problem. But the second you mentioned why you wanted to learn about certain things, we all got suspicious. If you asked such a question in a college institution, you would probably be asked to leave you're course (with no buts or excuses, like the ones you've tried to use on us).
/

Get kicked out of his course ? I wouldn't have much respect for a course where one would be afraid to ask questions like that for fear of such repercussions ! Ah but of course, the lecturers might think the the extreme power of being a programmer has gone to his head. Perhaps they should lecture students in morals as well, so as to use their power for the forces of good.

Gav

deRanged

I don't think there would be a problem asking questions like that in a college situation. I know I asked my lecturers questions like that
when I started my course and they were perfectly happy to answer them. It is a valid interest.

Gerry

Originally posted by phobos
Right you just said if you came in here and asked your questions differently, ie re Python, we wouldn't have a problem. OF course we wouldn't have a problem. But the second you mentioned why you wanted to learn about certain things, we all got suspicious. If you asked such a question in a college institution, you would probably be asked to leave you're course (with no buts or excuses, like the ones you've tried to use on us).

Thats utter bs. I know that in maynooth, where I am doing my cs degree, they would be overjoyed at the very fact that one of their students showed a real interest in programming, even if it was for malware. So would any decent college I reckon. They will never kick anyone for being interested in programming.

prophet88

If i were ever kicked out of college for wanting to learn, by god i'd make a fortune off the ****s before i let them rest. By the way, www.symantec.com was useful. Thanks....

I'm starting a VTOS course in september so at least that aint college.. Gotta go, Caf is closing.

phobos

I still don't know about the college thing. In my years of college, I saw many students that let the power of the skill go to their heads. They made it difficult for the rest of us, with stupid pranks (that were often serious) running free on the college network. This IMO is a more modern instance of unacceptable social behaviour.

Some people in here probably got me wrong, on the throwing out of college bit. But I still stick by my guns when I say lecturers should be vigilant towards malpractice in the computer labs. I know a lecturer loves to hear a student ask questions, and where I come from that was so common. I don't have any time personally for people who attend CS based courses and don't display a form of interest (be it through asking questions or working on side line project of their own, as long as they are productive of course). I say this because there are too many money driven muppets taking the place of true hackers in these courses. I know that money driven muppets probably wouldn't understand why people would want to write malware or even anything on the side for that matter. I understand it, but I go a step further and choose to put my skills to good use.

Now in this thread prophet is obviously not interested in writing something mallicious (or is he, we don't know). Perhaps he is just another one of those people that I had to combat in college, that tried to make life worse for the rest of us. Perhaps he is simply just like me, inquisitive, curious, but just happened to start a thread on a topic that sparked suspicion amongst people that have learned that it's safer to be paranoid than, not at all.

I don't know. All I can say is that prophet I hope you are going to do something good, with that I wish you luck. But surely people have to understand that not every curious student has the best intentions.

;-phobos-)

Gavin

Originally posted by phobos

I still don't know about the college thing. In my years of college, I saw many students that let the power of the skill go to their heads.

The power of the skill ? What bollix are you talking ? Like Lex Luthor or something, out to hack the planet.

They made it difficult for the rest of us, with stupid pranks (that were often serious) running free on the college network. This IMO is a more modern instance of unacceptable social behaviour.

Indeed, let's hang them all for their interruption of your goals of reaching a programming Zen.

I know a lecturer loves to hear a student ask questions, and where I come from that was so common. I don't have any time personally for people who attend CS based courses and don't display a form of interest (be it through asking questions or working on side line project of their own, as long as they are productive of course).

What, so do you have any friends ?

I say this because there are too many money driven muppets taking the place of true hackers in these courses.

true hackers eh ! What, like ones that have the force ? Sure the true hackers would be intelligent enough to not have themselves pushed out of the course by the 'money grabbers'.

I know that money driven muppets probably wouldn't understand why people would want to write malware or even anything on the side for that matter. I understand it, but I go a step further and choose to put my skills to good use.

Good work young padawan. For your next task you can aid Captain Planet in the saving of the world from pollution.

Now in this thread prophet is obviously not interested in writing something mallicious (or is he, we don't know). Perhaps he is just another one of those people that I had to combat in college,

Did you duel with them at dawn to establish your crime fighting role ?

I don't know. All I can say is that prophet I hope you are going to do something good, with that I wish you luck. But surely people have to understand that not every curious student has the best intentions.

Really ? you don't say.

Gav

Trojan

Hey guys,

Post locked before it decends into muppetry.

btw the plural of "virus" is "viruses" *not* "virii" (google this for many explanations should you not believe me).

Cheers,
Al.