Ireland joins the flat rate society

lynchie

From the register:

Esat could introduce flat-rate Internet access by the end of the summer, ElectricNews.Net has learned.

Esat had previously said that it would launch flat-rate, which allows people to be on-line for as long as they like for a single monthly fee, sometime this year but no timeframe was given. Sales representatives in Esat Fusion, however, are now telling callers that the service will be available to customers within the next couple of months.

BT, which owns Esat Fusion, is already offering its Openworld flat-rate package to UK customers for STG15.99 (EUR25) per month in the UK. The small size of the Irish market might, however, mean higher charges than that.

Peter Evans, Esat's director of products, told ElectricNews.Net that he is hopeful that flat-rate will be available shortly. "We want to be able to offer flat-rate as quickly as possible because consumers and businesses have been calling for it," said Evans.

He said that the government and the telecoms regulator are putting increased pressure on the industry to deliver flat-rate products.

"Esat has been in discussions with Eircom and the ODTR for the last year and a half regarding the flat-rate interconnection charges that might have to be paid to Eircom. We are hoping that the issue will be resolved shortly and I would like to think Esat will be able to offer flat-rate access to its customers within the next three to four months, if not sooner," commented Evans.

A meeting between the ODTR and parties interested in offering flat-rate access is due to take place on 9 July, and it is hoped that pricing structures might be hammered out at this gathering.

Irish Internet users groups and business bodies have been calling for the introduction of flat-rate Internet access for years. They believe that it will increase the numbers of Irish people who use the Internet and help establish Ireland as a leading e-commerce hub. Only around a third of people in Ireland use the Internet regularly, which pales in comparison to other countries such as the US where flat-rate access is readily available.

However, previous attempts by both Esat and Eircom to introduce flat-rate floundered. The nearest any Irish Internet service provider has come has been Esat, which offered flat-rate access during off-peak times via its Surf No-Limits package. But, the service was cancelled last year due to what Esat said was its "over-use" by certain customers.

At the time, the then head of Esat Fusion, Derek Kickham, said that the package was costing Esat too much money, but that the company would be keen to do it again.

Over two years ago it appeared that Eircom would introduce flat-rate, but it never materialised. The company has recently said that it will only introduce the service when it is financially viable for it to do so.

© ElectricNews.net. ®

strat

call me a doubting thomas but il believe it when i see it

seamus

Originally posted by StrataGIST
call me a doubting thomas but il believe it when i see it

Me too.

"Esat has been in discussions with Eircom and the ODTR for the last year and a half regarding the flat-rate interconnection charges that might have to be paid to Eircom. We are hoping that the issue will be resolved shortly and I would like to think Esat will be able to offer flat-rate access to its customers within the next three to four months, if not sooner," commented Evans.

Either IOFFL have missed something, or he's lying/miscommenting (which I suspect).

A meeting between the ODTR and parties interested in offering flat-rate access is due to take place on 9 July, and it is hoped that pricing structures might be hammered out at this gathering.

Did IOFFL know about this??

However, previous attempts by both Esat and Eircom to introduce flat-rate floundered.

Hmmmm.....was anyone here on nolimits from Eircom? NO, didn't think so......

Of course, the whole, 'financially viable' excuse again :rolleyes:. Will eircom ever explore an avenue where you need to wait a while before your profits come in? No. :rolleyes:

yellum

Is this guy Evans related to that Evans one in Eircom ?

dahamsta

Either IOFFL have missed something, or he's lying/miscommenting (which I suspect).

IrelandOffline is only too well aware of Esat's claim of long-term negotiations with Eircom for FRIACO-style services. IrelandOffline has never been provided with a satisfactory explanation for Esat's reluctance to file a complaint on this matter with the ODTR. Our phone numbers and email addresses are, as always, available on the website if Esat care to comment.

Did IOFFL know about this??

Until we read the article, no. Oddly, Esat and the ODTR seem to be the only ones that know about it, which doesn't really fit with the claim that "interested parties" will be attending this alleged meeting. IrelandOffline knows of several other parties that are interested in FRIACO-style services, yet they don't appear to have been notified of this sudden meeting.

Of course, the whole, 'financially viable' excuse again

Eircom's claims of financial unviability fly in the face of implementations in other countries. IrelandOffline would be pleased to provide evidence of financial viability in the United Kingdom, and would be happy to arrange meetings with OLO's in the UK should that become necessary.

adam

BoneCollector

Esat could introduce flat-rate Internet access by the end of the summer, ElectricNews.Net has learned.

Blah blah blah....

is`nt this the same kinda head lines ms O`Rourke was doing in the press several times during her term of office..
And 5 years on.. where still waiting??
At the momment this just sounds like PR, i would like to be wrong.. but with statements like.... "by End of..."
I`ve been told many things about many things where i was quoted.. "by end of..." this has no meaning unless there is an actual date attatched to it and is not attatched to any statement like "end of..". "end of summer" what is there definition of "end of summer"?
sept, oct, jan2003?

Anyway..
thats me otta here!

MarkR

Their definition of a summer would probably be a summer to equate with the ones they have New York. So we'd have to wait til we hit about 100 degrees farenheit to start our stopwatches! Cheer up though, what with global warming and everything, i'm sure it won't be more than 10 or twenty years.

Mark

Kix

I was talking to an Esat customer care rep yesterday, as it happens. To my surprise, they allowed me to change my CLI on my NoLimits account - apparently they decided a few months ago it was "unfair" to drop people from the service just because their phone had changed. Anyhow, a fairly lengthy conversation insued afterwards.

I mentioned the story to him and although he professed to know nothing about it he did say that the only way it would be possible to get flat rate going would be to "get Eircom out of the loop" and "charge people for line rental ourselves" and it was something they where trying to get with the ODTR. Essentially, unbundling - perhaps "virtual unbundling" if no actual equipment installation in the exchange is involved.

So, perhaps this is a substantial clue as to what Esat are up to?

K

segadreamcast

End of summer ? Since when did we start getting those pesky things again...

aidan_dunne

I've just thought of something. The ENN article said:

A meeting between the ODTR and parties interested in offering flat-rate access is due to take place on 9 July, and it is hoped that pricing structures might be hammered out at this gathering.

But the thing is, it seems the only people who are going to be at this meeting are representatives of Eircom, Esat and the ODTR. The "parties interested" in this case are only Esat and Eircom and I bet you none of the other potential "interested parties" such as UTV Internet were invited to or even told about this meeting. Seems to me that Eircom and Esat are plotting something between themselves and ignoring the other potential "interested parties."

I just wonder if UTV heard anything about this and, if they haven't, perhaps they need to be e-mailed about it so they might be able to send someone down to "gatecrash" the party at the last minute on Tuesday. Does anybody know if UTV know about all this and are planning on attending this meeting because, if they don't know, I'm going to send them an e-mail telling them about it and encouraging them to attend as I think it's important they do. I would also recommend everybody else doing the same because that way they'll know how importnat we all think this meeting is and how important it is they have a presence at it.

dahamsta

I can confirm that only operators have been invited to this meeting. Not one Internet Service Provider has been invited. Not one.

adam

Kevok

Well theoretically the ISP's don't actually need to be there, this could just be hammering out the details of the wholesale cost from eircom that Esat is trying to get.

An ISP there trying to get flat rate when Its quite *possible* this is all just about the line rentals etc wouldn't really make sense would it?

dahamsta

Who'll be selling flat-rate Internet services Kevok?

adam

BoneCollector

So, perhaps this is a substantial clue as to what Esat are up to?

According to a previous post:
The EU is quite pisssed at the local loops not being sufficiently unbundled here as to allow all other telcos wishing to gain business, to only have to install hardware at the customers Location, and not have to go to the exchanges. Effectively the other telcos would not have to purchase all this extra crp eircom keep bundling to facilitate access thus reducing cost. (I think!?)

aidan_dunne

Okay, what we really need to know is is this meeting about Esat (and other operators) being able to do the whole line rental thing themselves or is it about a flat-rate internet pricing agreement? According to the ENN article it's about flat-rate, according to Kevok and BoneCollector it's got more to do with the loop access issue.

If it's the former I feel strongly that the other ISP's should also be represented at this meeting as it will be them who will be selling the flat-rate services, as Adam pointed out. If the other ISP's such as UTV Internet don't take part in this meeting, Eircom and Esat could agree to some ridiculous pricing model which would prevent other ISP's like UTV from entering the market and Irish internet users would still be stuck with the same lack of choice when it comes to an ISP, i.e. either go with an Esat-run ISP like Ocean or IOL or an Eircom-run one like Eircom.net or Indigo. We need more choice and it looks to me like Esat and Eircom could be in some sort of collusion to tie-up the Irish ISP market between themselves and prevent competition.

If this meeting has got more to do with the loop/line rental issue, I think this will be more of an issue regarding voice traffic than internet. Okay, granted it would cut costs for operators and might lead to flat-rate in the future but I think the operators would probably concentrate on the voice market first and try to convince customers to switch providers and all that rather than use it as a way of providing flat-rate, at least for the foreseeable future, if you can understand what I'm saying. Basically, we would still be stuck with a per-minute pricing model while the operators concentrate on the voice market and then when they feel they've won enough customers they might look at providing flat-rate on the unbundled loops.

But, as you can see, we still don't really know what this meeting is about and the "secrecy" about this meeting between Eircom and Esat looks very suspicious to me, almost as if it's a meeting where they will be conspiring between themselves how to shaft the customer even further and continue their strangehold on the Irish market and prevent competition. Still, does anybody think it would be worthwhile for me to e-mail UTV Internet about it and see do they (a) know about this meeting, (b) know what the meeting is actually about and (c) plan on attending the meeting? Or perhaps should I e-mail Eircom or Esat and try and find out or would it be a complete waste of time as they probably wouldn't comment on it? What do you all think because I'm sure you'd like some more details/answers just as much as I would.

Kevok

Who'll be selling flat-rate Internet services Kevok?

ISP's get their flat rate numbers from the operators do they not? In that case the cost of those numbers is negotiated between ISPs and the Operators (be it Esat or Eircom).

What I said above is, the meeting may be negotiation between Esat, Eircom and the ODTR regarding the cost of PROVIDING said flate rate services, so really ISPs have no business being there at all.

When (if) these services do become financially viable for Esat to provide then the ISPs can get involved.

Although Aidan is right that the ISPs should get a look in If its about flate rate, not until Esat wrangles a good deal (ha!) from eircom regarding wholesale and line rental.

Theres nothing there yet for the ISPs to negotiate about.

SkepticOne

We have had many false starts over the last few years and this could be another. Then again, this is the first bit of news specifically about flat rate. We are making enquiries but, as Aiden_Dunne points out, we may not be able to get much of value. All we really know right now is that a number of ISPs have not been invited. This doesn't sound too promising, after all, it was ISPs that introduced the Internet to the Irish public, not telcos. It could be, therefore, that the whole thing is being set up to fail.

On the other hand, FRIACO and in turn flat-rate will not occur without such meetings involving a number of players and the ODTR. So, in this respect, it's a step in the right direction.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Kevok
ISP's get their flat rate numbers from the operators do they not? In that case the cost of those numbers is negotiated between ISPs and the Operators (be it Esat or Eircom).

My understanding is that the reason that there is no 56k flat rate is because of lack of a FRIACO deal from Eircom.

Once such a deal is worked out, then OLOs and ISPs will be buying much the same service from Eircom.

Eircom and ESAT might compete to provide backhaul, to these ISPs, but that doesn't matter if no FRIACO deal is worked out with Eircom.

Of course, the ISPs can approach ESAT for pstn lines into the POP, but in this case, ESAT are merely reselling an Eircom service and are wholly dependent on Eircom's prices. Eircom and ESAT are not really competing for the ISPs custom but are in a wholesaler/retailer relationship.

BoneCollector

According to the ENN article it's about flat-rate, according to Kevok and BoneCollector it's got more to do with the loop access issue.

There are 2 seperate issues here...
Esat are meeting to sort out flat rate (supposidly)

Weather anything is exchanged regarding LLU will be a seperate matter, since LLU issue effects all potential copetitors and not just esat and is suppose to facilitate reduced costs and efficiency, for when being offered services from other telcos. from what i can see, as far as LLU is concerned, its not errcom that need to push this it government?
although it may be government that will be fleased for not facilitating LLU from the EU, if i remember correctly, where`nt there suppose to be large fines that could be imposed on core telco operators(errcom) that obstructed LLU and all its facilities?

Winters

Originally posted by lynchie
which offered flat-rate access during off-peak times via its Surf No-Limits package. But, the service was cancelled last year due to what Esat said was its "over-use" by certain customers.

Well then how am I still using it?

What will happen to us noLimits users if they were to introduce a flat-rate package??? Im guessing that we would automaticly be transferred to the new one.... any ideas?

Kevok

Well it wasn't "cancelled" but new sign-ups aren't taken anymore and a sizeable chunk of ppl were disconnected.

Although of those that got disconnected, enough bitching got them reconnected.

Wish i had the good sense to signup at the time. (didn't use the internet much then)

MarkR

Me and my brother shared a nolimits connection. Then i moved out. *sniff* Come back no limits!

Urban Weigl

"A meeting between the ODTR and parties interested in offering flat-rate access is due to take place on 9 July, and it is hoped that pricing structures might be hammered out at this gathering."

I was talking to 3 people at the ODTR today, and none of them were aware of this supposed meeting.

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