Broadband Evangelism

Dustaz

With the agm coming up (and the fact this has been bothering me readin the forum over the past couple of weeks) its time for my bi-monthly broadband rant.

[broadband evangalism]

I see a lot of talk about the country falling behind without 56k flatrate. I think this is a misnomer. we have already fallen behind. We have been behind for the last 12 years. Flat rate is an old 'technology' and we still dont have it. I understand that it encourages more internet use and thereby more broadband subscribers, but as each day goes by, i see it as more and more useless.

Broadband is fast becoming the norm in the US and is becoming increasingly popular in Europe. Pricing and availability are the two main factors here that differ from elsewhere.
If it were possible to drive broadband prices down to NTL area levels, then i honestly think there would be no point even fighting for flat rate access. Seriously, €40 per month? for broadband? And this from a company that is swimming debt?

Why bother with 56k if that were available in most areas.
It leads to the basic question. If NTL can offer that price (and chorus before them) Why cant eircom and esat? If there is a reason for this apart from greed and profit margins, ive forgotten and can someone enlighten me.

If telco's were to pull the finger out and start rolling out a bit more, the heightened availability and lower pricing would mean more and more people would have the oppurtunity of moving to broadband. If that were the case, what becomes the selling point of dialup? Telcos would find thier larger dialup customers gone, and would need something else to make it attractive. A FRIACO situation would take care of itself surely.
[/broadband evanglism]

Discuss, as i just banged this off without really thinking about it so theres lots of dreamland ideas and inacuracies contained. (Xian, im looking at you )

*Broadband evangalist standard disclaimer. I do not oppose flat rate, Im just trying to stimulate a bit of discussion in advance of the agm*

BoneCollector

Yes, we all know what the benifits are and that the effects are perpetual... except errcom.. they have the heads up there a***
and dont have any foresight whatsoever..

Personaly i feel the future is wireless and forget the telcos.

ando

Originally posted by Dustaz
If it were possible to drive broadband prices down to NTL area levels, then i honestly think there would be no point even fighting for flat rate access. Seriously, €40 per month? for broadband

Not everyone can get broadband, due to technical reasons or whatever... *me for instance, the best I can look for is flat rate Isdn unless NTL do a magic financial recovery*

Not everyone will pay €40 euro.. good god, my brother would'nt even pay £20 for nolimits

m1ke

agree with Dustaz 100% ..... there's no point in driving for 56k access anymore it's a totally archaic way to connect well in the past, it's time to push for broadband at a low cost. If I had to go back to using 56k flat rate / ppm or whatever i'd leave Ireland.

"Personaly i feel the future is wireless and forget the telcos." - umm... can you explain why you feel that ? because from here wireless looks like a load of old pants.

BoneCollector

there's no point in driving for 56k access anymore

You missing the point and the benifits here..
flat rate dial up is Access!
everything else can build on this..

I personaly would find it usefull to have 24/7 access.
If like me, you also have "NetSystem", which gives me upto 1mb download speed.
I do still need to connect thru dial up and flat rate access 24/7 still has its advatages. I have no limits, but that is still limited to off peak, and with no limits, netsystem is a DREAM!

So Flat rate 24/7 dialup is far from being dead.

Dustaz

Originally posted by ando


Not everyone can get broadband, due to technical reasons or whatever...

Yes, I realise this. Most people within decent range of an urban area should be able to get it however.
People living on a farm 10 miles from anywhere will probably have to wait a good 5 years for any sort of decent broadband or are stuck with satellite. I realise that if everyone had my attidude these people would suffer. I still stick to the notion that a flat rate would follow however.

Not everyone will pay €40 euro.. good god, my brother would'nt even pay £20 for nolimits

If people arent willing to pay €40 a month for no internet calls, they dont need flat rate access. The status quo suits them fine.

longword

Originally posted by ando
Not everyone can get broadband, due to technical reasons or whatever...

There's no good reason why they can't roll out IDSL (ISDN technology, 144kbps, but always-on and terminated at the exchange) or RADSL (like regular DSL but slower and goes further).

Not everyone will pay €40 euro.. good god, my brother would'nt even pay £20 for nolimits

Not everyone wants Sky Sports either, but they seem to be doing rather well within their niche.

ando

Originally posted by m1ke
there's no point in driving for 56k access anymore it's a totally archaic way to connect well in the past, it's time to push for broadband at a low cost

I agree with you, but ignoring the needs of the many is not right IE, Flat rate dial up


Dustaz:

no offence dustaz, but I think your judgment is being influenced by the fact that you already have DSL ...

You'll find that many ppl with Istream or some sort of broadband will agree with you *cough, the quote above*, but you will also find that they are looking out for themselves, as I am, that’s why I cannot agree with what you are saying.

Longwood:

Eircom have no plans for idsl or rdsl. I asked for info for that at the eircom dsl dealer launch infront of a good few MD's. I doubt eircom were lying.. but then again ... !!

Dustaz

Originally posted by ando
Dustaz:

no offence dustaz, but I think your judgment is being influenced by the fact that you already have DSL ...

Ive held this opinion since before i had DSL. Ive posted on it many times. Having said that, getting to use dsl on a daily basis has only hardened my opinion.

pertinax

I dont have adsl but i have cable. I always felt there should be more of a push for flate rate than dial up. If chorus pulls the plug on this or if it turns too expensive or it go unreliable or... ill have to go back to what? Id prefer to go back to non existant flate rate. flate rate is something every one can have, not everyone wants or needs broadband (which isnt to say they shouldnt have it anyway).

What your saying is thered be competition and decent prices so id have options but itd be so easy for eirgom to implement flate rate its a more attainable and usefull goal.

I could see them saying you have broadband what do you want flate rate for? or somethiong similar. Nope i still think flate rate should be the priority.
Does anyone else actually feel their stomach wretch when they think about the state of affairs here? must not puke.

Delphi91

Originally posted by m1ke
agree with Dustaz 100% ..... there's no point in driving for 56k access anymore it's a totally archaic way to connect well in the past, it's time to push for broadband at a low cost...

Why SHOULDN'T we push for flatrate 56k access?????????????

It might be an archaic way of connecting, but it's all that some of us are going to be able to get. Not everyone has the luxury of living within the required radius of an ADSL exchange.

...If I had to go back to using 56k flat rate / ppm or whatever i'd leave Ireland....

My heart bleeds for you!!!!! You've had the luxury of having faster than 56k access. I've never been above 45k and I'm about to hand over €200+ to Eircom for the priviledge.

The way I see it, EVERYBODY can benefit from flatrate 56k access. It would be fair to say that a minority of people will benefit from broadband in the way that ADSL is going to be available.

Saying that we should abandon 56k flatrate in favour of broadband is like jumping for the 5th step on a ladder rather than starting at the bottom and working your way up. Of COURSE we'd all love broadband, but we can't all have it. We CAN all have flatrate.

Mike

Xian

In December of last year, the Italian Regulator mandated the introduction of FRIACO. In May, the first services were rolled out

[url=http://punto-informatico.it/ps.asp?i=40094&p=1
May 10 2002][/url]

(No prices include VAT)

NGI
NGI use the AUP system, an advanced automatic management system capable of guaging user's connection time, allowing longer connection time when this does not interfere with other users' connection quality.

AUP
Allows analog or digital ISDN dial-up (including 128 Kbps). Modem-to-user ratio of 1:4. A number of levels are offered,
depending on the number of hours guaranteed connection. Static IP. Mailbox with unlimited space.
AUP 3: €35.5/month - minimum 21 hours/week connection
AUP 9: €103.5/month - minimum 63 hours/week connection
AUP 18: €207/month - minimum 126 hours/week connection

Off-Peak 4
Evening flat-rate service (Mon-Fri 18:30 to 03:00, 08:00 to 03:00 Saturday, Sunday and Holidays). Up to 28 hours/week guaranteed connection time. Allows analog or digital ISDN dial-up (including 128 Kbps)
€29.17/month when paying monthly
€27.08/month for annual subscription

Off-Peak 7
as above, but guaranteeing 49 hours/week connection time
€51/month when paying monthly
€47.42/month for annual subscription

Pay-as-you-go
A fixed-cost per-minute service
€50 for activation, including 2,000 minutes connection time.
Recharging you account costs €0.02/minute and €4.50 per recharge

COMEG
€50 - 50 hours per year
€100 - 100 hours per year
etc.

MiniFlat
5 hours/week: €180/year
10 hours/week: €360/year
14 hours/week: €480/year
35 hours/week: €1,200/year
70 hours/week: €2,400/year
100 hours/week: €3,420/year

CLIC.IT
FantaFlat
PSTN/ISDN line, paying three-monthly, quarterly or annually
Single/multi-user capability
Packages start from €37.25/month
CLIC.IT guarantees a daily average of 4 hours (120 hours per month) non-contention

ACTIVE NETWORK
Uses the Overboost system, allowing an increase in the number of lines available at times of maximum load. Minimum quarterly subscription, payable in advance.

Overboost 5
5 mailboxes with unlimited disk space
Analog/ISDN connection, minimum connection speed of 32Kbps
Disconnection after 2 hours continuous connection. Immediate reconnection is allowed but a maximum of only two hours per day is guaranteed. This package does not permit weekend connections.
€36/month

Overboost 7
As above, but allowing weekend connection and with only one mailbox and without traffic limitation [well that's what it says!]

Overboost MidNight
Connectgion from midnight to 8:00 am on workdays and from 1:00 pm Saturday to 8:00 am Monday. Minimum connection speed guaranteed is 32 Kbps but only for ISDN. As above, disconnection will occur after 2 hours connection.
€15.70

Reactive
Pre-paid packages of 30 hours at €17.43 and 240 hours at €139.44



Your serve, Dusty!

212.2.179.66

Originally posted by Dustaz
With the agm coming up (and the fact this has been bothering me readin the forum over the past couple of weeks) its time for my bi-monthly broadband rant.

[broadband evangalism]

I see a lot of talk about the country falling behind without 56k flatrate. I think this is a misnomer. we have already fallen behind. We have been behind for the last 12 years. Flat rate is an old 'technology' and we still dont have it. I understand that it encourages more internet use and thereby more broadband subscribers, but as each day goes by, i see it as more and more useless.

Broadband is fast becoming the norm in the US and is becoming increasingly popular in Europe. Pricing and availability are the two main factors here that differ from elsewhere.
If it were possible to drive broadband prices down to NTL area levels, then i honestly think there would be no point even fighting for flat rate access. Seriously, €40 per month? for broadband? And this from a company that is swimming debt?

Why bother with 56k if that were available in most areas.
It leads to the basic question. If NTL can offer that price (and chorus before them) Why cant eircom and esat? If there is a reason for this apart from greed and profit margins, ive forgotten and can someone enlighten me.

If telco's were to pull the finger out and start rolling out a bit more, the heightened availability and lower pricing would mean more and more people would have the oppurtunity of moving to broadband. If that were the case, what becomes the selling point of dialup? Telcos would find thier larger dialup customers gone, and would need something else to make it attractive. A FRIACO situation would take care of itself surely.
[/broadband evanglism]

Discuss, as i just banged this off without really thinking about it so theres lots of dreamland ideas and inacuracies contained. (Xian, im looking at you )

*Broadband evangalist standard disclaimer. I do not oppose flat rate, Im just trying to stimulate a bit of discussion in advance of the agm*

Dustaz,
These really are all 'OLD ISSUES' that have already been discussed before. People have been removed / kicked / banned from these boards for posting their opinions on these subjects. And for you to draw them down again in the hopes you will come out smelling of Roses really annoys me! I want to say a lot more but i know somehow you will disscredit what i say and move it to the Recycle Bin. Like it or not.... its time for not only you but also IOFFL to take notice of what people are saying and what people actually need / want. And actually do something about it. Otherwise you will just continue to fight a loosing battle.

212.2.179.66

SkepticOne

212.2.179.66, please don't quote entire long postings where a simple reference to the post would suffice. We don't need to read everything twice. Thanks.

rymus

Aaaaaaaaaaaaamen brother

*falls to the floor flailing his limbs wildly*

dahamsta

*falls to the floor flailing his limbs wildly*

Demons OUT!

heh

adam

Dustaz

OK, err. I may sound stupid, but i dont really get the gist of those prices xian. Are they all offered by the same company? (i take it they are, but couldnt make head nor tail of the link - i think im having a blonde morning).

i take it prices are in Lire?

ando

Is it just me, but what's Evangelism mean ?? lol

SkepticOne

Originally posted by ando
Is it just me, but what's Evangelism mean ?? lol

Evangelism E*van"gel*ismn.
The preaching or promulgation of the gospel. --Bacon.

In this case, it's the broadband gospel according to Dustaz.

timod

In essence I agree with Dustaz.... i.e. broadband is really the service we require to make full use of the internet.. however, I have to fall more in line with Xian...

let's get the simple things right...
- Flat rate dialup can be switched on tomorrow.

The current dual aim of IOFFL suits me fine.

Xian

Originally posted by Dustaz
OK, err. I may sound stupid, but i dont really get the gist of those prices xian. Are they all offered by the same company? (i take it they are, but couldnt make head nor tail of the link - i think im having a blonde morning).

i take it prices are in Lire?

OK. The companies are underlined, the prices are in euros, and I may have been overoptimistic (or just too pished) to expect my point to be adequately made by only quoting prices. So here goes.

Dustaz's agrument to campaign for broadband over flat-rate [flat-rate evangelist's standard disclaimer blah, blah blah] is that the latter is an outdated technology.

The last point Dustaz and I agreed on was that innovative pricing and services, not "killer apps", would serve to stimulate demand for internet access. Increased demand would encourage competition and investment - a larger market increases the incentive to industry to invest and gain market share.

The prices I quoted show just how much innovation is made possible by the introduction of wholesale flat-rate. The "outdated technology" (56k modems) is in 99% of computers owned by 50% of households (according to the last census), households which have been wary of using the internet because of the per-minute tariff they have to pay and which, if these packages were available here, would be more likely to be connected to the internet. This increased market benefits YOU Mr. Broadband Evangelist. It stimulates competition in broadband as telcos try to lure this growing population of internet users into using more bandwidth.

The Egyptians when they first made pyramids got it all wrong - the base wasn't big enough to support the rest of it so they collapsed. Not concentrating on flat-rate will similarly lead to a top-heavy, non-sustainable market.

Hannibal_12

This has been an interesting topic indeed. I have to say I agree with Dustaz regarding Broadband and flatrate. In my humble opinion the time for flatrate 56k is gone if you can get a similarly priced service running tens of times faster than 56k.
As I have said before 56k is far too limiting in what it can offer you. The argument is that if you succeed in increasing the number of internet users and the time they spend online(by the introduction of flatrate) that this will necessitate the introduction of cheaper and more widely available broadband.
I'm not so sure if this would be the case as even if the goal of flatrate is achieved the users of said service are still subject to the limitations of an archaic technology, one which ultimately diminishes the overall impact of the internet. Yes you can leave your computer on all day connected to the internet but there are those who do not have the inclination or the time to do this. Every file I download seems to be an absolute minimum of 5 mb, which is 20-30 minutes on a 56k, 20 -30 minutes less time I have to use the internet since the connection is effectively crippled when downloading even one file. What is the point of having 24/7 access at a miserable connection speed.
I know all the arguments regarding availability in rural areas,benefits to the homeless etc but I firmly believe that low cost broadband is a much higher priority than flatrate 56k for the majority of people. I realise that 56k modems are as plentiful as crooked politicians but broadband is becoming more of the internet standard and this will only increase in the future, I dont want to be in the breakdown lane while everyone else is in the fast lane on the information superhighway.

SkepticOne

Although it is true that we should have had broadband for the last few years, it is also the case that we should have had flat-rate even longer. In fact, there should never have been metered Internet calls. The lack of unmetered '56K' Internet has led to massive distortions in the market, the result of which has been the 'testing' of ADSL for three years followed by it's introduction at an unbelievable price.

MrPudding

Originally posted by Hannibal_12

.....................but I firmly believe that low cost broadband is a much higher priority than flatrate 56k for the majority of people.

Rubbish. Flat rate broadband is a higher priority for the majority of people on these boards or perhaps even the majority of people you know but *not* the priority for the majority of people in the country. My mother lives in NI she has the choice of DSL from UTV, BT and I think freeserve, but she just uses flat rate dial up. This costs her about 6 quid a month for unmetered evenings, weekends and bank holidays. This is more than sufficient for her needs. Why would she spend 30 quid a month for an always-on 512 connection that she will barely use? (Hey it makes me scream too.) Now if DSL cost 6 quid a month she would have it but it doesn’t so she doesn’t. This is the situation that the majority of people in this country are in. Christ, the majority of people in this country don't even know what DSL is so how can it be their highest priority? We need flat rate dial up ‘cos *that* is what the majority of the people want or at least need. As has been said many times before by people a lot more knowledgeable we need flat rate dial up to stimulate widespread demand for broadband. Eventually a broadband connection may cost 6 quid and then my mother and the majority of people on this island will have it. Until then we have to fight for both and try to educate the masses.

MDR

Mr Envy,

Is dead right, its a matter of feeding up the tree,

1 cent per minute users become,
Flat Rate Dialup Users who in turn become,
DSL/CABLE users .

Its a matter of feeding up the tree,
Our internet users are on the first rung,
I doubt very much that we will see mass take up of DSL while prices remain prohibitively high and flat-rate remains only an aspiration.

They PRIMARY objective for IOFFL IMHO (how may acronyms can I have a row) is FARCIO. It will benefit the largest part of the population and create a demand for broadband.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by MDR
FARCIO

Excellent! Kind of sums up the whole situation.

Dustaz

roflmao n1

Bigger reply to follow, im late for work

MDR

FRIACO off, lads quit busting my balls about spelling pls.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by MDR
FRIACO off, lads quit busting my balls about spelling pls.

I thought it was deliberate irony. You should have said nothing . Actually, FARCIO is a much better word in the Irish context.

MDR

Nuts,

I wasn't sure wether you where genuinely amused or having ago,
all this pressure from above is starting to kill my sense of humour,
damn bosses.

Dustaz

What skeptic said
Ill be calling it Farcio from now on:)

Hannibal_12

Originally posted by MrEnvy
Rubbish. Flat rate broadband is a higher priority for the majority of people on these boards or perhaps even the majority of people you know but *not* the priority for the majority of people in the country.

I'm sorry you feel its rubbish, I dont. Personally several people I know realise the situation with ADSl & cable and in turn several of their friends etc....,
You also misunderstood what I said, the majority of people should have and would want it over 56k any day if a) it was flatrate and b) they knew the advantages of it over 56k access and of course it was reasonably priced. The only reason it is not a higher priority is beacuse as you say some people dont know about it.
There are alot more technically savvy people here than there are members of this board. I myself have felt cheated by the slow and expensive internet years before I ever found out about IOFFL and there are so many more out there who have never heard of IOFFL.
Flatrate is suitable for your mother but is it suitable for so many people that are under time constraints to get things done, downloading even modest files for presentations, projects and a multitude of other things takes an age on slow analogue modems,flatrate doesnt change that and it never will.
I also dont see a sudden huge upsurge in demand for broadband when people all suddenly get flatrate. I dont think its going to happen, why would they pay for broadband when they are happily surfing away at 56k, which would seem will be the speed in Ireland ad infinitum. How long will it be then before we get widespread broadband, another year, two years, three years. How far behind will we be then compared to other countries?. Flatrate should have been around for the last number of years but it hasnt been and I believe broadband should now be pushed.
I could write all day on this but I wont, I'm not saying any more in the hope something will be done about broadband in Ireland within my lifetime, i.e in the next ~60 years.

MrPudding

Originally posted by Hannibal_12


I'm sorry you feel its rubbish, I don’t. Personally several people I know realise the situation with ADSl & cable and in turn several of their friends etc....,
You also misunderstood what I said, the majority of people should have and would want it over 56k any day if a) it was flat rate and b) they knew the advantages of it over 56k access and of course it was reasonably priced.

I did not misunderstand what you said. I stand by what I said. I agree that people would take broadband if it was flat rate and if it was cheap enough. The problem is getting it cheap enough. We can't even get DSL for under €100, how long do you think it will be before we get it at a rate that low or no income families can afford it. In order for broadband to replace flat rate dial up (assuming we ever get it, but you can use the UK as an example) it needs to be cheaper, preferably the same price. Like I said, I my mother could get DSL for £6 per month by God she would have it. People will not pay extra money for a service that they do not need. This would be the conversation with my mother...

Me- Hey mum, you should get a DSL connection.
Mum- What's that?
Me- It's a super fast always on connection that has a fixed cost every month.
Mum- What would I need that for?
Me- You know downloading s**t and stuff.
Mum- But I've got that dial up thingy.
Me- But this is much faster!!
Mum- So what, I've got plenty of time, I only download a few mails and do a bit of surfing.
Me- I know Mum, I appreciate that you do not download music, movies or software, I also know that some months you probably don't even spend £6 worth of time online and that you have absolutely no need for a DSL connection but you real should get one.
Mum- OK son, if it is the same price as what I'm paying I'll get it.
Me- Hmmmm

This conversation would then descend into a very sad display. I would be crying screaming "You don't know how good you have it, I know people what would kill for the options you have" Then mother would pull me to her breast and murmur softly "it's OK big son, maybe in a few years you too will have affordable broadband.

This is the problem Hannibal, not every one needs a broadband connection. I know your argument “They just don’t know they need it.” But that is wrong, believe me some people actually do not need or want a broadband connection. We have to deal with the fact that it will be many years before we have broadband at such a low price that it is a viable option for people who do not actually need it. In the meantime we can try to get broadband at a reasonable cost, i.e. low double figures, for the people who actually need or want it. At the same time we cannot forget the people who don’t want or need it. They need help too. They need someone fighting their corner so they can get a product that suits them. That’s what it comes down to; different people have different needs. We as a group have to look after them all.

Dustaz

Good to see this topic is still provoking a bit of discussion.
Anyway, a few points.

Xian, ill take just one of your Italian deals:

AUP 9: €103.5/month - minimum 63 hours/week connection

103 euros a month? for 56k? for only 63 guarenteed hours?
For 107 euro a month i get 168 hours at almost 10 times the speed of that deal. This is in the most backward country in europe as regards connectivity too. Admittidly this services isnt available everywhere, but that goes back to the point about trying to stimulate rollout. I wouldnt call that scheme an innovative pricing scheme. It is by no means alone either.

MrEnvy, i can quote a few conversations that actually happened. My dad, recently inducted into the wired world has taken to it quite well. OK, he takes about half an hour to work out how to send an email, and longer to sort out any attachments he needs to print out. This leads to big phone bills. Really big (hes completly hooked).
Me: So how much was your last bill
Dad: hehe, almost 300
Me: hahahahahahahahaha, welcome to my world, i warned you. Its ridiculous isnt it.
Dad: Yes, why is it so expensive.
Me: *explains flatrate*
Dad: yes, that would be perfect, but how do you manage, your always on the net and you dont pay that much
Me: Dsl
Dad: .......
Me: *explains dsl*
Dad: REALLY?? Ten times the speed? NO CHARGES? give me that please, can you sign me up to it
Me: Its 107 per month
Dad: hah, forget it.

Hes now forsworn lots of internet time and shouldnt run up a huge bill again (time will tell however). I was suprised tho, i always had him down as a flat-rater, but he was significantly more interested in ADSL once he knew about it. He has asked me about it a few times since.

A mate of mine moved to the Canary Islands last year with his gf (native canarian). They got a house near las palmas and did all the normal furniture and decoration things. Brian rang up the local telco to get a line in. I should say that hes not a techie type person in any way, like most people he uses email and looked at the odd webpage.
Brian: Hi, can i have a phone line installed?
Senor: Yes, It will cost X (sorry, cant remember) amount for installation and X per month.
Brian: Fair enough, when will you be round?
Senor: Sir, will you be accessing the internet much?
Brian: Yes, im an expat, so ill be checking it quite a lot
Senor: Why dont you consider ADSL, 200 euro installation and 30 euros per month after that for the benifit of etc etc etc
Brian: Great, Ill have that thanks

So there he is, on a volcanic rock in the middle of the atlantic ocean with a better DSL package than in the e-hub of europe. He had never heard of it before that phone call. I asked him was there flat rate availble to him, his answer was, and i quote :"Oh yeh, um, i think so, but who gives a toss?" (he went on to shout something about high speed porn, but thats irrelevant )

Let me amend my stance once more. We do need a flat rate product, and we do need it now. However, for the first time in a long time im hopeful of seeing it coming. The wheels do seem to be in motion with the EU's investigation and Esats upcoming package.

We need to start working NOW to insure that in 10 years time there is noone writing on a forum like this saying 'Yeh, 10 years ago there was a broadband push, it sorta died there tho. How long will we have to tolerate capped 1meg connection when they have 2 gig fibre in america and europe'.

Hannibal_12

So there he is, on a volcanic rock in the middle of the atlantic ocean with a better DSL package than in the e-hub of europe. He had never heard of it before that phone call. I asked him was there flat rate availble to him, his answer was, and i quote :"Oh yeh, um, i think so, but who gives a toss?" (he went on to shout something about high speed porn, but thats irrelevant )

I know I said I wasnt going to reply to this anymore, but dam thats funny. "The E-Hub" of Europe Vs a Volcanic rock in the middle of the ocean and who's more advanced?. Hmmmm, sunshine,women,drink & ADSL, Off to the airport, bye.

I also agree with everything you say, word for word. I too could quote so many conversations with people that are the exact mirror of what you posted. Its a shame that access to such a resource like the internet is stifled by greedy businessmen more intent on lining their own pockets than providing any kind of decent service.

Xian

In case you thought I'd admitted defeat on this one, I've been busy making a haems of the ISC presentation yesterday (don't ask).

103 euros a month? for 56k? for only 63 guarenteed hours?
For 107 euro a month i get 168 hours at almost 10 times the speed of that deal.

To address your immediate point in summary form (because I don't think it would do any good debating the merits of initial prices of a service - the larger companies are not taking any risks and are standing by in the initial months as the "trial" period goes on)

1. 128 Kbps, not 56.
2. 63 garanteed hours /non contention/ (contention ratio 1:1, geddit?)
3. contention ratio of 1:4 (the contention ratio in the UK for ADSL is 1:50)
4. Static IP

Innovative? I think so. Flat-rate as we know it? Not a bit. If you want flat-rate as we know it you pay €29.17/month for off-peak access. And before you pan this figure as well, please read , carefully, to see how what is being marketed in the UK is unsustainable at best and plain false advertising at worst. The services offered in the initial rollout of flat rate in Italy are both sustainable and transparent.

Can we leave it at that? It's going to be a stale discussion otherwise.

Lets get down to the crux of your point:

If telco's were to pull the finger out and start rolling out a bit more, the heightened availability and lower pricing would mean more and more people would have the oppurtunity of moving to broadband. If that were the case, what becomes the selling point of dialup? Telcos would find thier larger dialup customers gone, and would need something else to make it attractive. A FRIACO situation would take care of itself surely.

In fact there is a country in the EU that has done exactly as you describe: Belgium. I was talking to David Taylor of Esat at the ISC meeting, who was just back from the public drubbing of telcos that was the LLU summit in Brussels. Funnily enough, Belgium came out of the whole thing smelling of roses. They have the second lowest-cost ADSL in the EU (€29/month 1Mb uncapped) and no flat rate. Guess what? We're battling it out with them at the lower end of the intenet penetration scale by April 2002 figures, both of us struggling to hit the mid thirty percent. Meanwhile the Netherlands (low-cost ADSL + friaco) are up to 60% and the UK (medium-cost ADSL + friaco) is at 50%.

Your serve, Dustaz.