Out on Penos

Giblet · 16-06-2002 2:09pm #1

Disgraceful that it should have ended like that, Ireland outplayed Spain near the end.

Slaanesh · 16-06-2002 2:22pm

robbed, ****ing robbed I tell you absolutely totally and ****ing robbed, total ****e **** sake what the **** were they doing ? 3 misses in a row, useless ****s. On a lighter note, they played quite well up until the penos.

mike65 · 16-06-2002 2:31pm

I started the game thinking Spain would, should win because
of superior talent but by the end I was hoping Ireland would
win well and show team means more than talented
individuals.

Spains midfield went missing, thier manager was an idiot and Ireland deserved better, as for the penalties I would'nt be too hard on those who missed, they were there you were'nt.

Mike.

Celt · 16-06-2002 2:35pm

4 missed out of 7 total.

Pathetic.

The_Scary_Man · 16-06-2002 2:37pm

OK I know I'm pissed but here goes

Harte was SH1T!!!

Kilbane was SH1T!!! (OK he did well in xtra time)

McCarthy must GO!!! Taking Kelly off! WTF!!

The world and his dog knows that Harte and Kilbane were the weak links in our team today, the spanish didn't even bother trying to go down our right wing FFS!

Now I know it takes balls to take penalties in a WC game but surely that 5 weren't the ones who had practised penos in the build up?

WE WERE ROBBED, ROBBED.

McCarthy MUST GO, the stubborn C()NT!!

Pigman · 16-06-2002 2:39pm

Never mind. All the great teams lose peno shootouts. France 82 and again 96. Brazil in 86. Italy in 1990. Ireland 2002!

This team is our greatest ever and I'm proud of every player in that squad. I'm going down the bookies now to put a hefty wager on us winning Euro 2004 in Portugal. I love this team and I'll never forget their efforts in this tournament!

BKtje · 16-06-2002 2:39pm

a fs lads take it wasy on em eh.

They got to the bloody last 16 in the world and deserved to beat Spain.
They played their all and lost on out penos. Sure they missed a few but how HARD did they work to get that far.

Give em a break and perhaps give them the respect they deserve for getting this far and being the better team than spain.

BKtje · 16-06-2002 2:43pm

Scary man take it easy like.
yes we know Kilbane+Harte were our weak points.
I dont know who they woulda replaced Harte with that wouda been much better.

imo kilbane shoulda come off at the end and mcateer on but we aint the managers and Mick did what he thought was the best.
Nearly worked as well ffs.

Mick + the team knocked out Holland, Cameroon,
was on par with spain and portugal.
Beat Iran over two legs.

Undefeated in the world cup is something to be very proud of!

deco · 16-06-2002 2:47pm

Harte deserves nothing other than a knee-capping!!!

But Duff should be made Jesus for his wonderful performance!!!

And we have another great Donegal man in Shay Given.....

Keep on rocking!

CivilServant · 16-06-2002 2:49pm

I have to agree with the Scary Man

Harte was $hit!!

Kilbane was super $hit

but for me letting Connolly take that important second penalty when we absolutely had to score to even stand a chance. Well that was beyond $hit

Mick should of taken the lads to one side and said who was going to take the penos. Connolly wanted to make a name for himself. but you just knew he wasn't going to score. I feel sorry for Holland, he was unlucky and on another day would of scored.

Kilbane missed when the spanish goalie dropped the ball, he missed the rebound on the 2nd peno and he missed the f*&%ing penalty as well. Don't let him near an Irish Jersey again!! Plus he can only run in straight lines

Megatron · 16-06-2002 2:52pm

Originally posted by Pigman
Never mind. All the great teams lose peno shootouts. France 82 and again 96. Brazil in 86. Italy in 1990. Ireland 2002!

This team is our greatest ever and I'm proud of every player in that squad.

i agree 100% yes some players did do too good for the entire game , yes we should of won but that's the roll of the ball for you.
as for if mccarty should go... no he has proven what a great manager he has become... yes he started badly and i was very load in my protests but he has done a fantastic job and every single one of us who were support our boys in green should be very proud and give them our support for as long as they need it.

well i'm off for a pint now.....

later skaters

Sand · 16-06-2002 2:55pm

Given and Duff were excellent, cunningham and Keane had good games, rest were average, but Kilbane was his typical witless self and Harte was bad as usual (I dont blame him for the penalty miss tbh, these things seem easier when your watching on the TV) but even then he might have got a goal from that freekick if Keane had gotten his silly head down.

Overall the spanish were better than us, their keeper was excellent in the penalty shootout and we cant complain too much.

roar_ie · 16-06-2002 3:00pm

well my voice is gone but thankfully i don't need it here.

As for the match and who played ****e or not, it no longer matters as we lost. The team played well and we should have won but we didn't. Big deal. There is always euro 2004 and world cup 2006 to look forward to, with the likes of reid, healy and o'brien to come through the ranks. Well being that i am in America i am off for some brekkie.

kaimera · 16-06-2002 3:05pm

Overall the spanish were better than us, their keeper was excellent in the penalty shootout and we cant complain too much.

bollix...for the opening while they were better by far...ffs man it's kinda obvious we played them off the field.

Harte should never play again. The peno showed just how down on confidence he was.
Kilbane...Stephen Reid should have come on.
Connolly...should neve have made the squad.

Quinny...STUPERSUB! Great game to end his career...pity about the overall result.

The peno takers...ppffttt...the 2 who missed have obviously never hit one before...

Camacho made some brutal subs...Albelda did FA after coming on for Morientas...

Twas one of those games I wished had never happened...
I have Spain to win the WC with €40 riding on them so twas a confilct of interests today.
Course...had Ireland to win...

Sand · 16-06-2002 3:12pm

bollix...for the opening while they were better by far...ffs man it's kinda obvious we played them off the field.

The spanish stuck the ball in our net 3 times, and we can be happy that the linesman was a bit more observant than has been the norm in the WC. They always looked likely to finish us off, but then they fell into the classic trap of holding what they had and taking off Raul and morientes, their two main frontmen. So its not surprising we looked the more attack minded with 3 strikers on.

Even then we needed a penalty to get the equaliser, despite duffs great work we werent cutting them open at will or anything so were lucky the ref was strong enough to award a penalty against a big name team in the last minute of the game.

We played well at the end when it became clear Spain were holding out for penalties but youd need to have been watching the game through green tinted glasses to say we played them off the field.

mewso · 16-06-2002 3:14pm

Well I'm just drained after all that. It's bizarre to see people calling for so-and-so to be dropped, McCarthy to be fired etc. but all I can say is thats the best World Cup performance I've seen from Ireland. I agree with Mark Lawrenson on this. McCarthy has equaled if surpassed Jack with an inferior squad achieving what they did. Well done lads. Well done you boys in green.
I was close to tears when it ended. Those guys gave their all, THEIR ALL and I won't criticise any of them. To be the better team smacks hard but thats life. Ces't La Vie as the French might say. I'm proud, so proud of this team. I have my problems with Harte, Kilbane etc. but why voice them now. Remember the overall performance and criticise later. So sad, so very very sad.

scuzzy · 16-06-2002 3:15pm

I think Stevie Finnan outshone everyone else on the field. Afaik he didn't make one mistake during the whole match, saved our asses on more than one occasion, and he set up our goal.
I've a feeling there's a very bright future ahead of the lad.

And wtf was Connelly doing on the pitch???:mad:
He did **** all the whole game, and missed a peno as well...

Good game, we deserved to win...

Here's to Germany in four years...;)

The_Scary_Man · 16-06-2002 3:16pm

Of course it matters!

This isn't our last game as a nation!

We have to look to the future, to Euro '04. Do we really want the inept McCarthy in charge for that?

McCarthy made some some brutal decisions this WC.

Loyalty is commendable but ffs everyone knew that Harte was a disaster in the 3 other games he played so what do you do?

You drop him and put someone else in!

Kelly was there as an option so what does mccarthy do? He puts Quinn on for Kelly! maybe i don't know sweet FA about football but I thought Kelly was having a good game.

Duff on the right? Jesus Christ , we have on of the most talented left sided wingers in Europe and what does he do? He puts him in on the right to accomodate (sp?) Kilbane!

McCarthy is a disaster!

And before anyone starts into me for slating the team allow me to say that I love my country and I think this is the most talented Irish team we have ever seen and we could have beaten spain hands down if the game had been managed properly!

The Irish squad were World Class and noone can take that from us but questions must still be asked.

Pigman · 16-06-2002 3:18pm

Originally posted by Sand
he might have got a goal from that freekick if Keane had gotten his silly head down.

Sorry I won't here a bad word against Robbie.

His decision to get his head on Harte's free kick was correct because, as the replay showed, the initial trajectory of the ball was heading straight into the goalkeepers path. Fair play to Keane for spotting it and saving Harte from yet more admonishment.

PiE · 16-06-2002 3:28pm

Who would you prefer instead of McCarthy? Joe f*cking Kinnear? Get a grip.

Quinn & Staunton have announced retirement. If only Harte, Kilbane & Connolly would follow suit!

IMO we need a midfielder capable of playing that crucial final pass. Gee... I can't think of any...

The rest of the team (especially Given, Finnan, Keane & Duff) should be give the Freedom of Ireland (if there is such a thing).

Pigman · 16-06-2002 3:33pm

Originally posted by The_Scary_Man
Of course it matters!

This isn't our last game as a nation!

We have to look to the future, to Euro '04. Do we really want the inept McCarthy in charge for that?

McCarthy made some some brutal decisions this WC.

Loyalty is commendable but ffs everyone knew that Harte was a disaster in the 3 other games he played so what do you do?

You drop him and put someone else in!

Kelly was there as an option so what does mccarthy do? He puts Quinn on for Kelly! maybe i don't know sweet FA about football but I thought Kelly was having a good game.

Duff on the right? Jesus Christ , we have on of the most talented left sided wingers in Europe and what does he do? He puts him in on the right to accomodate (sp?) Kilbane!

McCarthy is a disaster!

The Irish squad were World Class and noone can take that from us but questions must still be asked.

It was the correct decision for my at any rate. Puyol was having a blinder at right back and Duff was inneffective as a forward. He could have followed his usual trick of putting Duff on the left but I feel it wouldn't have worked out. I agree that Kelly wasn't doing to badly but he wasn't getting the most out of the left back who I felt was the weak link in their defence.

McCarthy new that Quinn was coming on so he pushed Duff onto right the wing well away Puyol cos he new he'd have a better chance there. It was proved correct in my opinion.

I've never been a fan of McCarthy but he has definetly proven that he is a good tactical manager when the match isn't going well. It's just a pity that he had trouble picking the right starting 11!

Yerac · 16-06-2002 3:49pm

I'd just like to say that we played excellently today, it looked like we were going to go out to a cheap goal and in the end probably should have won with a golden goal.
I think anyone criticising any individuals is way out of line and is just looking for a scape-goat.
The idea that Mick McCarthy should go are also disgraceful, in all 4 of Ireland's games he made the changes that mattered, he has proved himself at the highest level, and I honestly think the FAI may have trouble holding onto him now.
I'd also just like to say that I was as critical as anyone else of Ian Harte in previous games, but thought he really got his act together in this game and, ok despite missing the pen, he didn't do a whole lot wrong. Defended much stronger and passed much more accurately.
Also sad to see the end of Stan in an Irish shirt.

The_Scary_Man · 16-06-2002 5:37pm

Originally posted by Pigman

Puyol was having a blinder at right back and Duff was inneffective as a forward.

The only reason Puyol was having a blinder at right back was because there were ineffectual wingers coming at him. If you had been watching the previous Spain games in the tournament you wolud have seen how poor Puyol had been.

I agree that Kelly wasn't doing to badly but he wasn't getting the most out of the left back who I felt was the weak link in their defence.

In my view Kelly was doing fairly well and no-one could convince me that he was doing worse than Kilbane, plus the fact that by taking off Kelly instead of Kilbane McCarthy took away the option of Kelly going left back.

Add to this the fact that he put (I know I'm repeating ,myself but the point bears repeating) one of the best left backs in Europe on the right side, while leaving Kilbane on beggars belief.

Who would you prefer instead of McCarthy? Joe f*cking Kinnear? Get a grip.

I don't know what era you are living in but when did McCarthy become an inspired manager?
McCarthy is a First division manager seriously out of his depth. I will agree his motivational skills seem to be of a high standard but tactically the man is completely lost and at this level just some of the skills won't cut it.

BTW who says we should go for Kinnear? (Even though I think he would be a better option than McCarthy) Why not go for a foriegn manager?

Personally I don't see an Irish manager out there who can bring this obviously talented team to the heights they deserve, but then again maybe we should go with what we know best, just plodding along to have a laugh.

I know the team don't think this way having listened to and read interviews over the last few weeks so why should the fans?

PiE · 16-06-2002 6:17pm

I honestly can't imagine any top foreign manager being willing to take on the Irish job. The FAI couldnt afford any anyway.

Lets give Cappello a ring (ohhhh if only).

Dustaz · 16-06-2002 8:03pm

Originally posted by The_Scary_Man

The only reason Puyol was having a blinder at right back was because there were ineffectual wingers coming at him. If you had been watching the previous Spain games in the tournament you wolud have seen how poor Puyol had been.

These would be the games that spain won comfortably by scoring 3 goals in then? (they had a second string side Vs SA and still never really looked like losing)

I don't know what era you are living in but when did McCarthy become an inspired manager?
McCarthy is a First division manager seriously out of his depth. I will agree his motivational skills seem to be of a high standard but tactically the man is completely lost and at this level just some of the skills won't cut it.

This is just absolute rubbish. McCarthy took Ireland to the world cup finals out of a group with portugal and holland in it. We didnt lose to them and beat holland. We reached the last 16 of the world cup and went out without losing a game despite being in a group with the african champions and germany. We only went out on peno's against a very highly fancied spanish side.

This is a manager out of his depth?

Personally I don't see an Irish manager out there who can bring this obviously talented team to the heights they deserve, but then again maybe we should go with what we know best, just plodding along to have a laugh.

I know the team don't think this way having listened to and read interviews over the last few weeks so why should the fans?

Youve been listening to too much Keane and Dunphy. I dont think a team that fight as hard as Ireland have to get some of those results are 'in it for the laugh'. Look at the reaction of those that missed the pens. Look at stauntons post match interview. Look at the facts.

WhiteWashMan · 16-06-2002 8:06pm

Originally posted by The_Scary_Man

The only reason Puyol was having a blinder at right back was because there were ineffectual wingers coming at him. If you had been watching the previous Spain games in the tournament you wolud have seen how poor Puyol had been.

In my view Kelly was doing fairly well and no-one could convince me that he was doing worse than Kilbane, plus the fact that by taking off Kelly instead of Kilbane McCarthy took away the option of Kelly going left back.

Add to this the fact that he put (I know I'm repeating ,myself but the point bears repeating) one of the best left backs in Europe on the right side, while leaving Kilbane on beggars belief.

I don't know what era you are living in but when did McCarthy become an inspired manager?
McCarthy is a First division manager seriously out of his depth. I will agree his motivational skills seem to be of a high standard but tactically the man is completely lost and at this level just some of the skills won't cut it.

BTW who says we should go for Kinnear? (Even though I think he would be a better option than McCarthy) Why not go for a foriegn manager?

Personally I don't see an Irish manager out there who can bring this obviously talented team to the heights they deserve, but then again maybe we should go with what we know best, just plodding along to have a laugh.

I know the team don't think this way having listened to and read interviews over the last few weeks so why should the fans?

sorry, i seem to have missed your contribution to irelands world cup.
what position did you say you were playing?

NeRb666 · 16-06-2002 8:11pm

I don't know why he brought on Connolly...I think Morrison is a far better player. Stephen Reid could have been good too, but it's over and done with now, let's move on...

Dustaz · 16-06-2002 8:17pm

God, what a match. I dont think ive ever seen such a good defensive performance from an irish side in quite a while. After the goal went in(which is hard to blame on anyone), they played like men possesed. Unlike most here, i thought Harte didnt have a disaster of a game and before the penalty miss had been adequate (Ironically he played the ball out of defense, rather than hoofed it to kilbane, who played a bloody great ball to keane to set up on our best chances) Kilbane also was adequate defensivly but as usual was found wanting going forward. Every other man on the pitch was a star (well, connolly wasnt great, but hey, he was thisclose to winning it for us )

I feel for harte, hes been solid as the set piece taker for the last few years since dinny retired, but that penalty was awful. Kilbanes miss was worse however. im suprised he volunteered for the later peno's after being so badly off target in front of an open goal. Fair play to that ref for awarding the second peno, its not often you see penalties for holding in the box, altho that was a pretty extreme example.

I have to agree with sand. The biggest (and probably only) problem with the performance was that we created almost no clear cut chances. Apart from duff, noone was creative in the final third. When you add to this the fact theres no natural goal scorer in the squad (i still dont think keane is the finished article in this regard), matches like this can happen. We had all the possesion, and all the heart, but we just couldnt put the ball in the net.

Having said all that, i think the team played out of thier skins and can be justly proud to have been probably one of the best 'teams' in the world cup. Ive never been so gutted after an Ireland match before, and i dont think i ever will be.

Well done boys.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 16-06-2002 8:36pm

I think Spain were the better team. Everyones judgement seems to be clouded by their pride in Ireland.

We didn't create any true goalscoring chances. I mean I never thought to myself "FOR FCUK SAKE HOW DID THAT STUPID FCUKING FCUKER MISS THAT????". Well once I suppose when Kilbane missed the rebound from the penalty which was a dive.

I think anyone criticising any individuals is way out of line and is just looking for a scape-goat.

Sorry just have to add this next bit in!

Kilbane has been terrible this tournament and we have so many other alternatives. He seriously did not do one productive thing all tournament. However I think he still managed to start every game even though Morrison didn't even make a singe appearance. McCarthy's probably too loyal to him and certain other players.

I still think he's a great manager. This tournament may teach him how his loyalty has cost him. I think we're in with a great chance for Euro 2004 and I hope McCarthy's still around.

Winning Hand · 16-06-2002 8:39pm

As dustaz said, I feel sorry for harte, its been a bad world cup for him and the peno was a culmination of his misfortune. As for kilbane, Im sorry but his miss was pathetic, open goal and hoofs it wide.
Duff was magical, each time he got the ball he made the defenders look like pub teams, keane played a blinder, much more constructive than his usual self (i.e he played a better team game)

Biggest question mark has to go to Mick for playing Connolly, talk about a bad time to play the loyalty card, reid would of brought better routes of attack to the extra time period when the spanish were reeling. Its easy to blame given for the last peno but after the blinder he played getting us this far you wont hear a bad word from me over it

PiE · 16-06-2002 9:05pm

Yea, I said that meself. We very rarely EVER have clear cut chances for the strikers, which is what seperates us from the world class teams. We need someone who can play a cutting pass on the ground, rather than over the top of the defence.

And anyone would have been a better option than Connolly... Morrisson, Reid... either would have given us fresh legs with pace and had the naivety to have a run at the Spanish defence in the 118th min :]

The_Bullman · 16-06-2002 9:06pm

at the end of the game the only player that i thought shouldn't have been there was david connelly. Maybe its just that every time i see him play he sucks. I think that george hamilton made a comment of tired legs, towards the end of the game, when one of the irish players touch let him down. fair enough except that it was connelly who tried to play it. he was only playing for 30 mins at most at this stage.

i would have brought on clinton instead of him. just my opinion.

The_Scary_Man · 16-06-2002 9:59pm

These would be the games that spain won comfortably by scoring 3 goals in then? (they had a second string side Vs SA and still never really looked like losing)

Just because they won doesn't mean everyone played well.

This is just absolute rubbish. McCarthy took Ireland to the world cup finals out of a group with portugal and holland in it. We didnt lose to them and beat holland. We reached the last 16 of the world cup and went out without losing a game despite being in a group with the african champions and germany. We only went out on peno's against a very highly fancied spanish side.

When are people going to realise that McCarthy didn't sprinkle some kind of fairy dust on some toads and come up with a great team. The fact is that Ireland now have an amazing crop of players all plying their trade in probably the second best league in Europe possibly the world, after Spain.
The fact that we did well in the group with Portugal and Holland is more down to a shift in power in European football than any superhuman effort on the Irish players part.
Now before people start to jump down my throat I am not saying that he didn't do a good job, he did to a point.
What I am saying is he has taken this team as far as he can and the reins need to be handed over to someone who has knowledge and experience to bring this team the glory they deserve.
I mean look at the team we have and try to forget the preconception of Ireland as a second class footballing nation;

Given - The best 'keeper in the premiership last season.
Finnan - The best right back in the prem last season.
Breen - Suspect at times but I take my hat of to the man he pulled out all the stops in this WC and played like I've never seen him play before.
Staunton - The man doesn't know when to stop, a class act all round.
Harte - Had a brutal WC but still an asset to any squad when on form.
Duff - One of the most exciting prospects in European football.
Keane Roy - One of the best midfielders in the world.
Holland - A classy player who gives 110% all the time and in my view is wasted at Ipswich.
McAteer - A tireless worker who always seems to come up with the goods when the chips are down.
Keane - An excellent striker who could play in any league in the world and give people value for money.
Quinn - Respected by professionals for his commitment and effort in every game.

Now tell me why it was such a phenomenal feat to qualify from that group. Come on people what about a little belief in this team!

I dont think a team that fight as hard as Ireland have to get some of those results are 'in it for the laugh'.

Originally posted by The_Scary_Man

Personally I don't see an Irish manager out there who can bring this obviously talented team to the heights they deserve, but then again maybe we should go with what we know best, just plodding along to have a laugh. I know the team don't think this way having listened to and read interviews over the last few weeks so why should the fans?

sorry, i seem to have missed your contribution to irelands world cup. what position did you say you were playing?

?

If you don't agree with what I'm saying then convince me I'm wrong, at least Dustaz is arguing the points.

Dustaz · 16-06-2002 10:37pm

Originally posted by The_Scary_Man

When are people going to realise that McCarthy didn't sprinkle some kind of fairy dust on some toads and come up with a great team. The fact is that Ireland now have an amazing crop of players all plying their trade in probably the second best league in Europe possibly the world, after Spain.

Now your the one smoking fairy dust. This squad is not amazingly talented. We have 2 or maybe 3 world class players. Roy Keane, Shay Given and possibly Steven Carr. Breen, McAteer, Kilbane, Harte, Kelly, Rob Keane, Cunningham are all fairly average players in fairly average clubs. This is not an amazing crop of players. Duff is enourmously promising, but i feel the best is yet to come from him. Finnan is also very very good, no arguments there, however:

Keane - An excellent striker who could play in any league in the world and give people value for money.

Quite simply, no. He proved that he didnt fit the bill in Inter (ok, there was coaching difficulties, but i think he would have left anyway) and he cannot nail down a first team place at leeds. Hes still young, but at the moment he needs too many chances and takes too long on the ball.

The fact that we did well in the group with Portugal and Holland is more down to a shift in power in European football than any superhuman effort on the Irish players part.......
Now tell me why it was such a phenomenal feat to qualify from that group.

What shift in power? Holland are still imo one of the best teams in the world. Kluivert, Van Tappsinanddives, Hasslebaink, Overmars, Cocu. They all play in the leagues you mentioned as the top leagues and are all much bigger names than most of our squad, yet we beat them. With our squad it was a phenomenal feat, albeit a deserved one. As was our performances in the WC.

What I am saying is he has taken this team as far as he can and the reins need to be handed over to someone who has knowledge and experience to bring this team the glory they deserve.

I remember thinking the exact same thing after the qualifiers for euro 2000. Whatever you say about him, McCarthy learned from his mistakes and you cannot underestimate his achievement since. If only we had a raul or an owen, sigh.

mewso · 17-06-2002 12:24am

I sigh again at mention of Roy Keane, the king of the sideways pass, being World Class. Get a grip. Start adjusting to the fact that hes as good as retired from International football now anyway.

The_Scary_Man · 17-06-2002 11:07am

We have 2 or maybe 3 world class players. Roy Keane, Shay Given and possibly Steven Carr

I would agree with you on those three but I would have to add Duff and possibly Finnan. I know they are a little rough around the edges but I think they are top class players.
I never said that the whole team were world class but then how many teams can say they have more than 5 or 6 world class players?

Quite simply, no. He proved that he didnt fit the bill in Inter (ok, there was coaching difficulties, but i think he would have left anyway) and he cannot nail down a first team place at leeds. Hes still young, but at the moment he needs too many chances and takes too long on the ball.

Three goals in 4 games in a WC is no mean feat. I don't think he is playing his best at Leeds because of the fact that he is a confidence player, David O' Leary even said last night that he is the type of player who rises to the big occasion and he showed that through the tournament. Also the fact that he couldn't get his game at Inter or Leeds still does nothing to refute my statement that he could play in any league in the world and give value for money. I also would like to see him being more clinical and I think that will come more readily if he goes to a club where he is playing regular football.

What shift in power? Holland are still imo one of the best teams in the world. Kluivert, Van Tappsinanddives, Hasslebaink, Overmars, Cocu. They all play in the leagues you mentioned as the top leagues and are all much bigger names than most of our squad, yet we beat them. With our squad it was a phenomenal feat, albeit a deserved one. As was our performances in the WC.

Ok they have excellent players but this comes down to how they operate as a team and in my view that is where they fall down.

Whatever you say about him, McCarthy learned from his mistakes and you cannot underestimate his achievement since.

Has he though? You can't tell me that Harte deserved to start yesterday based on the performances he put in in the previous games, and at the end of the day in footballing terms that is what he should be judged on.
It may seem strange but one of McCarthy's best attributes is also his greatest weakness - his loyalty. Sometimes it seems as though he blindly picks the team based on who are his favourites, you just can't do that and hope to do well in major tournaments. He stubbornly insisted in playing Duff up front when it became more and more obvious as the tourny went on that he was doing infinitely more damage on the left wing, even tending to drift out there most of the time when he was playing up front in an effort to give himself a chance to do what he excels at - taking on players and beating them.

If only we had a raul or an owen, sigh.

If only mate, if only.

seamus · 17-06-2002 11:11am

Yeah our best team ever was still Italia '90, but I reckon this team has plenty of potential. Most of the players are younger lads, with around 10 years left in them, which covers 2 more World Cups, unlike 1990, where many of our best players were older - Houghton, Townsend, Stapleton, Aldridge, Cascarino, etc. This team, for the most part, still has to hit its peak, so I think getting into the second round, and barely being knocked out, gives us an indicator of great potential. That said, there'll be some big shoes to fill now that Quinn and Staunton have retired, and Roy Keane who'll probably be gone by 2006.

Sposs · 17-06-2002 12:02pm

"Brillant in Defeat" thats a phrase that's used to describe most irish sporting achievements,the reason we lost to Spain was because we just werent good enough.

Now before everyone starts jumping down my throat,yes we did totally outplay them,but hence theres a big difference between total outplaying someone and beating them,we usually fail to do the lather.So Everyone should stop moaning about the defeat at the end of the Day we were given seven Penalaties (sp?) and we missed four,so we have only ourselves to Blame

I think the best think about this world cup has been the re-emerging of Robbie Keane,the way he stood tall to take that penalty in the 90 mintue is the stuff of legends,lets no forget he's still only 21,he will easily go on and destroy the irish goalscoring record.

Dustaz · 17-06-2002 6:16pm

Originally posted by The_Scary_Man
You can't tell me that Harte deserved to start yesterday based on the performances he put in in the previous games, and at the end of the day in footballing terms that is what he should be judged on.......
........ He stubbornly insisted in playing Duff up front when it became more and more obvious as the tourny went on that he was doing infinitely more damage on the left wing

heres one of the big problems with the arguments of the McCarthy naysayers. The contradictions. Its ok to play one person out of position (whoever would replace harte) but not to play duff out of position.
Also how do you know that harte wasnt great in training? for me harte played quite well in the spanish match (apart from missing the penalty) and the fact he didnt come out to the man crossing the ball for the goal looks more like a training ground excercise gone wrong (might i add that if he did, he would not have got to the player in time and morientes has a much bigger target to hit)

I kinda sorta agree about duff tho, Id like to see him playing on the wing from the start. Mind you, id rather him up front than Ireland play with 1 up front. We all know where that leads too (Davor Suker remembers).
Morrison must have been awful in training for connolly to get ahead of him:/

Out on Penos

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