Are PDAs any good?

phobos

K,

I've got some money to burn, and I'm interested in doing a wireless project for my FY degree in CS. But what I want to know is what can I do with a PDA, E.g. Compaq Ipaq. Is it simply for doing word documents and the likes, or how do I install software on them etc.

Can I load any OS on them, E.g. Linux or Win CE. Is there any comparison between it and a notebook.

Are they really worth the money, and would I find one useful (on the move)?

feedback appreciated!

;-phobos-)

Enygma

I got the Palm M100 from work a few months back. It's a nice little toy but I rarely use it. I've been thinking about writing a few Java apps for it but haven't got around to it yet.
Not sure about loading any OS on it. Doubtful. Installing software is a cinch, you use a Desktop synch application to install.
It's good for holding phone numbers addressses etc. (which is great when you're mobile runs out of juice).
If you're gonna be doing your FY Project on one I definetely recommend you get one with as much RAM as possible.
Get one that's slim too. My M100 isn't too bad but as soon as you put it into the wallet it's simply too big to carry around in your pocket. The m500/505 on the other hand...
Oh if you've go IR on your phone you can set it up to access the Web too, which is nice (I presume you can get non-wireless kits for this too).

Matt Simis

Hi,

Im going to be selling my Casio Cassiopeia E100 on the forsale board later. I use it mainly for MP3 playback, but the Dictaphone part is really handy, and it can create and read normal MS Word and Excel files. It runs on WinCE 2.11. I belive some people have used Linux on them before too.

The difference between this and a Palm (type) PDA is that the WinCE palmtops are usually more geared towards general mobile use (Palms are a bit more specialized), multimedia and large memory capacity. I have 8MB and 20MB CompactFlash memory cards and a 340MB IBM Microdrive, which all work perfectly. The Microdrive holds something massive like 10hrs music!

The screen on mine is a 16BIT TFT screen, which displays photos and the Internet very good. I use my Nokia 7110 to access the Web wirelessly too, which again it quite handy.

I will be bundling the 8MB and 20MB cards, with the option of the 340MB Microdrive and the USB Reader.


Matt

phobos

Yeah I could have guessed that I would need plenty of RAM alright. But when they mention ROM are they talking about Non-Voltile semiconductor storage, coz if they are then that would be expensive and come in small capacities compared to a HD.

I was looking @ the Compaq Ipaq I think it is. Anyway it's a palm top with what appears to be CE, and it has 32MB RAM and 16MB ROM. Does that mean I can only store 16MB of data on it, coz that's crap. Now I know things like VMs targetted @ wireless devices are going to be small in size but when developing things for a MS platform, they are bound to be larger in size. Maybe I'm wrong about all this.

Anyway I was quoted IR£500 (approx) for that, which I think is a tad expensive, but then again how much should I expect to pay for one of these things. Someone apart from Matt answer this one (no offense Matt, but you're selling one). Anyway I like the look of the Compaq unit, very futuristique, but only has a 12-but display (and if my maths is correct that's only 4096 colours). Which would not be able to display true colour bitmaps etc.

TA & TIA,

;-phobos-)

Tom Dunne

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by phobos:
a wireless project for my FY degree in CS. But what I want to know is what can I do with a PDA </font>

One of the lads I work with did a project with a Palm Pilot that hooked it up to a GPS unit. The Palm Pilot displayed a map on the screen showing him where he was. It was only a map of the DCU campus, but it worked brilliantly.

I have a Palm 1000, and as far as I know, you can't load any other operating system onto it. You can, however, attach gadgets such as the GPS unit to the serial port, but nothing that needs higher bandwith (e.g. web cams). There is, afaik, plenty of development tools available for the palm pilot also.

Have fun,

TD.

phobos

Yeah that GPS system sounds kewl , but its been done and nearly everyone knows about it. What I intend to do is take advantage of the wireless world with something new. But of course I don't know what that is yet, lol

But the project is irellavent @ this point. All I need to know is, what are the hardware/software platform limits, and from that I will be able to decide how the client software will interact with the remote system.

I though Palm pilots had Mono displays, but I'm probably thinking of something else. I like the idea of the Compaq coz it comes with IE pre-installed. That must mean that I can send an receive normal web documents via HTTP. But then again the applets I write would have to be trimmed to run on the J2ME VM. Actually I don't think they are called applets for that platform (me trying to remember what they are called )

The unit I want must have a colour display capeable of at least 8-bit colour.

Any more options. Can anyone tell me how much I should pay for these things and where in Ireland I can get them handy.

TA,

;-phobos-)

phaxx

Well, before I had a palmtop, I would have said I didn't need one at all, but when I was given an old one and had it for a few months, I found out how incredibly useful they are. Even though mine is little more than a portable BRICK, it's very useful indeed.

It's a Cassiopeia A-11, 6 megs of ram, one aul pcmcia slot, and a whole black, white and two shades of grey for a screen.
Weighs a bloody ton, not to mention a suspicious bulge in my pants.

Still, after using it for ages, when I feel it's too old/heavy I'll probably buy another - I'd never have bought one in the first place, this one was a present.

Red Moose

The IPaq linux installation is going very nicely. There is also a version of Quake for the IPaq.

BUT, and this is important: there is goign to be a slew of new PDAs soon. The IPaq is teh fastest at the moment for games (there is a SNES emulator available), but the joypad can only accept a single instruction at a time, so it's useless for games. Here the Casio leads.

If you need basica scheduling and address book and planner type things, a Handspring Visor is sweet, for around £200, cheaper on import. Palm are about to release the m125 to replace the serial-cable-bound m100/105 models, which will be similarly priced and bring all of the Palm range to USB, MMC/SD cards.

But again it's a big price and ability change. Add a Microdrive of 1GB+ to an IPAq using the PCMCIA slider and you have loads of MP3s, even Windows Media movies (e.g., episode of Star Trek Voyager can be compressed to around 45MB, at 15fps).

But, you'll be lucky to get 5 hours, maybe 8 if you are clever, on a WinCE PDA, especially the iPaq. Compare this to the weeks of time you get off a pair of AA batterys for the Palm OS ones.

Within 6 months there will be dedicated Linux and AmigaOS (yes I am not kidding) PDAs. There is a linux one out right now, but it is not too great.

The prices are pretty high - the iPaq is a great machine to impress people with. Full colour, doing the MP3s, movies, heck, QUAKE, for christ's sake. But after a few hours you need a recharge.

Lose all the flash and you get a machine that costs around 1/3 the price or less (adding the things like GPS costs around $300, plus another $100 for a dual PCMCIA adaptor (not much having GPS if you have no where yto store the data, eh?). The cheap Handspring's are the best on the market at the moment if you get past the flash and cool of the WInCE models.

The m100/105 Palm have crap small screens - hopefully the m125 will help this matter. It will also have Palm OS 4.0, like the £450 m500 series. My advice would be to wait for the m125, or get a Visor if you can't wait.

The WinCE models will need another generation to improve. The OS is still very clunky and awkward compared the PalmOS in the Visor and Palm models.

I'm still waiting for the Amiga one.

phobos

K,

I have been giving this some thought and reading several reviews for the Ipaq 3630 unit. I like what they are saying, but I feel that every review is targetted @ ppl that have first hand experience with PDAs (which I don't @ all).

The biggest question I have regards it's software flexibility. I mean can I download something off the web a send it to my PDA and run it. I think not!. Should it be really given the name Pocket PC?. I hope to christ PDAs are not just Personal Orgainisers with colour screens and more features, coz that would really **** me off. Right all negatives aside.

Can anyone put this straight for me. Like what are you guys using your PDAs for?. I hear you can run Quake on the IPaq 3630, but that must be a version for WinCE (??). I hear that the IPaq comes with all the MS Office programs in pocket format. That sounds kewl enough, but I would probably only use Word. Can I add programs to it like Notepad, or some other kind of MP3 player etc?

TIA

;-phobos-)

Hobbes

I have a palm VI, it's fantastic. I can read newspapers while sitting on the train/bus, check my email even read boards.ie (though not great as a web browser).

It knows the general area I'm in and can give me traffic reports, weather, resturants in the nearby area. Also has mapquest, stocks, and other bits and pieces.

There is supposed to be a new one coming out which is like the small sleek palms, no antenna and extra features (can be customized to connect to corporate VPN afaik).

phobos

What I really need it for is a platform to develop software on. Right now, reading reviews on the web for the IPaq Pocket PC all over the place. I just found out that there are Pocket versions of C++ & VB compilers available for the platform. JDKs and I'm there!

;-phobos-)

phobos

K,

I went in to town today to play around with that Compaq Ipaq PDA. I was using the H3630 model which comes with 32MB RAM, 16MB ROM and all the other trimmings. I have to admit WinCE 3.0 (Pocket PC) is nice and solid OS, and MS have it sorted for once on the portables. Overall I was impressed with unit and the sales guy in Compustore knew what he was on about (until I went asking questions like: "Does it come with a VM preinstalled etc"). The Media Player reminds me of a Quicktime player, but sounds great when playing MP3s.

But here's my question. The starting price for this thing is £500 (H3630) and the model above that is basically the same with 64MB RAM (for £650). The sole purpose of this device (in my hands) is to act as a platform for my own software, organise my tasks better, and overall make me look kewl, which in turn will attract women (I've got it all sorted, LOL )

I don't want to get the 64MB model unless I really need it, to test my software (which will most likely be a combination of VB/C++/Java based apps). So will the 32MB model do?

;-phobos-)

Red Moose

That is utter rip-off for an extra 32MB of RAM.

The 32MB model comes with no expansion capability - the sleeve (the black thing) has no Compact Flash slot or anything.

If you want to store info, you would be better to get the PCMCIA sleeve (there are also dual PCMCIA sleeves available) to attach a Microdrive.

CF memory can be added to a iPaq with the CF sleeve, in up to 256MB units, but the big ones are damn expensive.

Now, by "test" software, you do know that PocketPC OS, or Windows CE 3.0 (it was renamed for marketing purposes) is NOT the Win32 API, you would need an SDK for CE....but you are a CS student so you prob know this. You can't just bring over apps and expect them to run.

As for installing software, it's all HotSync type stuff over USB. Transferring lots of data (basically MP3s or movies to a Microdrive) can take a little while though.

There is plenty to bi tch about regard the iPaq. Early models had bad screens; the expansion system is crap (it really should have some CF or PCMCIA slot as standard).

You also get aweful battery limits - you can do mods to add power but still, playing Mp3s, even with the screen off, will kill the battery in around 3-4 hours.

Also, don't be sold on the screen - I know in Compustore that they turn up the brightness and use the very powerful backlight. Great and all as it looks, it will melt the battery again very quickly, believe me.

I will say the CE character recognition is easier to use and more intuitive for a beginner compared to Palm's Grafitti.

You say you have money to burn? I would recommend the HP Jornada 720 - the mini-keyboard one, with the longitudinal screen. It has better power management, and has loads of ports and slots (e.g., PCMCIA) as standard, which add to battery wasting and extra money cost in iPaq land.

One of the coolest things though is Nokias PCMCIA cellular kit. Plug in the card, and you have a phone and modem in the PCMCIA slot, and can use the iPaq screen as a phone (okay, no video, but very sweet looking).

basically all the cool toys like GPS systems, GSM transceivers and big 1GB of storage all need the PCMCIA slot, which adds considerable bulk and weight and cost and battery wasting to the iPaq.

Check out the bulletin boards on this site for loads of info (and tips of the problems people who buy iPaqs and whatever type of PDA you own) on specific models.

http://www.brighthand.com

phobos

Right,

I would expect that software written for 32bit windows would not run on a PDA, because how often would you see on the side of a box: Compatable with Win2k/98/95/CE (I never have).

That aside, I didn't like the HP Jornada unit. The screen seemed better indoors but, the Ipaq is the only unit that is comfortably visible in daylight. I can't even see my laptop screen in daylight, so I know how much that can **** ppl off. The Jornada was £450 and only came with 16MB RAM.

One thing to note about me. When I buy computer equipment I rarely upgrade it, when it gets slow I toss it in to the wardrobe and get a new one. That's the way I am, so when I buy something I want the thing I'm paying for to be kewl. I don't buy stuff because I can connect this or that to it, I usually don't care about expansions.

I can install Linux on the Ipaq, and also the kind of software I am developing uses core Java2 stuff, and I can even get handy.

Overall I think I will go with the Ipaq, because everywhere I look on the net it's like 90% of reviews are giving it full marks and saying things like "best thing since sliced bread". I have already been to http://www.brighthand.com and their review backs me up there. Also there is a Compaq facility here in Galway, so requesting info is not going to be a problem. I don't actually own any other kind of Compaq equipment, but I have dealt with their tech-support, which I have found very helpful.

Thanks for the feedback neverthess, it is, as always, appreciated!.

;-phobos-)

MiCr0

hobbes
which web browser do u use?

Hobbes

Well most of the applications on the plam use web applet thingys. Don't have the palm in with me, so I'll check later.

Btw, if your buying a PDA to develop on, your nuts if you going to be coding directly on the PDA. You would be much better off getting an emulator on your PC then just upload the finished app when you need to test it.

PDA's are a personal thing. What one person would like in a PDA is not what someone else would want.

Personally I don't like CE because all they are trying to do is force windows onto a tiny screen. Color is nice but if all your using it is for reading why burn so much battery power for candy floss?

I have used the Casio PDA and it does look nice but I found it clunky and annoying compared to using the Palm. But that's just me.

phobos

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Btw, if your buying a PDA to develop on, your nuts if you going to be coding directly on the PDA
</font>

I totally agree Hobbes, but I think you misunderstood me. You can download (what appears to me to be) a Visual Studio add on, batch of SDKs that enables development for the CE platform. The SDKs involve a 340MB download so I would expect it to be pretty decent. Also the funny thing is, is that it's free (Billy must be out sick or something ) . Who would be writing software on their PDA anyway?. I do know there are "Pocket" compilers out there, that enable the developer to do just that, but still.

Overall I was impressed with CE 3.0, but I do agree that it is just an attempt to get Windows on the small box. But Linux is getting it's debut on the unit also (http://www.pocketlinux.com/). When talking about Linux on a PDA they seem to focus on the Ipaq for some reason. Out of all the PDAs that I've been looking @ I have to admit I like all the attention the Ipaq is getting from the software industry.

;-phobos-)

Hobbes

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by phobos:
Out of all the PDAs that I've been looking @ I have to admit I like all the attention the Ipaq is getting from the software industry.

;-phobos-)

</font>

What attention is that then?

There is little to nothing out on the Compaq that palm don't already have btw.

phobos

That's true, BUT!

When I went online to find J2ME JDKs, there was a batch available for the Ipaq. VMs are also abundant for the Strong Arm architecture that Ipaq uses.

I'm not knocking Palm, but I can sense a bit of competition between the two. A bit like Mac and PC really?.

But out of kewlness, I think the Ipaq wins hands down. Like come on, who wants to look like they're playing tetris on a dot matrix display, when they can be watching vids on a crip colour TFT. I personally think that Palm still has that personal organiser look about it, while Ipaq with it's colour display and Windows/Linux like OS's, is looking more like a mini PC.

;-phobos-)

Hobbes

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by phobos:

But out of kewlness, I think the Ipaq wins hands down. Like come on, who wants to look like they're playing tetris on a dot matrix display, when they can be watching vids on a crip colour TFT.
;-phobos-)</font>

erm, the latest palm is color, auto recharges and supports some kind of memory cards. There is a guy in work has one and he was playing a movie on the screen. What's your point?

The new palm due out soon will be totally wireless with no antenna and color and self recharging.

Erm, there is a JDK for palm afaik (as well as Basic) though I can't understand why people feel the need to bloat thier memory of thier PDA.

Try doing it in ASM.

Not really a competition, but the arguments are similar. I hear someone go "Ooh yea but PC/Casio can do this! The Mac/Palm Can't" when it in fact it can, and quite well.

phobos

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Try doing it in ASM.
</font>

Assembley died in the advent if high level languages, when it came to modern PCs. Let assembley be used to add more functionality to my microwave or toaster .

My choice of progamming language was a debait that I don't want to get in to again, because that went on for a while before. But right now Java is leading the way in developing consumer wireless applications. I'm sure Trojan will back me up on this one.

Hobbes I think this could go on for a while, so let's just say that you like Palms and I like Ipaqs. I appreciate your contribution, but this thread is about opinions. You have yours as do I have mine.

Take care,

;-phobos-)

Red Moose

Assembly died off with the advent of high-level languages?

Yeah, I am ****ed off since binary died out with the advent of machine-code.

I think there is far more you can accomplish in small apps (< 100k) in assembly when RAM is at a premium (let us have a minute's silence in memory of Amiga).

That said, you get dick all portability, and I wouldn't fancy learning, what, Hitachi assembly for the iPaq?

phobos

Exactly! (what Red said).

You are not going to start coding in assembly these days. Ja the apps are going to be small in size, and run fast. But while gaining that, portability has just gone out the window. Think of how the VM has done wonders in this area.

;-phobos-)

Dr_Teeth

Phobos, if you're buying a PDA to use day-to-day, and to develop a final year project using J2ME, I'd suggest a palm device - preferably an m500 or 505. Sun have not released reference implementations of the KVM/CLDC or MIDP for any other OS other than PalmOS.

Doing a final year project on such devices can be difficult - if you want to work on something really cool with mobile devices like Bluetooth there's a lot of expense involved in getting sufficient hardware together to do an interesting project. Better to stick to something that can be delivered on hardware that the college provides I reckon.

Teeth.

phobos

You're probably right!.

You are not the first person to tell me this. But I was willing to take a chance, and try to create something impressive. I thought the idea of a wireless client would be kewl, something that would interface with the business tiers using a UI similar to that of 3G phones. I didn't want to use a WAP client, coz that's crap. I know im my college, something like what I imagined would be considered a kewl project. Every year students create software that is interfaced using a traditional PC, but I wanted to be different.

I am really interested in n-tier systems ever since I did a project on J2EE stuff last year. So I would like to stick to that kind of thing for the degree. They even gave me 100% for my efforts in the Diploma. So you can see why I am so enthusiastic to continue the trend.

But having said that I don;t want to go to too much expence getting a client platform together. Because being realistic, it's only 1 tier of many, but then again it will probably be only one example of a client interface to the system. In my head, there's many.

Cheers m8, this is the kinda info I'm looking for. If you can suggest anything further, I would love to hear from you. BTW it's not too late for me to scrap the idea of a wireless client, coz @ this stage I'm only trying to get more ready than I was this time last year. If there is any other enterprise developers out there gizza bell.

;-phobos-)

koloth

If you're looking to develop for PocketPC (IPAQ) without shelling out for the hardware, you could download Microsoft eMbedded Visual Tools (for free) and write a VB application for PocketPC. There's a really neat .net demo at pocketpc.com, uses SOAP to get real-time stock quotes, translations etc from the internet. eVB includes a PocketPC emulator, so you develop on your desktop and preview your in the emulator. Emulation includes the ability to connect to the internet. Freaky when you see it working.

Hardware wise, I use my IPAQ and my siemens cell phone to the internet connect wirelessly. Not the handiest solution altogether, but very impressive in motion. People are shocked

Hobbes

Assemby isn't dead.

Yes you would be nuts to write a full app in ASM, but if you need speed ASM is the way to go.

VB is portable? Since when? Portable to what?