No 2 NICE and EU Reform

Chaos-Engine

This is the 2nd most important reason why we Irish voted "No to Nice"(and will do again).
Ireland didn't suddenly turn cautious to the EU. It has always and will always be pro-EU and pro-enlargment.

Ireland was the only state that put ALL the treaties of the EU to its people. Ireland had to stop the continued errosion of smaller states rights within the EU.

A Major and HUGE reform is required to convince the smaller states that the EU is equal and fair.
the idea of a European Senate and European parliment is the way to go.

The council of ministers must be replaced by a European Senate with equal seats for all states. With one vote per seat and TRUE majority voting(not the current qualitfied majority). I hear the larger states hark "UNFAIR... HYPOCRICY". Well this is the only way that all states can be treated equally.

The European Parliment is proportionally representitive. It should become the main legislative body of the EU with the European Senate as an Upper chamber to approve or reject legislation from the lower chamer (EP)....

With both these bodies in place and a more transperant system the EU could take the next steps forward in integration.

AS for the President of the Commission. He should be directly elected by the citzens of the EU. and all commission meetings should be held in public along with the Senate and Parliment.

The Council of Ministers is a secritive chamber were the REAL power lies. I'm not about to vote for a system that gives them even more power and Ireland practically none what so ever..

With Nice the larger EU States - Germany, France, Italy and Britain - 
automatically treble their votes
in making EU laws from January 2005, 
while Small countries like
 Ireland only double theirs, 
irrespective of any EU enlargement. 
This shifts voting power 
decisively in favour of the Big States.
At present Ireland has 3 votes out of 83 on the Council of Ministers. 
In an EU of 27 Members we will have 7 votes 
out of 345, a fall in our percentage of the total from 3% to 2%

I'm not some sovernity looney. I merely want democracy and equality for all in an integrated and enlarged europe...

Chaos-Engine

A radical idea but very workable.

An Upper chamber - "European Senate" to replace the current secretive "Council of Ministers". The European Senate would be similar to the US Senate and Netherland's Senate idea.
Each member state would have 3 seats(1 of which must be selected from the opposition). The Senaters would be appointed by the various national governments. Voting would be 1 vote per Senater. And True majority voting could be used(i.e. 50%+) instead of the current weighted majority system which is vastly complex.
The Upper chamber - European Senate should merely act to approve and reject legislation from the Lower chamber - European Parliment. An end to the closed door sessions of the Council of Ministers in favour of an open and transperent Senate.

Some maybe against this model form the larger member states(France, Germany, Italy, Spain, UK). But I have encountered much support for this idea. Not only will it ensure

"A union of equal member states"

but it will also help in the removal of national vetos.

The European Parliment is Proportionally represented by population distributions and that I firmly support.
But in a federation like the EU (just like the US) equality between states must be secured otherwise the alternative is a Super-State totally dominated by the larger members.

If the EU is to sirvive then radical and workable ideas are needed.

Sand

Yeah, the EU needs to go back to representing citizens of Europe directly, rather than through the middleman of their national government- whove no interest in surrendering power/influence to the EU. Currently the whole system seems to be based on nation states rather than the european citizen ideal.

I dont think the Senators should be selected by national governments, both for the above reasons and the fact national governments tend to farm these posts out to old warhorses going out to pasture, rather than committed people who want to be there - Even eurosceptics like a British Tory MEP who used to write a diary about how he was fighting for Britain against the EU, at least he was interested in being there and representing his viewpoint. Direct election is a better alternative for the Senate imo.

Chaos-Engine

I must agree with you on the Senaters also being directly elected by the citzens of europe... BUt I merely pooped the suggestion that the national governments would select them as they would probably never agree to the European Senate(the big countries anyway)...
IN order for the institutions of the EU to function even after major reforms an EU constitution is essential to outline clearly the responsiblities and powers of the national governments and that of the EU..

Plus: No MEP/MES(Senators) should be aloud to simualtaneously hold a seat in a national parliment aswell as the european institutions...

dahamsta

So the question has to be asked: Do you think Bertie will embarass himself again this time by offering meaningless concessions to us; or do you think he'll spin some meaningless concessions and actually win?

(Of course, the third possibility, that he'll actually stand up for us and try and negotiate meaningful concessions, is hardly worth consideration.)

adam

Victor

Originally posted by Chaos-Engine
In an EU of 27 Members we will have 7 votes
out of 345, a fall in our percentage of the total from 3% to 2%

Fair point, but we only have 1% of the population.

Chaos-Engine

Proportional representation exists in the EP and should remain there.
However the Council of Ministers is totally dominated by the bigger states and if we pass Nice they will have even more power. I am all for the EU but only a fair and equal EU.

The European Senate should succeed the Council of ministers as an upper chamber. Then the next steps can be taken.

Cork

I think that NICE 2 will be a joke. I will be voting NO. NO to a EU super power. We need EU harmonisation in Fiscal policies a hole in the head. We need to stop this EU project.

What is the end game. European Unity? We don't know.

Putting another vote to the Irish people is not democratic.

Will Michael Noonan be looking for a rerun of the election?

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
I think that NICE 2 will be a joke. I will be voting NO. NO to a EU super power. We need EU harmonisation in Fiscal policies a hole in the head. We need to stop this EU project.

Wouldn't agree with a need for one size fits all fiscal policies. Given the dangers of an asymmetric economic shock hitting Eu countries, fiscal policy control is the only control governments have left to help the country in that situation.

What is the end game. European Unity? We don't know.

We do - and yes, it's "european unity" How or why we get there is the bigger problem.

Putting another vote to the Irish people is not democratic.

It is really. Pulling the wool over the eyes of the Irish public to get them to vote "yes" isn't democratic. One plebiscite or a hundred - they're all democratic. It's the method that may be the problem. As long as we have a vote we have the means to say "no" - the other fourteen EU states didn't get that option.

Will Michael Noonan be looking for a rerun of the election?

He isn't leader of his party any more - it's not all that relevant what he'll be looking for.

dahamsta

He isn't leader of his party any more - it's not all that relevant what he'll be looking for.

I nearly posted a kneejerk to that meself, since it's our old friend Cork, but his logic is actually correct -- if anyone in FG was going to call for a re-run of the election it would be Noonan, since he was the leader when the election was run.

I feel dirty now.

adam

Cork

As long as we have a vote we have the means to say "no" - the other fourteen EU states didn't get that option.

I agree but having the vote again is unnecessary. Don't get me wrong, I am pro European. We have done well out of Europe.

I don't agree with the shifting of powers over to the European parliament.

I believe in free trade area. Cooperation etc.

but,

We have got out of one empire and what do we do............get into another.

Chaos-Engine

Originally posted by Cork

I don't agree with the shifting of powers over to the European parliament.

In fact the parliment doesn't gain much at all from Nice. It is the unaccountable, secretive council of ministers and the larger states that are set to benefit.

Integration needs to proceed but only after clear division of the duties and areas of rule of the EU and the national governments.

I very much disagree with the intergovernmentist attitute that the EU is about free-trade and free-trade alone. It has to be more than that. Have a single currency is more damgaing to free trade in my opinion(no automatic exchange rate balances to counter inflation).

I'll be voting NO to Nice 2... BUt I have to say I am an active Europhile(but not a blind 1).

SO far the Idea of a European Senate hasn't be raised in the European Convention. Perhaps we should start getting organised and canvas John Bruton and the green party MEPs as they are the only irish in europe that do anything...