HiverCon Rip Off

root

http://www.hivercon.com/
HiverCon Nov 26th-27th 2002

"Announcing Ireland's first corporate computer security conference, HiverCon 2002."
The first, yeah right.

"The attendance fee for the conference is 1,200 Euros."
Euro is singular,even 1200 is singular.You know what you can do with your 1200 Euro.I'm making my presentation at Defcon.

cronus

It was very tempting to completely ignore this post.

Defcon only pay $200 to speakers, while HiverCon pays flights, 3 days in a hotel and 1000E.

And 1200E a ticket is quite similar to the price it would take to get to Defcon from Ireland if you factor in flights to Las Vegas, hotel at peak weekend rate, food, drink, ticket, etc.

HiverCon from Ireland assuming you are in Dublin only requires 1200E which gets you breakfast and lunch, so the price of attending Defcon and HiverCon are pretty similar.

I think the largest difference between Defcon and HiverCon is the level of talks. By offering more to speakers, HiverCon is able to pick and choose the best topics.

jmcc

Originally posted by cronus
I think the largest difference between Defcon and HiverCon is the level of talks. By offering more to speakers, HiverCon is able to pick and choose the best topics.

Sounds like another corporate cash-in operation to me. The reasoning for this is that 'Security' is the new buzzword to replace CMS or other failed dotcom idea. Thus we're probably going to see a lot more of this kind of corporate binge opportunity where wannabes corpo samurai in suits can bullsh1t each other about how leet they are and how they are advancing with their algorithms to factor prime numbers. Of course they may actually get some clueful people to talk at the conf.

It may be a bit of a cynical response but with the recent dotbomb unpleasantness, a lot of marketdroids are looking for new ways of cashing in. Without knowing the provenance of the organisers of this conference, it is difficult to judge it.

Has anyone checked if the hotel conference facilities are actually booked for the dates in question?

Regards...jmcc

yellum

Yeah, why spend all that money going to Vegas when I can stay at home and travel to Dublin for the same price ? Makes so much sense. :rolleyes:

Sounds like a moneymaking scheme to me, nothing more. I'm sure the big financial companies will attend, they always need to waste money to retain their budget.

I think I'll go to Defcon as well, it ain't corporate.

cronus

If any of you decide to go to Defcon, I hope you find it money well spent. Its right to say that its not a corporate event where HiverCon is. The ticket price is not an attempt to cash in, rather to facilitate a higher caliber of speakers. I don't want to put down Defcon because events like it have thier merits, but you get what you pay for.

Cake Fiend

[troll]
€1200 is not singular :rolleyes: and "Euros" is the correct way to express this. Ask 'Yoda' if you need clarification on this, he's been campaigning on the boards for people to recognize it.
[/troll]

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

you sure bout this? ... almost certain it's euro. seing as some european countries don't put an s on the end of words to make em plural.

*end off topic*

jmcc

Originally posted by cronus
Its right to say that its not a corporate event where HiverCon is. The ticket price is not an attempt to cash in, rather to facilitate a higher caliber of speakers.

So Cronus, since your home page is actually that of hivercon, would you care to explain the background of the conference and the background of the people promoting this conference? Since you seem to be the promoter, you would be best placed to do this.

Until there is a better explanation, it has to be treated as just another attempt to cash in on the gullibility and the willingness of the companies to pay the high attendance fee.

Defcon can draw on a large pool of expertise, whereas your hivercon seems to be drawing on a very small pool. Then there is the attendant legal problems, especially if some of the papers outline a successful attack on an Irish domiciled server. The legal angles on this one are scary.

Regards...jmcc

ecksor

1200 EUR isn't that outrageous for a two day conference, depending on what you get for your money. Whether it is worth it or not will obviously depend on the quality of the speakers, facilities, etc.

I hope that cronus has a successful conference, and I wish him the best of luck, although I can see why people are sceptical.

jmcc, your first post was reasonable, but your second one is pure fantasy. Stick to facts or I will lock the thread.

jmcc

Originally posted by ecksor
jmcc, your first post was reasonable, but your second one is pure fantasy. Stick to facts or I will lock the thread.

Do some checking Ecksor. Cronus' homepage as listed in his boards profile is www.hivercon.com. Asking for details is logical. Without the details it has to be treated as just another attempt at making money from companies. This is not fantasy - it is merely a case of you not checking the facts.

If a paper outlined a successful attack on an Irish server then the attack, the attacker and the victim would be within the same jurisdiction. Throw some angry company into the mix and they would be forced to take action to save face. There is always a social aspect to any hack or crack.

Now it may be possible to claim public interest if it was published in the press but if the victim was unaware of the origin of the attack and or did not know the identity of the attacker then it would be tantamount to a confession if all pieces of the jigsaw fitted. For example demonstrating WiFi insecurity is one thing (probably covered under public interest defence in the press) however going further, say connecting to the WiFi net and sniffing passwords and even trying to use them could be going into very dodgy territory.

It would be a very good thing for cronus/hivercon to get the legal aspect sorted out regarding the presentation of papers rather than taking any unnecessary risks.

Regards...jmcc

cronus

I am one of the organisers of HiverCon, my name is Mark Anderson for those of you who don't know me.

There really is little else I can say about quality of speaker until we've released the list of confirmed speakers for HiverCon. I suggest those of you who are interested sign up for the mailing list on the site and decide for yourself whether the ticket price is worth paying once you've seen the list of speakers.

All of the papers will be vetting prior to the conference so legal problems such as attacks on Irish servers will be flagged in plenty of time. But I fail to see how this potential problem would stop anyone from buying a ticket.

ecksor

Originally posted by jmcc

Do some checking Ecksor. Cronus' homepage as listed in his boards profile is www.hivercon.com.

I'm aware of this.

Asking for details is logical. Without the details it has to be treated as just another attempt at making money from companies. This is not fantasy - it is merely a case of you not checking the facts.

Being sceptical is fine. Asking questions is fine.

If a paper outlined a successful attack on an Irish server then the attack, the attacker and the victim would be within the same jurisdiction. Throw some angry company into the mix and they would be forced to take action to save face. There is always a social aspect to any hack or crack.

This is what I object to. This may be a possible scenario, but it is still just conjecture and, in my honest opinion, not very likely.

For example demonstrating WiFi insecurity is one thing (probably covered under public interest defence in the press) however going further, say connecting to the WiFi net and sniffing passwords and even trying to use them could be going into very dodgy territory.

I can see that we're dealing with a keen legal brain here.

It would be a very good thing for cronus/hivercon to get the legal aspect sorted out regarding the presentation of papers rather than taking any unnecessary risks.

I would imagine that is good advice.

root

You can not compare hiwhatevercon to defcon.We are talking 1200 at the door !!! Defcon is like 100 dollars.There is no comparison between Vegas and Dublin.Dublin sucks compared to Vegas.

Defcon has history and a great future.This crap is a corporate rip off.

Originally posted by cronus
It was very tempting to completely ignore this post.


And 1200E a ticket is quite similar to the price it would take to get to Defcon from Ireland if you factor in flights to Las Vegas, hotel at peak weekend rate, food, drink, ticket, etc.

opics.

jmcc

Originally posted by ecksor

I can see that we're dealing with a keen legal brain here.

If you want to appear as a patronising pedant, please get the expression right. It is 'keen legal mind'.

Companies react in very different ways to attacks. One easy avenue, especially if all three parts were in the same jurisdiction. Hitting an easy target with legal action would be an effective way for a company to claim that it was being 'proactive' in terms of security.

The new conditional access legislation that was enacted into Irish law from the EU directive makes the publishing and promotion of hacks on CA systems (password schemes/stream encryption etc) illegal. Now in most cases, the company would have to take action against the promoter, which in this case would be the promoters of hivercon. However you can see that it an easy angle for a slighted company to take.

Now I don't know if you have ever presented a paper at a conference Ecksor but dealing with security issues in a public forum is a very tricky business when you bring specifics into the equation. If the methodology is public knowledge, and can be proven to be such, it is safer. However anything really detailed would have to be legaled. Getting the legal situation sorted out first is crucial.

Regards...jmcc

cronus

Bare in mind jmcc that unless you wish to present a paper that might have legal ramifications, you really shouldn't worry about it. Any no point will the delegates, speakers or HiverCon organisers be in any danger from a legal standpoint.

As for root, if you're only gripe with HiverCon is its price, then by all means go and enjoy Defcon.

ecksor

Originally posted by jmcc
It is 'keen legal mind'.

Of course it is. The legal profession's loss, of course.

You're still dragging this thread off-topic, so I'm locking it as I said I would. Feel free to start a new thread if you wish to complain about it.