Any professional game programmers here?

Kid Icarus

How can I get into the business? (I've one more year in a Comp. Sci. degree in UCD left)

Can anybody tell me of a course in Ireland specifically for game programming?

thx

DeadBankClerk

have you written any games?
thats where you should start, so that you have a porfolio to show.
look at www.gamasutra.com for job offers from all the top companies

Void

Damnit, I wrote a massive post and lost it all coz the image I attached was too big. Here's an abridged version...

I teach the game development module in Ballyfermot's LUDO course. It's the only specific game development course in the country but at the moment it mainly focused on 3DSMAX. My module teaches them how to load their MAX art into a Java 3D engine of my own design, thus getting practical experience of working on a gamedev team. Actually, I have a meeting with the college next week to decide on any changes for next year.

Also, I should be getting some contract work from an Irish games company soon, with the prospect of Xbox development in the future. I've been working on a game for the last 4 years (http://hosted.quake.ie/void - site is down at the mo, will get it sorted). Some bloke noticed the website (Diablo 2's senior project manager at Havas in fact) and voila, I'm teaching gamedev and about to start the real thing professionally!

I'm going to upload my Champion Java3D engine (Champion is it's name see...) and the course notes. Anyone interested should download the Java 2 SDK 1.3 and the Java3D 1.3 Beta.

LUDO veterans (I know you're out there!) will not recall anyone teaching Java 3D engine stuff. This is because I only started this year. Next year, I'm hoping to persuade them to completely replace VB with Java.

And when did Trojan replace me as mod? I never noticed before!

Nietzschean

just out of interest why da hell would anyone want to do comp sci? ye look at that thread on who technology employeers would employ....and you lot are well down the list...........

and icarus my brother is in your year doing same course and with what they seem to have tought ye it would take a full course of extra training for you to do game programming....i ain't started college can i could program a game easier than him....

Greenbean

You do computer science because you're into computers, duh. Computer science courses are interested in getting more post-graduates who will carry on the work of computer science.. they don't give a **** about your job prospects.. if you're doing computer science because it pays well you've gone the wrong direction (plenty of more practical based computer courses); though computer scientists are hardly sniffed at and further down the line you'll find "must have computer science degree" cropping up more and more - a senior programmer without a computer science degree gets plenty of questions asked.

UCD is perhaps one of the worst for not preparing you for the work place but usually this wouldn't matter - apart from the fact last year the IT sector went into reverse - I think UCD cs has never had so many applications for post-grad after the summer was over. Things are picking up and you should be able to find the normal route of going into a big company like SUN or Microsoft to gain experience if you're lucky. But of course you wanted to find out about computer games development....

First things first, Games dev companies traditionally scoffed at computer science degrees, because most people came from a bedroom/hacker type background and learned everything by themselves and thats what mattered not the degree. Now as development teams are getting bigger and bigger computer science graduates are proving to be very usefull, nice cheap theoretically minded people who are prepared to specialise in some specific area and have the benefit of knowing their Object Oriented stuff - eg, doing the GUI or more typically writing artist Tools, eg 3dmax. Problem is typical computer science graduates may be used to thinking about abstract theory - a ton of them don't have basic practical grounding - UCD is pretty bad for this - all theory, very little hardcore coding. So what games dev companies want is people with 1.1 degrees or maybe 2.1 degrees - since these people typically know their ****; and then they'll grill you on what you really know about programming - eg "What games have you written in your spare time", "What do you know about Bitwise operations", "Why is recursion sometimes a bad thing", "Do you know much assembly language?".

I took 3 interviews in one week in England for games jobs, pretty much straight out of UCD - it had been 4 months since I'd last did a jot of C++ programming and the reality of the situation dawned on me pretty quickly. I was fairly theoretically minded, but had no evidence of having programmed in my spare time, I could barely remember my c++, knew no assembly language, only knew a little about directx, max sdk, and general game programming and apart from my project had nothing to prove my worth. I just about put in a good interview by the 3rd one when I'd sussed out all the right and wrong things that I'd done and prepared something to tackle them eg, "admittedly I don't know assembly language but I realised the basic concept and I'd be prepared to learn" etc. Also remember, most people interviewing you won't think your degree is worth anything if you can't back it up in some way that shows you're not a clueless wannabe - and remember you'll probably be interviewed by an old skool type who pulled themselves up by the boot straps etc and won't like the look of your naive innocent face.

Ignore the SerialKillers of the world, everyone loves to shout the "Computer Science aren't worth ****" line, but if you've done computer science for the right reasons the animosity will merely amuse you. I'd seriously recommend you do loads of c/c++ programming in your spare time if you haven't already - and if you're brave enough check out some assembly language - try crack a few games or something. If you do start a project in your spare time, make it a small one, take it seriously and finish it - this is wayyyyyyyyy more important than choosing a big project that you won't finish. Take your crappy small project very seriously because in an interview the interviewer will be taking it very seriously too. They realise finishing a small input based game is no small feat. Make a tetris clone for example and avoid 3d. Prove you understand the basic concepts of the game loop, user input, interface, sound, gameplay and finishing the damn thing.

Kid Icarus

I teach the game development module in Ballyfermot's LUDO course. [SNIP]

Is there any site for this course? I'd like to find out more information about it. Prospectus perhaps? And thanks for the help everybody.

Suddenly I think my (future) Comp Sci degree is a piece of piss. Damnit, I love playing games, and coding them for a living is my dream.

Trojan

It seems a pretty tough industry to get into, so you'll have to be persistant, and don't give up too easily. Also, as GB said, side-projects are massively important (in any programming job).


Check out this Ravensoft page on how to get a job in games development.

Peter: month or so.

Al.

Saruman

Dont Microsft do a course at Ballyfermot college? I heard something about that a few years back!

Kix

Serialkiller,

I was one of those who bemoaned the lack of practical skills given to Comp Sci graduates but I'd have to say that that you're dead wrong.

You need the love and interest in computers and programming to succeed. Given that, you're still far better off with a Comp Sci degree than without one. We would probably never consider someone without a degree. If you can't be arsed to get an education it doesn't speak very highly for you as a potential employee in what is a quite intellectual discipline.

K

Hobbes

One thing to note.

Game Development is very different then Game programming.

Programming is just one field. There would also be things like.

- Art work, animation, maps development.
- QE testing (you get to play the game)
- Game flow development (eg. MMORPG's)

Also each genre has it's own set of skills.

For example, Designing a MMOG requires a lot of skills that programming just won't cover. What works for 1-10 players won't work for 100 or 1000 players.

I believe Jessica Mulligan did a good write up on this (Biting the Hand, www.happypuppy.com).

The only thing I can really say is that Game programming is very different. If you are getting into it because you like playing games or you think "that's where the money is" then you are probably not going to like it.

Greenbean

"Suddenly I think my (future) Comp Sci degree is a piece of piss. Damnit, I love playing games, and coding them for a living is my dream."

Don't be thinking the Comp Sci degree isn't worth anything, if you're competent in all the theory, all the types of sorting algorithms, programming methods, if you pay attention to the likes of Henry and Mel (avoid Ahmed if you want a first class degree, he'll screw you around) you will have gained a huge amount of knowledge and hopefully learned how to think in the right way to deal with complicated ideas. It will stand to your benefit in many ways. Its just that for games programming... well look at the top 1 or 2 guys in the class - the real nerds, maths heads, been programming in their spare time for fun, only coming out of their shell since arriving at college - those are the people that the games companies want. You are competiting with these people when you go for a games job. Best thing you can do is start learning some hardcore c or c++ skills in your own time to catch up.

Games specific courses are still yet to be taken wholly serious by games companies but it is happening - just don't expect an automatic job at the end of one.

Cake Fiend

Fscking GG regarding Java in Ludo. The VB module was bull**** - when I took the course we didn't even have the choice the previous year had of learning C alongside VB; fair enough only two of us wanted to do it, but we should have had the choice of learning a real programming language. There wasn't really all that much to gain from the course for anyone who was more interested in the programming side of things than the 3D modelling side, I'm glad that's changing (although I did learn a lot about from one of the most important lessons the course teaches - how to work as part of a dev team).

IMO the course needs to take the focus off the 3D module and spread it more evenly over other parts. E.g. I learnt bugger all about texture map designing, sound editing, actual game planning and storyboarding, programming (which was my main interest) and through not having as much interest in 3D modelling I didn't even learn that much from that part of the course.

spod

I'm not a professional games developer but I know two.

One of them worked for funcom on Xbox games. His brother was already working there and got him a summer job after getting firsts in both first and second year comp sci. He loved it, got on well there and decided to stay on as opposed to going back to college. To say he's a smart guy and a c++/3dmath wizard is a big understatement.

He's back in college now in my class finishing off his comp sci degree, so for fun he works on fluid dynamics for games and other scary stuff. He's also the only person I personally know who has had an image of the day on flipcode.

The other was the only person without a postgraduate qualification hired in havoks development team the year he graduated from college after doing a very very impressive graphics project. Nowadays he's working on inter game networking stuff, at least he was last time I was speaking to him.
Again another very smart guy who got a first in his final year of comp sci.

Whilst both of them are obviously interested in computers and work on fun stuff at home, they both also have real life interests. The first is a great drummer in a good band and the second is one of the best non professional (ie. not in a circus) jugglers I know.

So, as others have said, you seem to need brains, strong programming and maths skills and also be a decent person who can work well in a team and not just be a loner sterotypical antisocial lone warrior coder.

Nietzschean

ah ignore us?
but then who would be there to put the people doing comp sci down?

and as regards post grad work....comp sci all dat ****e they do i'd be more inclined to see people with theoretical phyics degree's getting those options...cause well we smart

Bosco

Originally posted by Kid Icarus

Suddenly I think my (future) Comp Sci degree is a piece of piss.

I'd give my right testicle for a degree in Computer Science.

In fact, if anyone reading has the power to award degrees and fancies a healthy young testicle please PM me.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Kid Icarus
Suddenly I think my (future) Comp Sci degree is a piece of piss. Damnit, I love playing games, and coding them for a living is my dream.

No it helps to get your first and second jobs. So will, to a lesser extent, a six-month diploma or certificate in programming of some form. Any qualiifcation helps at the start.

However, with the influx of lemmings following the money in recent years and the tightening of the market in the last two, employers have become more suspicious of graduates who frankly should not have done comp. sci in the first place. As someone pointed out, you're competing with the uber-geeks who code for fun, and any experienced interviewer will be able to differentiate them from the more mediocre opportunists.

Ultimately, after a few years in the business, while having any degree will always be of benefit, no one will really care if you have a BSc or not.

Nietzschean

himm being refrenced as an uber-geek....should one be offended?

Greenbean

No you weren't being referenced at all. "the uber-geeks who code for fun"; you might also code for fun, but it certainly wasn't a direct reference to your good self.

DeadBankClerk

Originally posted by Void
I'm hoping to persuade them to completely replace VB with Java.

Why not teach c(++) / assembly?
All the money in the games business is in console development.

Nietzschean

No you weren't being referenced at all. "the uber-geeks who code for fun"; you might also code for fun, but it certainly wasn't a direct reference to your good self.

yesh what kinda comment is that to make like????

i can do plenty thanks very much......wanker....

Scrowubit

Have you ever tried game programming?
if you've got 1 year left in a CS degree then i'd expect you have some c++ experience,
check out some game programming tutorials like NeHe's OpenGL tutorials

i found opengl (3D) easier to use than direct draw (2D) when i started because of the above site

though if youre not all that experienced with c++ or dont want to get into win32 programming you could try Allegro , its a pretty simple & reliable Dos graphics library, for the most part it produces graphics like that of the Snes

either way you should try it out to see if you like programming games as much or more than you like playing them before you go jumping into another course.

Hope that helped

Shinji

Serialkiller - I can absolutely assure you that no matter how smart you think you are (and the nature of your posts suggests that it's really you that thinks you're smart, nobody else), you will never get anywhere in the games industry with an attitude like that. Games companies are small, the industry is incestuous and gossip-driven. Anyone who came across as overbearingly and pretentiously as you would be out on his ear and looking for a new career in no time.

Oh, and it's remarkably tech-literate and net-literate too. It's amazing the way people's comments on random web-boards come up to bite them in the behind when they start working in this industry...



Regarding game programming itself... Some general comments from someone who knows the industry pretty well. Nothing too specific because I'm not personally a developer at the moment, although I have a lot of close contact with that sector.

CS is a good degree to start from, but realistically if you want a decent position in the industry you should be a hobbyist programmer with a CS degree rather than a random guy whose knowledge is CS and no more. The industry is entirely focused on C and C++; what little Java work there is is mobile phone focused and that's pretty underfunded and frail right now.

You'll need a good knowledge of how 3D works on a technical level, and how game code works on a general level. Assembly language understanding and the ability to learn fast helps; it's not unusual to find yourself in a position where you have to learn something like MIPS assembler or VU instructions in a short period of time.

More than anything, you need a good attitude, the ability to deal with a hell of a lot of hard work, and the ability to keep up with an industry which is at THE cutting edge of computer science in almost every way. Games don't just push hardware, they push software engineers too, and the best computer scientists in the world right now are working in this field.



Regarding learning... If you don't think hours spent at home preparing your own prototypes, playing with OpenGL and Direct3D and learning 3D graphics theory from books is for you, you might want to consider doing an MSc in Computer Games Technology and Virtual Environments at the University of Abertay, Dundee. They also do an undergraduate course in this. The MSc is fairly highly rated and should open doors within an industry which can be a tough call to get into if you don't have a good portfolio of hobbyist work.

Greenbean

SerialKiller, I repeat, it wasn't you who was being referenced - you seemed to assume you were. Corinthian noted from my post earlier "As someone pointed out, you're competing with the uber-geeks who code for fun".... ie the smart geeks in college. You took this to mean yourself "himm being refrenced as an uber geek". I helped clear things up for you.

I hardly appreciate being called a wanker, but I'm simply amused. For someone who nearly breaks a rib blowing his own trumpet for intelligence you seem awfully confused as to what people are really saying.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Greenbean
SerialKiller, I repeat, it wasn't you who was being referenced - you seemed to assume you were. Corinthian noted from my post earlier "As someone pointed out, you're competing with the uber-geeks who code for fun".... ie the smart geeks in college. You took this to mean yourself "himm being refrenced as an uber geek".

This is correct, I had no one and certainly not SerialKiller in mind when I posted. I also don't see any offence in the term 'uber-geek'.

Originally posted by Shinji
Oh, and it's remarkably tech-literate and net-literate too. It's amazing the way people's comments on random web-boards come up to bite them in the behind when they start working in this industry...

Agreed...

d4r3n

Originally posted by Serialkiller
himm being refrenced as an uber-geek....should one be offended?

No you weren't being referenced at all. "the uber-geeks who code for fun"; you might also code for fun, but it certainly wasn't a direct reference to your good self.

i can do plenty thanks very much......wanker....

serial relax, when you think their talking about you and wondering if you should be offended (refering to yourself as an uber-geek who codes for fun) then when he said he wasnt talking about you you go a bit mental

as if being offended of not being called an 'uber-geek', some ****ed up stuff there + relax + your not an uber-geek, you hardly code + relax with that physics degree stuff, your still doing your leaving cert

Ronin

didn't we have this conversation already?

Just doing a degree take comp sci for example doesn't mean ur know jack. Its what you do in your spare time that counts. Its the one thing that they forget to teach you. Your expected to figure everything out for yourself.

Comp sci in UCD teachs how to think about the methods of coding in the various languages and all the theory behind comp sci, hence the name computer science rather then computer programming. In some places you do 9-5 college with programming/coding as a main thing towards going on, comp sci in ucd focus's more on the theory and kinda leaves the practical stuff upto yourself, a mistake imho because only the few people interested will start doing different things outside what needs to be done to get a passing grade.

If you really want to go into the field you've and interest in, then comp sci degree will stand to you, but just a degree means jack. You need the extra fluffy bits to add onto the basis of a degreee..

like you could have a cool final year project and have worked in spar for the 4 summers of college which someone with a lesser degree has worked every summer in a company related to their field. Now while there grades may no be the best in the world, they have the real world experience advantage which stands for more.

As Greenbean has said you need to have been messing around with stuff for ages and be willing to learn and adapt to changes thrown at you.

But just going out there with your degree is stupid. You've got to work for what you want.

Prime example is bradon reinhart who worked on UT as a member of epic and now works at 3d Realms.

DeadBankClerk

Get some good prgrammers from your course and write a nice game in c++ over the summer.
Then you have a product to market yourself on.

Trojan

Some good replies in there, I think that's enough for now.

PM if you want unlocked.

Al.