Peoples Right to religion..

popinfresh

Just a thought, but is our being baptised at birth not kinda taking away some of our rights. I mean where's our choice in what religion we are? I think you should only baptised into a religion if you are making the decision. If you choose to beleive in god, then you, and not your parents, should get to choose exactly how you wish to worship.
And I think that if this right were to have been introduced 40 years ago, the Catholic Church wouldn't have any followers to betray....

Victor

popinfresh, your parents get to make the choices up to the point where you gety to make choices, it's a simple fact that affects every part of life, not just religion. Would you have it that it would be against the law to be baptised until you were say 12 or 18 or whatever? Isn't that the state telling religion what to do?

I *want* a "Religion" board or rather I want a "Rants against Religion" board ASAP.

popinfresh

I'm saying if there's an age-limit for having sex, and an age-limit for drinking, then there should be an age limit to dedicating your soul to a particular religion. This whole being baptised at birth is bull****e, because that means your religion depends on whatever your parents want you to be. That means that you could be forced into the wrong religion. Or that you could be still a member of a religion even if you don't beleive in god..

DadaKopf

Originally posted by popinfresh
I'm saying if there's an age-limit for having sex, and an age-limit for drinking, then there should be an age limit to dedicating your soul to a particular religion. This whole being baptised at birth is bull****e, because that means your religion depends on whatever your parents want you to be. That means that you could be forced into the wrong religion. Or that you could be still a member of a religion even if you don't beleive in god..

But if you have a soul, your soul is your soul - it's just a matter of what particular story you like. If you don't like the story your parents tell you, then read a new one. Seems to me that you're fretting over nothing. And if you don't believe in that hokum religious soul crap, then read a story that doesn't involve God. Jeez, cry baby.

seamus

Originally posted by popinfresh
This whole being baptised at birth is bull****e, because that means your religion depends on whatever your parents want you to be. That means that you could be forced into the wrong religion. Or that you could be still a member of a religion even if you don't beleive in god..

But this is what gets me about the argument. You are only part of a religion if you want to be!!!

I said this before - as far as I'm concerned, some guy poured water on my head when was a kid and muttered some words. Baptism doesn't force you to do anything. It's not a categorisation, or an ethnicity, it's just a choice your parents decided to make. There is no-one who can force you to propagate their decision, no-one who can force you to be part of that religion.

It's very annoying, I can see exactly what I mean in my head, but it's very hard to describe. The only thing I can equate it with is - A trust fund.

Let's say your parents create a trust fund for you when you're born, which becomes your property when you're 18. At 18 you have two choices - cash in and change what you do with money, or keep it where it is.

Think of your soul as the cash

sceptre

Ha, I had this very conversation with 'erself a few nights ago. The way I'm working it out is that it'll be a few years (hopefully ) before we have kids - now is the time to start putting things in her mind and start discussing them.

Ok, my view then. I'm not a Catholic. I was baptised as a Catholic. The topic came up at home when I was talking about the "Religion" entry on the census form and wondering what to write in (fyi: in the end I abandoned "sun worshipper" and ticked the "no religion" box).

My father's opinion was that I should tick the "Roman Catholic" box because I had been baptised. While I agree with comments that you're only a member of a club if you want to be, I feel fairly strongly that I'm not a member of that club. If I died in the morning, they'd insist on having a funeral (in a church, with a priest) and going through the whole religious thing. Which is not what I'd like. As the subject comes up over time (assuming I don't die any time soon), I'll gradually extract a promise from Anne that when I do die, she won't let me go near a church. I'm not anti-religion (not really at any rate - it's not like I'll deny anyones right to believe what they want to believe or worship anything they want to) or anti-Catholic, I just don't want to be part of it (due to my strongly-held conviction that it's all rubbish)

If it were purely up to me, I wouldn't baptise my children. As they grew up, I'd treat the Christian religions (and obviously the Catholic philosophy) like any others, instructing them in the basics of the various philosophies and letting them make up their own minds (while of course letting them know that all their known ancestors were Catholic except for one great-great-grandmother on their fathers side).

If they want to get baptised, that would be their own decision. A decision that they can make as soon as I think they're ready to make it (or when they actually are ready to make it - it might come when they are ten, fifteen, sixteen). By the time they're sixteen, the decision is entirely theirs. At that point, they're less likely to just go for a particular religion just because they don't want to be different to their peers.

As can be fairly clear from ther above, I don't stay away from Mass (or churches) because of laziness - if anything it's been more trouble to be unreligious over the past ten years than it would have been if I'd just shut up and turned up once a week. My girlfriend doesn't go to mass, except at Christmas (and of course that's her decision, albeit one partly founded out of laziness). I'd hate to see a position where she thought she had to go to the local church once a week purely because she wanted to "set a good example for the children"

So what will happen? They'll be baptised - she probably won't hear of anything else (partly due to her own family pressures - which is not the best reason to do something). I can guarantee they won't grow up believing in something merely because of something one of their parents believed in though (if I wanted that, I could just buy them a football jersey and get them to join one of the main political parties). Obviously I don't think "2 weeks old" is a good enough time for them to make a decision on whether thay want to join a particular religion (or any at all) but I still don't think of it as a good idea.

Victor

Originally posted by sceptre
If I died in the morning, they'd insist on having a funeral (in a church, with a priest) and going through the whole religious thing. Which is not what I'd like.

Then write a will that dictates your wishes.

sceptre

Originally posted by Victor

Then write a will that dictates your wishes.

Reasonable, good (and obvious) suggestion. Ta.

Manach

Death. This why I think the ceromey of baptism is important. Not too long ago a percentage of babies & mothers died during childbirth. Baptism represents a sort of triumph, that the family circle can come together and celebrate this.

Venom

Religion has and always will be in my mind nothing more than a tool to control the poupulous and make alot of money into the process.

azezil

The point of Baptism is to save you from the original sin. According to the bible we're all born sinners cause of Adam's indiscretions. If your parents believe in god they're going to baptise you to save your soul...

It's an act of concern and love on your parent’s part so go back to your parents and thank them for being such good parents and stop your whinging

The Corinthian

I was once quite resentful of the fact that I was forced to eat my veggies at dinner, and go to school, and do my homework, and not look at nudy pictures of gurls, and not pull the legs off insects. I couldn't even vote! A more explicit example of abuse of my basic rights to self expression you couldn't find.

Then my hormones got back under control, my parents stopped giving me pocket money and I had to earn my own living. I even got the vote - in two countries (and I never even use it)!

:rolleyes:

bonkey

Originally posted by sceptre
If it were purely up to me, I wouldn't baptise my children. As they grew up, I'd treat the Christian religions (and obviously the Catholic philosophy) like any others, instructing them in the basics of the various philosophies and letting them make up their own minds (while of course letting them know that all their known ancestors were Catholic except for one great-great-grandmother on their fathers side).

You'd have "great fun" trying to explain to your children why they couldnt attend some classes which their classmates in school attended.

Also try explaining to a young child why all their friends get to make their first confession and first communion, but they cant because you disagree that they should.

I also hope you'd never do anything as low as celebrate Christmas with them - a Christian feast?

I'm not (just) trying to wind you up here. When I was growing up, there was a man living a few hundred yards away (we lived in a rural area). He was (IIRC) a Moslem, married to a Catholic. They agreed to go the non-denominational route. After several years of continued anguish with their first child over exactly the points I raised above, they both agreed to allow their second child to be babtised and raised as a Catholic until he was at such an age that he could decide for himself.

You were baptised a Catholic, going on what you've written. It hasnt stopped you forming your own beliefs once you were at an age to do so. Your stance, to me indicates that perhaps you dont have the belief that your children would be capable of making the same decision?

Also - remember - you are saying that they should be no religion until they are old enough to understand what that means. What it means is that until they are of that age, you should be obliged to either protect them from all religion, or expose them to all. And I do mean all. But you cant do that. Its not possible. Will you resolutely not celebrate any event which is associated to some religion? Or will you celebrate all of them? If you dont do one or the other, then surely you are warping the "religious freedom" you wish for your children?

jc

ykt0di9url7bc3

Originally posted by azezil
The point of Baptism is to save you from the original sin. According to the bible we're all born sinners cause of Adam's indiscretions. If your parents believe in god they're going to baptise you to save your soul...

It's an act of concern and love on your parent’s part so go back to your parents and thank them for being such good parents and stop your whinging

some cults get you when you are young, but no the Catholic church goes after your parents.....

i wonder if we had utopia would we have religion, considering that religion tries to create a utopia...

catholic church anyway, tries to create a well functional society, i mean if everyone followed the ten commandments then there would a great world to live in, to raise children in....its one of the few things that makes me a believer in the church, that a jesus saying "love thy nieghbour"......

but then again man is corrupt, opertunist, resourceful prick at the best of times and the failings of the church are not in the bible, but the administration of our faith......

to be honest why choose when the parents who want the best for you make some choices until you are 12 years of age...
i didnt mind a little growing up, and what would the truth do at that age

smiles

Originally posted by SearrarD

catholic church anyway, tries to create a well functional society, i mean if everyone followed the ten commandments then there would a great world to live in, to raise children in....its one of the few things that makes me a believer in the church, that a jesus saying "love thy nieghbour"......

Thats exactly what i believe and was never really able to explain it. Religion is more like rules for life than anything else.

(thanks)

as for the choice of religion?

if you would prefer not to be baptised.... well would you prefer to be brought up without any language just so you could make a "choice" when you're older? (abstract comparrison but think about the idea)

<< Fio >>

ykt0di9url7bc3

Originally posted by smiles

if you would prefer not to be baptised.... well would you prefer to be brought up without any language just so you could make a "choice" when you're older? (abstract comparrison but think about the idea)

lol, all children will be relocated to greenland until as such time as they can choose their own nationality....

"...no johnny, no church, no passover, no koran....no johnny you can choose next year..."