Suicide victims: selfish b*stards?

Bard

An interesting debate has formed over peoples opionions on suicide victims.

Should we even call them 'victims' at all?

Jim McDaid, Minister for Tourism, was asked recently "How do you deal with suicide?" - He stood up immediately, eager to answer and said: "I think I've been holding back too long;- this is something I've been meaning to say for a long time. A friend of mine's son committed suicide. She said that half-an-hour after she found him she called him a 'selfish bastard'."

He went on to say "I completely agree with her. 90% of the time suicide is reactive and anyone who committs suicide is a selfish bastard."

These comments of his were met with total silence and were later described as "callous", "appalling" and "hurtful".

The Hon. Sec. of the Irish Association of Suicidology (yes, it's a word!) said that up to 90% of suicides are as a result of a psychiatric illness. "There probably is still a considerable amount of stigma attatched to suicide and these statements are quite hurtful.", he said. "It's like saying that people who are ill are selfish bastards. Nobody chooses to be ill", he added.

Some comment that suicide is not a conscious choice, - some say that those who do it are not being selfish because it is their ONLY choice. The main attackers of Dr. McDaid's comments have been, naturally enough, election candidates from opposing parties.

My question is simple - do you agree with Jim McDaid? Are people who commit suicide selfish bastards?

... oh I might as well make it a poll ... but discuss it at your leisure.

azezil

No not at all!

People who say its selfish are themselves the selfish one's for they only think about how the death of the person will effect them.

Elmo

I think that Minister McDaids remarks were perhaps a little too quick of the mark.

I think that while many people do commit suicide probably don’t think about others around them and what they will think after the death of a loved one.

I sure many people who have had a relative or friend who has commit suicide fell very sad at the death of this loved one and will be very anger at them and at what they did, and in relation to the friends story about her son well she was in a period of depression at the loss of her son and was probably very angry at not only him but on herself and the rest of the family for not seeing it coming.

To people out there that are thinking about committing suicide, Minister McDaid should have said that

You are loved by everyone around, you and if you were to die you would be missed, and you should think about your friends and family that except you for who you are, a person that they love and will never stop loving you.

(I hope that message does not anger anyone. I know that it is simplistic.)

swiss

I knew someone who committed suicide, and selfish is the last word I would use to describe his personality. I don't know why exactly people take a course of action that will cause such grief and suffering to those they love the most, contrary to their established character traits.

Sometimes I have felt that the lad was selfish in doing what he did, but he wasn't a selfish person. Whether it's just a momentary lapse, or feelings of inadequecy or depression that drive a person do do something like this, I am sure that in many cases people do not consider the full effects of their decision on their friends and family.

BuffyBot

McDaids message was possibly the stupidest thing a politician has said in a while.

People who commit suicide are not selfish in the least. They just can no longer see away out of their problems and despair - no one will ever know how the really felt, but I'm sure, in general, they thought long and hard about the effects it would have on their friends and loved ones.

koneko

That is ridiculous. Anyone that's committed suicide was in obvious emotional torment. They don't do it to spite someone. If someone is that unhappy in life and can't bear going on, are they meant to to keep a mate happy?

Jim McDaid should be arrested for emotional crimes against humans. To say something like that shows he has no compassion for people in serious emotional distress.

Aspro

Jim McDaid is the selfish bastard himself. What an insensitive and unprofessional (he's a f*cking doctor) thing to say.
But then, no surprises there. Typical of how out of touch with ordinary people these people are (and we only hear the stuff that the media discovers - what about all the shít they say when they think no-one is listening?).
Drunk with power, blurting out the first thing to come into their heads regardless of the impact it can have on people's lives. What about the family and friends of suicide victims? What added pain is a statement like that going to cause to their state of mind - their loss? First Molloy, now McDaid. These people don't deserve to be called "representatives".

The Corinthian

Originally posted by koneko
That is ridiculous. Anyone that's committed suicide was in obvious emotional torment. They don't do it to spite someone. If someone is that unhappy in life and can't bear going on, are they meant to to keep a mate happy?

I think the point is that just because one does not do something out of spite, doesn’t mean they won’t hurt them, especially if they are only concerned with their own feelings.

A suicide, is quite likely to be very concerned with their own pain – concerned enough to end their own life. The consequences of their actions to others – the pain that they will cause others – would become a secondary consideration, if one at all.

A bankrupt may decide to end it all, for example, but seldom considers the financial consequences to the family they’re leaving behind. From that perspective, suicide can be seen as a highly selfish act.

So McDaid’s comments would appear to be attributed to someone who suffered the wake of a suicide. Suicide is a terrible thing, but we shouldn’t forget that part of the reason for this is the damage it does to those left behind.

tHE vAGGABOND

I dont mean to start a flame war here, but I do see where he is coming from.

I know of a good few people who have taken their own lives, one who was quite close to me, its a huge problem. I have no idea to be honest why more young Irish people kill themselves then anywhere else in Europe. Im not going to use vague refrences to cases I know about cos there are people here who know me in real life.

But if person x is very unhappy somewhere in rural Ireland. In many cases they have brothers or sisters and maybe if they are lucky both parents will still be alive. They get to the point where they think they have no other option. Now lets say they do it, either on the spur of the moment, or after a while planning it. They have not thought about the effect it has on their family. Friends of mine who are guards seemed to spend their early careers sorting out a decient amount of this kind of thing, and tell me about the other family members being devistated. Almost to the point of repeating the act. Its just plain wrong, but what the answer is I have no idea. If I knew I would shout it from the roof tops.

Paula Yates killed herself cos of drugs and missing Mister INXS (as far as we know). Now she has a few kids, I would have no problem calling her a selfish cow for forgetting about her kids and doing what suited her.

He's not totally wrong, he's just a gob****e saying random ****e in an election, with other gob****es reacting as per opinion polls

At the same time, his basic idea could have some truth in it if you think about it, and think about the people close to the victim..

GreenHell

Suicide, yes I would agree that if someone decides to end their life with little or no regard of those around them who care/love them, ya that is selfish.

I dunno I find it very hard to justify suicide in my mind, its an option I don't really agree with or totally understand.

bonkey

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND
I dont mean to start a flame war here, but I do see where he is coming from.

<snip>

Paula Yates killed herself cos of drugs and missing Mister INXS (as far as we know). Now she has a few kids, I would have no problem calling her a selfish cow for forgetting about her kids and doing what suited her.

But isnt this exactly what The Hon. Sec. of the Irish Association of Suicidology (THSIAS) was talking about? We assume that it was a conscious choice on Ms. Yates' part, and therefore level the "inconsiderate" or "selfish" monikers at her. How do we know that she wasnt one of the "up to 90%" who were driven to it by a combination of her situation and a psychiatric illness which effectively gave her no choice.

Even if we assume that she wasnt ill, we must then acknowledge that she knew she was leaving kids, friends, and family behind. She knew that her taking her own life was going to have an effect on them. Rightly or wrongly, she made her decision with that information. This is selfish? We dont even know her reasoning - how can we judge it?

Yes, losing someone hurts. Losing someone whom you know took their own life (willingly, we assume) usually hurts more. Whats the immediate reaction? Blame. We blame them for doing this to us. We dont blame them for doing it to themselves, and we dont seek to understand their reasoning for it. All we care about is what they did to us.

Well, forgive me if I cant agree with that. What they did to themselves is far greater than what they did to us. They did so knowingly (if we exclude the psychiatric illness scenario) and willingly. You think our feelings are more important than their life? If not....then how can we call them selfish.

My feelings are not more important than someone's life. If someone wants to end their life, and judges that their situation merits such action, then I would be loathe to tell them that my feelings were more important than theirs when it came to their life. I dont own them, I dont control them, and I sure as hell dont make their decisions for them. For me to call their action selfish is to ignore their reasons, and only look at the impact their actions had on me.

jc

jc

Xterminator

To kill yourself is selfish.

I agree. I too have experienced suicide in my circle of friends. (well obviously not personally!).

Every case is individual. But whats not individual is that every suicide leaves behind permanant scars and hurt.
It is the pain the suicide inflicts on others that laeds me to say theyt are selfish.

I can understand desperation, illness etc. But that doesnt mean that suicide becomes valid, unless for euthenaisa reasons, eg, intolerable pain, or little or no quality of life.

I think in most cases it is the 'easy' way out fo the victim, and a life sentance for people who care about the victim.

X

tHE vAGGABOND

bonkey, I agree and disagree..

I see that everyone has their own reasons. I also accept that lots of medical people see it as a serious medical problem. Im not a doctor, so I have issues with that - but its one of these things that Im sure if I read up on it I would understand so I reserve judgement.

As far as I remember (and I could be wrong) Paula Yeats had been dipressed for a while (as a result of the death of MH), and at the time of her death she had a few different drugs in her system (a speedball - heroin and coke at the same time, as far as I remember). Most of her frineds were stunned, as they thought she was unhappy, but not *that* unhappy. They thought she had come thru the worst ans was getting back together.

But one of her kids found her, for that alone I would not forgive her - dead or not, and whatever her reasons.

Stephen

Apparently there's mass ranting and calls for McDaid's resignation over this. I think that is utter bullsh1t. The man is entitled to an opinion.

Bard

Originally posted by Stephen
Apparently there's mass ranting and calls for McDaid's resignation over this. I think that is utter bullsh1t. The man is entitled to an opinion.

eh? resignation from what? The Dail has been dissolved - they're all currently out of jobs pending the results of the election in May.

I'd just like to make the point that I haven't, in fact, expressed an opinion on the matter, despite what some people have said to me (on IRC).

BuffyBot

Originally posted by Stephen
Apparently there's mass ranting and calls for McDaid's resignation over this. I think that is utter bullsh1t. The man is entitled to an opinion.

Yes, I don't think that is in dispute, but he picked a damn stupid time and place to voice it - and as a politician, he should know that somethings are better left unsaid

smiles

Originally posted by BuffyBoy
Yes, I don't think that is in dispute, but he picked a damn stupid time and place to voice it - and as a politician, he should know that somethings are better left unsaid

As he is a politician he isn't allowed to have loud opinions?

He is as much entitled to his views as anyone else, if not more so, he is *meant* to speak out and voice things.

<< Fio >>

saik

like le pen is entitled to opinions, and hitler too. they had *loud* opinions. some opinions are worth keeping to yourself, and this is one of them.

some things are better left unsaid.

and if he were to voice them, we would only find out that he is a cold insensitive git. i'm sure he wishes he didn't voice his opinion.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by saik
like le pen is entitled to opinions, and hitler too. they had *loud* opinions. some opinions are worth keeping to yourself, and this is one of them.

I don't think you should be allowed to express your opinion. Or breed.

some things are better left unsaid.

Your comments being a case in point.

BuffyBot

Originally posted by smiles


As he is a politician he isn't allowed to have loud opinions?

He is as much entitled to his views as anyone else, if not more so, he is *meant* to speak out and voice things.

<< Fio >>

I didn't say he couldn't have loud, quiet or any other kind of opinions. He can think whatsoever he likes!

However, he, as a public figure, should of realised how hurtful some people were likely to find them and therefore voiced them at a more appropriate time (rather than at a conference involving suicide issues). There is a line between contraversial (which he was trying to be) and insensitive (which is how he came across)

zenith

I'm not going to be a selfish b*stard.
When I commmit suicide, I'm going to take you all with me.

sam

blah blah abuse.

The Corinthian

abuse deleted.

mike65

Rather than have a go at McDaid its worth recalling that the comments were made in an esentially prviate context with no media present before the election had been called, the meeting was about the suicide and he was giving his reaction to the thoughts of an angry bereved mother.

Then some smart-arse decided this could be used against
McDaid in the election, and some hack reckoned it would be good copy (are'nt journalists scum of the earth? ).

McDaid simply said out loud what many have thought on occasion,
especially upon hearing stories like that one a few years ago, when the father killed his two children by drowning them in a car
then he went off to Wales and killed himself.

That was selfish, though the father proberly thought he was saving them a life of anguish.

Mike.

Lolo

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND

But if person x is very unhappy somewhere in rural Ireland. In many cases they have brothers or sisters and maybe if they are lucky both parents will still be alive. They get to the point where they think they have no other option. Now lets say they do it, either on the spur of the moment, or after a while planning it. They have not thought about the effect it has on their family.

That's not true, they've probably considered it very carefully and decided that their loved ones are better off without them.

Blitzkrieger

Here's some thoughts on 'Why people commit suicide' :



quote:

---

From an ariticle by Phil MacGiolla Bhain, Magill magazine Nov. 2000

I believe it is because this social phenomenon is happening outside the main social policy paradigm in this State. That paradigm is a feminist one.
All current Irish social policy is based on the template of feminism. In the 1970s, women's groups, in angry opposition to the then status quo, constructed their paradigm, and today, akthough themselves being long ensconced in power, they continue to behave as a beleaguered oppposition fighting for themselves only.
It's no coincidence that the Health Boards were set up in 1970. The generations of unpaid religious who had provided the State with a rudimentary social service were at the end of their working life and it was clear that they would not be replaced in similar numbers from the seminaries and the convents. In the early decades of the Irish State the impoverished Dublin regime had happily relied on the free labour of the Catholic Church to provide the social infrastrucure underpinning Irish family life. It was an Irish solution to an Irish problem. Not only did the Irish Catholic Church provide a rudimentary service to the Free State, but it also advised goverments and citizens on how to live their lives. The Church had developed a clientelist relationship with it's flock's British overloards and had been given the franchise contract by Dublin Castle to control the native home and heart through manipulation and control of women. Mother Church quickly changed horses from denouncing the leaders of the Rising to being social as well as spiritual adviser to the new Irish State.
When this model began to disintegrate in the 1970s, the Irish Stare needed a new social policy and a new paradigm. We had the option of creating a genuinely native social policy to suit our own needs. Instead, we in effect bought one off the shelf from American academe. That social policy paradigm stated that women were oppressed and that state agencies had a duty in all things and at all times to intervene to protect and empower women.
Thus, the erstwhile dispossessed have become the establishment in all areas of social policy.
These are the glory days for the misandristic elite which run this State's social policy. The belief system of this elite permeates every interaction where social policy is exercised. This affects the awarding of research grants and the drawing up of legislation, the funding of all social intiatives and the implementation of social policy on the ground. All strategic and administrative decisions are made upon the premise that women are the primary vulnerable group in Irish society, and women, not men, require care and protection. If there is a gender issue to be addressed by social policy intervention or the provision of better state services it is always to be directed at women.
There is, of course, a corollary to this: men are OK, have no problems. Men don't suffer.
Within such a paradigm, massive male suicide statistics do not compute. In fact, the male suicide figures present an appalling vista to the current orthodoxy within the State's social policy make-up. Far better that young men continue to die by their own hand than for us to believe that the entire paradigm is wrong. The best that Irish feminism can come up with to explain this embarrassing body count is that men are violent and some men are violent to themselves. Tell it to the bereaved parents of our young men, who would appear by the very decision of suicide to be somewhat more sensitive than they are violent.
Young men are told at every turn that women have a noble cause in fighting for their "liberation" from omipotent, oppressive males. The reality of these young mens' lives is that they see themselves surrounded by confident professional women and pillowed, powerless men. The background music is at odds with the experienced material reality of their lives. To that confusion add the "Wimp/Bastard" double bind. This is the deadly Hobson's choice that a popular culture with a feminised logic offers young men: you are damned if you behave like a man and even more damned if you don't.

---

quote:

---

From an ariticle by Phil MacGiolla Bhain, Magill magazine Nov. 2000

Minutes before he took his own life in the early hours of the morning, a young Donegal man phoned his boss. Quite rationally he apologised to his boss for the damage he was about to inflict upon the delivery van. Nothing in his speech or thinking in that conversation would indicate that he was suffering from a major metal disorder. He was rational.

---

Selfish?

Lolo

That might go some way to explain why some young men commit suicide (although I have my doubts), but what about women?

sam

explain to me how my last post was abusive please.

if "twat" is an abusive word, then why isnt it blocked by the censor? since it wasnt, i assumed it wasnt 'abusive'..

i was making a point, that 'some opinions are better left unvoiced', eg. my 'opinion' that 'corinthian is a <insert non-abusive derogatory word here>'
without ever having met him or knowing anything of him apart from this thread.

can the moderator of this board please NOT panic when he gets a thread reported, and instantly delete it? thanks

The Corinthian

Originally posted by sam
i was making a point, that 'some opinions are better left unvoiced', eg. my 'opinion' that 'corinthian is a <insert non-abusive derogatory word here>'

Certainly didn't come across as that.

Sounded like a fairly straight muppetish attack, to which I retorted in kind. Then both were deleted. Life goes on.

You shouldn't really bother appealing a ruling by the moderator formerly known as Castor Troy. No point.

amp

Don't bother appealing to us either. Personal attacks are not tolerated. Talk about wether Suicide is cowardly or face lockage.

ykt0di9url7bc3

for my friends, i never look for reasons for anything they do, if a friend helps me or hinders me, i never look for a reason, it doesnt change what happened, i feal happy or sad nevertheless ( yes i hide it well Azezil)

suicide victims, well are victims, people that needed help, wheter you think it is selfish or not it doesnt change anything...


DONT SPEAK ILL OF THE DEAD

Kalina

Somebody who commits suicide isn't necessarrily selfish, they are just confused and emotional and most of the time they musn't really realise what the consequences of their decision is.

Kalina

Though of course when somebody makes that decision sometimes it is a calculated and long-planned decision so maybe they have thought it through.
Who know's what somebody thinks when they do it.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Kalina
A suicide victim isn't selfish because in my opinion they don't realise the full consequences of their actions.

Neither does a sociopath, technically – so that alone is not the best argument in the World really.

Slider

Although this is quite a debatable topic I have gotta admit that I agree with Dr McDaid's comment to an extent.

A small minority of those who commit suicide do not think about their actions, and generally have no respect for those who love and care for them. These people, in this respect are selfish b@$t@rds.