Do any of the parties plan to take Ireland out of the euro?

bobsmith833

This is not an opinion, I'm just interested if it's even a policy for any of the parties?

koneko

Doubt it very much, unless they're completely backwards.

bobsmith833

Originally posted by koneko
Doubt it very much, unless they're completely backwards.

Well maybe some people think it represents an unacceptable loss of sovereignty? I don't know.

I think that may be a view held by some people in Britain and that Monsieur Le Pen man in France (although obviously his views are very nonstandard).

Victor

I was thinking "oh, what a stupid question!" then I realised that both Sinn Féin and the Green Party have had similar policies.

Sand

Some people might feel that the loss of monetary control is the bigger problem- especially the question "Apart from panic, what will we do if/when the Sterling should ever significantly depreciate against the Euro given we do about a third of our trade with the UK". Its a valid concern given the fact the UK manufacturers want to enter the Euro (if at all) at .67 sterling to the euro, from its current rate:x

Id doubt any of the main parties have gone that far away from their pro-european stances though. Neither is the abandonment of the Euro the only way to "fix" the above risk.

Elmo

Ian Pasiley also disagrees with the euro, but for different reason to those of Sinn Fein. According to himself.

The Greens disagree with the euro, interesting.

Are all the coin too small and do they all look a like, have any of the parties any views on this.

Also in 2016, 2022, 2032 and 2049 will we get special Euro Coin in Celebration of Ireland. (If you know your history you'll know what the dates mean).

the only bad thing about the euro is that if it goes bad, no one will ever trust the EU again, I think we need europe for a lot of things i would be foolish not to say that, but we need not go too far with it. We have come far enough, but other countries should be allowed join with their own conditions, just as we did.

Chaos-Engine

The only way for the EURO to be a true success is if it is followed with True Economic Union. While we have a currency that is accepted in 12 of the 15 Eu countries we still have vast differences in our economies.
e.g. German and France have rising unemployment figures. Ireland on the other hand has High-Skill shortages. In a true economic union the unemployed High-skilled workers in France adn Gerany would travel to Ireland and take the job vacancies. Thus being mobile and proventing Cost-Push inflation taking hold and lowering Irish competitivness....

Another problem which is well documented but crucial... The exchange rate with the Dollar and Sterling. Especially the Dollar. Irish business needs to export MOre and more to other EU countries to avoid this exchange risk which has actually increased since joining the EURO. Now in the last two weeks the EURO has made Large(stable) gains on the Dollar to over $0.90 and its still climbing. Now I'm no yanker lover, but this is serious trouble. Almost all of our high-tech IT exports (90%) go to the US. With rising Euro/Dollar... The US firms resident her would be better off producing in their domestic market.

Victor

Originally posted by Elmo
Are all the coin too small and do they all look a like, have any of the parties any views on this.

??? I don't think so.

Originally posted by Elmo
Also in 2016, 2022, 2032 and 2049 will we get special Euro Coin in Celebration of Ireland. (If you know your history you'll know what the dates mean).

Who knows? We only have about 14 years to work it out. I understand that The Netherlands did issue one coin to celebrate a royal wedding (but it has limited status). What are the significances of the dates? (I can guess the centenary of 1916)

Originally posted by Elmo
the only bad thing about the euro is that if it goes bad, no one will ever trust the EU again, I think we need europe for a lot of things i would be foolish not to say that, but we need not go too far with it.

It won't go 'bad' - it will have ups and downs, the is the nature of currencies, but remember there are hundreds of millions of people behind it.

Originally posted by Elmo
We have come far enough, but other countries should be allowed join with their own conditions, just as we did.

The Euro or the EU?

Victor

Originally posted by Chaos-Engine
Now I'm no yanker lover, but this is serious trouble. Almost all of our high-tech IT exports (90%) go to the US. With rising Euro/Dollar... The US firms resident her would be better off producing in their domestic market.

Not necessarily, commercial considerations, import duties and corporation tax dictate otherwise. Of exports in February 2002, we exported €2,756m to non-EU states (€2,455m 'high tech') of which €1,345 was to the USA. However, 60% of our exports are still with the EU (approximately €8,000m per month).

http://www.cso.ie/publications/extrade/tneu.pdf
http://www.cso.ie/publications/extrade/extrade.pdf
http://eirestat.cso.ie/diska/TSAM101.html

Dustaz

Originally posted by Elmo

Also in 2016, 2022, 2032 and 2049 will we get special Euro Coin in Celebration of Ireland. (If you know your history you'll know what the dates mean).
.

Dont we control what is printed on one side of the coins? We can just mint the celebratory pattern on one side, as we used to do all along.

Elmo

Other countries should be allowed join the EU in their own time without having to join the Euro, Just like Britain and Denmark(I know they are thinking about joining the Euro now, but they can make up their own minds about that.).

As for the dates
Well yes There is 1916 (easter rising)

then 1922 the treaty was signed,
Then 1932 when we dropped the oath to the Queen (with a new constitution)
Then 1949 we became a republic(We didn't get one for 1999???, i know the mill pound coin).
Suppose we will have to have one for 1973 to so.

The coin are tiny and annoying i find i have more coin hanging around more now then with the punt and the 1, 2 and 10 cent peices are so small i hate fidgeting around to get the out of my pocket so i just collect them until they build up (and give them to dublin bus just to annoy the Arrogent Dublin Bus Drivers, Exact coinage and all), It would be better for ciculation of the coin if the were about the size of the punt coins. And they are so boring, as are the notes.

Elmo

Dunstan

A special 10 Shilling coin was minted for the 1966 celebration with p. pearce on one side and cuculan (spelling?) on the other, nice coin too. It replace the 10 shilling note. Was not liked be may for payment as they prefered the note but many colleted it the as memorabilia.

Victor

Elmo, can you get back on track with the topic. None of this affects current politics, the General Election or party manifestos. take it up in politics / business if you want.

Elmo

Questions Where asked about my previous post i was just explaining myself.

One of the reason to get out of the Euro would be nationalist reasons which i have mention above, that relates to the question being asked.

Another reason would be the size of the coins they are too small IMO, and others have also stated this to me.

The question itself does not effect

current politics, the General Election or party manifestos.

As no manifesto actuall has said anything about it. THAT I KNOW OF. either to remain or not to remain a part of the euro

Jorinn

Originally posted by bobsmith833
This is not an opinion, I'm just interested if it's even a policy for any of the parties?

Well read a while ago that he grees want local currencies, i.e. one for West Dublin, one for Cork etc. Then again that Patricia McKenna one seems like a bit of a nutter so I shouldn't be suprised if she came up with it.

Victor

Originally posted by Jorinn
Well read a while ago that he grees want local currencies, i.e. one for West Dublin, one for Cork etc.

I understand that has been revised, but see http://www.greenparty.ie/Manifesto/firstpag.htm (I haven't read it)

simon_partridge

Originally posted by Elmo
Then 1932 when we dropped the oath to the Queen (with a new constitution)

Gosh, that was very late given that in 1932 the UK hadn't had a Queen for 31 years...

bonkey

Originally posted by Elmo
the only bad thing about the euro is that if it goes bad, no one will ever trust the EU again,

Originally posted by Chaos-Engine
The only way for the EURO to be a true success is if it is followed with True Economic Union.
...
Another problem which is well documented but crucial... The exchange rate with the Dollar and Sterling. Especially the Dollar.

And here we have two diametrically opposed ideas.

On one hand, the Euro "going bad" will screw the EU. On the other hand, the Euro doing well relative to other currencies will screw the EU.

Gosh - guess we just want an "ok Euro" then.....

What no-one mentions is that the exact same logic applied to the Irish Currency when we had it. None of this is particular to the Euro.

As for the so-called loss of soverignty - I fail to see the point of this.

I place no national identity on a piece of paper or the artwork on it. Maybe I'm in the minority, but honestly....what is so "nationalistic" about a currency?

Hell, I remember the national outcry at the design of the last set of Irish currency we had. The coins were too small, the art was horrible, they had no "character" compared to the old currency....blah blah blah. Basically - the same arguments most people use against the Euro.

Its not that people dont want the Euro, they just dont want any change.

Sand raises what I feel is the major discomfort - that we have a European currency, but our economies are still largely nationalistic. In short - they are decoupled which introduces risks and problems.

However, as he also pointed out, abandonment of the Euro is not the only way (nor necessarily the best way) to remove this risk.

What I always find amusing is that those who are anti-Euro only ever tell us why we shouldnt have the new currency. I have yet to see someone offer the pros, the cons, and then conclude that the best option would be to not have the Euro.

Again - maybe thats just me.


Getting back on topic - do any parties have it in their manifesto? I very much doubt it, because while it may win you some votes from the staunchly anti-Euro, that group is day-by-day shrinking as people get used to the "new" currency.

Ultimately, it would be a bad political move. With the remaining "non-Euro" EU nations considering when rather than if they will join, we would soon find ourselves out on a limb if we did drop out. If anyone this believes this would be better for the economy than being "in the club", I have yet to see a good argument for it.

jc

mike65

This is a non-thread methinks, even if the unthinkable happened and we got a green/Green government they'd soon have a rethink. The currency valuation issue applies equally to all
currencies and there is no such thing as an ideal value for any currency, it just depends what you want, cheap ports/expensive exports or the other way round, even thats not the end of it as raw materials are sometimes imported for products made here which are then exported back to the country from which the raw materials came!

And so on...as for exposure to the UK and US markets, thats easy to fix. Do less business with them and more with fellow EuroZone
markets. e.g. Do we need to import computer add-ons from the UK?

Mike.

sceptre

Originally posted by simon_partridge

Gosh, that was very late given that in 1932 the UK hadn't had a Queen for 31 years...

Oath was dropped in 1933 - the Constitution (Removal of Orath) Act became law on May 3, 1933. New constitution was 1937. The only thing that happened in 1932 was that FF made up a government by going into coalition with Labour. Doubt that will be much of a massive cause for commemoration.
(sorry for the OT post)

bonkey and Sand have raised pretty much all the issues. With the adoption of the euro the main thing we've lost is fiscal control, which would be a major problem in the event of an assymetric economic shock. This was a major issue I raised in a project I did a few years back. The problem is that the ECB don't have the same ability to give aid to particular areas that the US Federal bank do. However, unlike the US, the EU doesn't have major industries congregating in small areas (such as the US auto industry around Detroit), so assymetric shocks are unlikely to be a major problem.

bobsmith833

Well you can stuff your smelly euro and the tinpot economies that make it up.

I think the UK will never sign up to that cräp, but if Blair does force us into it I will commit suicide.

I wouldn't even wipe my ârse with those new notes.

bonkey

Originally posted by bobsmith833
Well you can stuff your smelly euro and the tinpot economies that make it up.

Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves...

Oh - no - wait. It doesnt. And the sun *does* set on the British Empire now.

Has it occurred to you that some of those "tinpot" economies are larger than the UKs?

I think the UK will never sign up to that cräp, but if Blair does force us into it I will commit suicide.

Youre probably safe. I expect Britain wont sign up during Blair's reign, so when they eventually do sign up, you'll have the safety net of saying that you only promised to off yourself if Blair did it.

Sheesh - talk about blind nationalism. "Forget what may be best for the country....the figures and symbols printed on a piece of paper are far more important".

jc

JustHalf

Originally posted by sceptre
<<snip>>

There was a king in power in the 30's, which is what he was saying.

sceptre

Originally posted by JustHalf
There was a king in power in the 30's, which is what he was saying.

Yeah, I quoted the wrong person for some unfathomable reason.

I should have quoted Elmo instead so post still stands (but still apologised for the OT post).

Richard

Originally posted by bonkey

Has it occurred to you that some of those "tinpot" economies are larger than the UKs?

They aren't

The UK is the world's fourth largest economy. I think it is the second biggest in the EU after Germany. So there are arguments for going in or staying. It is not as clear cut as it was for Ireland.

But the UK will probably be a member within 10 years.

smiles

I think the UK will join the Euro within 5 years, and when they do it'll be a good boost for the Euro in general.

Yes we loose competitiveness as the Euro gets stronger -- but I honestly think that we need to cop on as a country.

People are getting wage rises above the agreed figures in the PPF, just because inflation is so high. My biggest problem with this is that they are going on the monthly inflation figures and not on the yearly ones and ths is causing a wage/price/inflation spiral.

More competition/reducing our competitiveness may force some people to actually work enough to make our economy grow properly again.

<< Fio >>

Richard

Originally posted by smiles
I think the UK will join the Euro within 5 years, and when they do it'll be a good boost for the Euro in general.

And it will help Ireland. Much of ROI's trade is with the UK and also, since Ireland's economy is similar to the UK, it would weight the exchange rate and general Eurozone economy more in favour of Ireland.

Typedef

Originally posted by smiles
I think the UK will join the Euro within 5 years, and when they do it'll be a good boost for the Euro in general.

Yes we loose competitiveness as the Euro gets stronger -- but I honestly think that we need to cop on as a country.

People are getting wage rises above the agreed figures in the PPF, just because inflation is so high. My biggest problem with this is that they are going on the monthly inflation figures and not on the yearly ones and ths is causing a wage/price/inflation spiral.

More competition/reducing our competitiveness may force some people to actually work enough to make our economy grow properly again.

<< Fio >>

Nonesense.

One of the primary ways a government can control inflation is the setting of interest rates. Since the Europen Central Bank decides the interest rates that apply to Ireland, and this interest rate is currently set such that it will benefit our benavolent 'partners' France and Germany(who's economies are in 'slow down'), the primary and greatest axe Ireland's government had to wield vis-a-vis inflation in this economy has been relocated to the Europeans.

You seem to be suggesting that I should make less money, which is a misnomer considering I not paid well for the Programming and Sysadmin I do right now. If Ireland's government had not ceeded away the ability to change it's own interest rates, it would be a fact that Ireland would have already changed it's interest rates and inflation would not be as seemingly rampant as it is. Thus Ireland and Irish workers (ie me) are paying through inhibited wage expectation realisation so that basically Germany and France the 3rd and 5th largest economies in the world have a better chance of rectifying their ailing economies. Umm excuse me while I don't give a rats about the French or the Germans, I do give a rats about Ireland and currently participation in the Euro means high interest rates for Ireland and is ultimately damaging Ireland's economy.

Let's be clear, the Irish worker and tax payer is not the cause of high inflation in Ireland, the culprit is the European Central Bank.

Ireland should have done as the UK did and remained within the Eurozone, without experimenting with the Irish economy in the name of a grand Pan-European socio-political experiment.

So much for the EU being to the benefit of all the citizens in it, from where I sit and where my wallet sits, the EU really seems to be benefiting ye olde Frano-German alliance. Funny that, I mean I realise Ireland is no longer a colony, who's economic interests get stuck into second place by a foreign and undemocratic power who has little to no interest in enhancing the quality of Irish life, because hey, we broke with England a long time ago, so it's ok. In fact it must be all those whingers who are breaking the Program for Prosperity and Fairness hmm? I mean who the hell do they think they are demanding enough money to buy luxurious things like a roof over their head or food?

I'll just skulk off to the shop now and read the headlines telling me how it is that wage expectations are the cause of high inflation here, not the high interest rates and lament the fact that because my wage expectations are so high, I can't afford to by the paper hmm?

I do have to give you points on competitiveness within this economy though, but probably not as you mean. I mean benchmarking, it's a farce. In the realworld, people like me have this thing called 'performance related pay', which means that my company doesn't just pay my wage because other programmers get (something like) the same wage, it means I do my job well or I get paid less.

The notion that an individual is evaluated on the type of job they do instead of their performance within that job is totally shocking. It leads to apathy in your job because you get the same wage whether you do that job well or not and for me benchmarking sums up what is wrong with successive governments in Ireland.
State interference in business, just like the Euro born of political instead of economic impetus, Big brother central government insisting on using "Tax payers" money to build a second terminal in Dublin Airport when Ryanair were falling overthemselves to cough up. Big brother introducing benchmarking instead of performance related pay. Billions invested in new road infrastructure when not a finger is lifted to legislate to make companies liable for the refilling work they botch regularly in every corner of this state.

What a joke, hardworking Irish workers are the cause of inflation, utter tripe, you want to play the blame game, look no further then Wim Duisenberg, head of the European Central Bank.

smiles

Originally posted by Typedef

One of the primary ways a government can control inflation is the setting of interest rates. Since the Europen Central Bank decides the interest rates that apply to Ireland, and this interest rate is currently set such that it will benefit our benavolent 'partners' France and Germany(who's economies are in 'slow down'), the primary and greatest axe Ireland's government had to wield vis-a-vis inflation in this economy has been relocated to the Europeans

hence the reasoning behind the Special Savings Schemes. Changing interest rates would help inflation at the moment, but I think the need for a European chip at the gambling table is a much great asset than low inflation.

You seem to be suggesting that I should make less money, which is a misnomer considering I not paid well for the Programming and Sysadmin I do right now. If Ireland's government had not ceeded away the ability to change it's own interest rates, it would be a fact that Ireland would have already changed it's interest rates and inflation would not be as seemingly rampant as it is. Thus Ireland and Irish workers (ie me) are paying through inhibited wage expectation realisation so that basically Germany and France the 3rd and 5th largest economies in the world have a better chance of rectifying their ailing economies. Umm excuse me while I don't give a rats about the French or the Germans, I do give a rats about Ireland and currently participation in the Euro means high interest rates for Ireland and is ultimately damaging Ireland's economy.

Right, your definition of well-paid is in relation to the current cost of living, i put it that the cost of living would not be so high were it not for ex-orbitant wage demands.

Let's be clear, the Irish worker and tax payer is not the cause of high inflation in Ireland, the culprit is the European Central Bank.

I'll just skulk off to the shop now and read the headlines telling me how it is that wage expectations are the cause of high inflation here, not the high interest rates and lament the fact that because my wage expectations are so high, I can't afford to by the paper hmm?

You're complaining about the high interest rate.... how do you plan on cutting inflation by changing it? High inflation rates should discourage borrowing and encourage saving and hence cut demand pull inflation (or at least thats what the experts say) : What are your miracle suggestions?

Big brother central government insisting on using "Tax payers" money to build a second terminal in Dublin Airport when Ryanair were falling overthemselves to cough up. Big brother introducing benchmarking instead of performance related pay. Billions invested in new road infrastructure when not a finger is lifted to legislate to make companies liable for the refilling work they botch regularly in every corner of this state.

What a joke, hardworking Irish workers are the cause of inflation, utter tripe, you want to play the blame game, look no further then Wim Duisenberg, head of the European Central Bank.

So you suggest letting RyanAir build the new terminal and establish a duopoly between them and AerLingus..... lovely, that'll really help us in years to come when we *need* independant and cheap flights. :rolleyes:

Our infrastructure is one of the main causes for our restricted growth and the problems of traffic around Dublin (in particular), report after report has shown that our infrastrusture is virtually stone age and that companies specifically avoid Ireland because of the logistical problems within the country.

Do you like the blame game so much that you're afraid to actually consider the idea that higher wages is not necessarily a good thing?

Blame games are easy, I'd love high wages, and yet I'd prefer a good stable economy.

<< Fio >>

Typedef

Originally posted by smiles
hence the reasoning behind the Special Savings Schemes. Changing interest rates would help inflation at the moment, but I think the need for a European chip at the gambling table is a much great asset than low inflation.

Unfortunately the Savings Scheme is not encouraging enough people to save, quite obviously if the scheme is designed to curb inflation, it hasn't worked. In years gone by, before our benavolent leaders decided to experiment with this country's economy to participate in the Euro, the interest rates would have been reset by the Irish Central Bank. Problem solved.
Mostly the EU exists to prevent another war in Europe. Why must this country suffer economically so that mainland European country's can stop their own petty squabbeling?
Please don't bang the structural fund drum, the drum that spews the same old progaganda about Ireland being a suck on Europe, because it's just not true. The CAP actually prohibits development of the Irish farming industry, by paying Irish farmers 'not' to produce, and of course the EU dictates how much it thinks our farmers 'would' be able to produce if the EU let them. Ireland has the sixth largest dariy industry in the world and I would postulate that without having to operate within the restrictions of the CAP Ireland would most likely be an even bigger agri player.
Take the fishing of Irish waters by Spanish fishermen, even if you don't accept the figure of €14 billion worth of fish being extracted from Irish seas each year since 1973 by the Spanish and put the figure at a pithe €1 billion, that still amounts to €29 billion as opposed to the €20 billion in structural funds Ireland has recieved since ascession to the EU.

You are quite right though, what Ireland gains from 'limted' EU membership is access to core European markets without importation tarifs and so on. There is a real difference between being a member of a free trade zone, and being participant of a single currency. The Euro trade zone is great for the Irish economy, but the Euro is causing high inflation and basically the argument in favour of the Euro is a political not an economic one. Here is the crunch for me. I don't care if the Europeans want to drop bombs on each other, really, let them, that is why I don't see merit in European political Union, yes I accept that free trade is a benefit to Ireland, whilst quite clearly the political element is damaging to the Irish economy and ultimately through farces like the re-run of the Nice referendum damaging to Irish democracy and Sovereignty.

Right, your definition of well-paid is in relation to the current cost of living, i put it that the cost of living would not be so high were it not for ex-orbitant wage demands.

Yes wage demands are a factor and so are interest rates and since Ireland has ceeded away the ability to affect it's own interest rates that means what, that because France and Germany need high interest rates that I should be prepaired to be offered less money by my empolyers? Somehow I think you are going to have a hard time swinging that one with me.

You're complaining about the high interest rate.... how do you plan on cutting inflation by changing it?

I think Ireland should follow the example of the UK and Sweden, back track a little bit, and ceceed from the Euro. The Euro is not good for the Irish economy, it is a political experiment, an experiment Ireland need not participate in to the detrament of Irish people and the standards of living of Irish citizens like me.

So you suggest letting RyanAir build the new terminal and establish a duopoly between them and AerLingus

Yes I suggest letting RyanAir spend X hundred million on a new terminal and why not? The government is protecting Aer Lingus right now and Aer Lingus is not making money, it's costing money, not only is it costing money, but the government is spending tax payers money, my money on building a new terminal, when RyanAir is quite perpaired to spend RyanAir's money on it. A duopoly, considering the kind of competition RyanAir has to contend with from this state's antiquted and protectionist attitude, I'm quite surprised any indegenous industry ever managed to take root. Even now people within the state's air industry are calling for deregulation and delegation of powers to regional authorities such that Shannon & Cork airports get to call the shots on how Shannon & Cork airports get run, or in otherwords the guys running said airports want big government to butt out and as is demonstrated by the debacle with RyanAir and the second terminal in Dublin Airport, butting out is the last thing the politicos will ever do.

..... lovely, that'll really help us in years to come when we *need* independant and cheap flights. :rolleyes:

A friend of mine traveled to Scotland and back in December of last year for IRL£20 with RyanAir. I can probably proove this if need be.

Our infrastructure is one of the main causes for our restricted growth and the problems of traffic around Dublin (in particular), report after report has shown that our infrastrusture is virtually stone age and that companies specifically avoid Ireland because of the logistical problems within the country.

Definately, I agree with you here, I'd like to see government pass a law such that the companies who dig up the road and fill it in, will be held responsible for the job they do and will be made to fix the jobs that are quite evidently botched. This would be such a simple law to pass, and I believe it would have the same kind of effect passing the law on plastic bags had. Clearly if compnies who dig up the road for reason (n) and fill it in are held accountable for the work done, the state will not have to take on the burdon of resurfacing the roads to fix botched refilling jobs and can divert resources to fixing the scandelously delapaded roads around the hinterland of the greater Dublin Area.

Blame games are easy, I'd love high wages, and yet I'd prefer a good stable economy.

I'd like the economy to be based on economics instead of Federalist Socio-Political experiments.

bertiebowl

Lads it a little academic as to whether any party has a policy to leave the Euro.

Charlie McCreevy has (foolishly) spent the former Central Bank Foreign Exchange reserves to plug holes in the budget.

We can't afford to leave the Euro now - we have no choice but to stay in.

Regarding inflation and the Euro, while we ceded control of interest rates to the ECB in Frankfurt, ireland maintained control over demand side inflation.

But once again Chazza McCreepy made a horrible mistake of lashing out massive increases in public spending on top of tax cuts and high wages growth.

No wonder we have high inflation.

photty

Originally posted by Chaos-Engine
Ireland on the other hand has High-Skill shortages. In a true economic union the unemployed High-skilled workers in France adn Gerany would travel to Ireland and take the job vacancies. Thus being mobile and proventing Cost-Push inflation taking hold and lowering Irish competitivness....

Slightly off topic but which alternate reality is that Ireland in? Just the other day a mate of mine went for an interview for an embedded sw job and was offered 20 euro an hour for the contract. The job sites list the same jobs month after month. Theres plenty of highly skilled people around who just can't get the work in IT/SW/dare I say it.. telecoms. Employers are starting to take the piss a bit really but then again didn't we when the times were good?

Meh

Originally posted by Typedef
Please don't bang the structural fund drum, the drum that spews the same old progaganda about Ireland being a suck on Europe, because it's just not true.

So the EU hasn't given billions of euros to this country? Those blue and gold flags you see on every bypass in the country don't have anything to do with Brussels?

The CAP actually prohibits development of the Irish farming industry, by paying Irish farmers 'not' to produce, and of course the EU dictates how much it thinks our farmers 'would' be able to produce if the EU let them. Ireland has the sixth largest dariy industry in the world and I would postulate that without having to operate within the restrictions of the CAP Ireland would most likely be an even bigger agri player.

I agree with you that the CAP sucks, and should be scrapped as soon as possible. Irish farmers have benefited from it; but Irish consumers haven't.

Take the fishing of Irish waters by Spanish fishermen, even if you don't accept the figure of €14 billion worth of fish being extracted from Irish seas each year since 1973 by the Spanish and put the figure at a pithe €1 billion, that still amounts to €29 billion as opposed to the €20 billion in structural funds Ireland has recieved since ascession to the EU.

That figure may be accurate, but I doubt that Irish fisherman would have extracted anywhere near €29 billion worth of fish from Irish seas. Ireland has a relatively small fishing industry compared to Spain. So Ireland hasn't lost this €29 billion; we wouldn't have been able to exploit it in the first place.

Typedef

That figure may be accurate, but I doubt that Irish fisherman would have extracted anywhere near €29 billion worth of fish from Irish seas.

Utter nonesense Meh. As I point out below Ireland is allowed only 4% of the catches under the Common Fisheries policy, whilst having 11% of the water. And yes I do contend that if the EU were not dictating to Ireland the amount of Ireland's own fish stocks that can be exploited to Irelands benefit, that Ireland could quite easily invest in (n) fishing boats such that Ireland might extract the billions from Irish waters that other EU nations are currently expoliting.

Why would you contend that Irish fishsermen couldn't extract just as much fish from Irish fishing waters if the EU weren't dictating how much Ireland can exploit it's own natural resources? Is there some etheral reason Irish fishermen are incapable of performing this task?

Postulate, get loan from IMF, buy fishing boats, fish Irish fishing waters to their full extent, make money selling fish on European markets, why would this be beyond the scope or abilities of Irish fishermen?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2001/0619/fisheries.html

Despite owning 11% of total waters within the European Community, the European Union's Common Fisheries Policy only allows Ireland 4% of catches. This inequity is a result of accession negotiations in the Seventies and is at the root of Ireland's fishing industry problems. European Union partner countries take an estimated £200m of fish from Irish waters every year, but they are neither willing to give up on those huge earnings nor to allow Irish fishermen to take more fish from Irish waters.

So umm excuse me Ireland is allowed 4% of catches from a total sea area of 11%. Added to which Irish farmers a paid 'not to produce', and who is to say 'how big' the Irish farming industry would be without dictats from the EU on what it will and won't pay for what 'it' estimates Irish agricultural potential to produce is?

No no, too often this drum of structural funding is banged, mostly by the Germans and Dutch, who envy the robustness of the Irish tiger economy, and too often is it forgotten that there is a trade off as Ireland agrees to curtail agricultural activity and agrees to take a paupers share of our own natural resources.

Quid pro quo.

Meh

Originally posted by Typedef
Utter nonesense Meh. As I point out below Ireland is allowed only 4% of the catches under the Common Fisheries policy, whilst having 11% of the water. And yes I do contend that if the EU were not dictating to Ireland the amount of Ireland's own fish stocks that can be exploited to Irelands benefit, that Ireland could quite easily invest in (n) fishing boats such that Ireland might extract the billions from Irish waters that other EU nations are currently expoliting.

I agree. Without EU quotas, Irish fishermen would have made a lot more money. But to say that Spain has taken €29 billion (a figure which isn't supported by the RTE article you quoted, by the way) out of the pockets of Irish fisherman is pure speculation.

You win some, you lose some. On balance, EU membership is beneficial for this country.

smiles

Unfortunately the Savings Scheme is not encouraging enough people to save, quite obviously if the scheme is designed to curb inflation, it hasn't worked. In years gone by, before our benavolent leaders decided to experiment with this country's economy to participate in the Euro, the interest rates would have been reset by the Irish Central Bank. Problem solved.

Excuse my assumptions, but it seems that you've some grudge against the current government and you cannot see the good in anything that they do, or am I mistaken?

Mostly the EU exists to prevent another war in Europe. Why must this country suffer economically so that mainland European country's can stop their own petty squabbeling?

Actually, the United Nations was set up to do that. The EC was set up to help that, but it did evolve along the way to focus on economic union, and to encourage the growth of all the countries.

Please don't bang the structural fund drum, the drum that spews the same old progaganda about Ireland being a suck on Europe, because it's just not true. The CAP actually prohibits development of the Irish farming industry, by paying Irish farmers 'not' to produce, and of course the EU dictates how much it thinks our farmers 'would' be able to produce if the EU let them. Ireland has the sixth largest dariy industry in the world and I would postulate that without having to operate within the restrictions of the CAP Ireland would most likely be an even bigger agri player.

If there was no CAP then Irish farmers would be totally out of the market as they are incredibly inefficient and are easily undercut by other countries. I agree that *some* of the aspects of it need to be reviewed, but i'm not blindsighted enough to just throw away the good with the bad because of some anti-European sentiments.

Here is the crunch for me. I don't care if the Europeans want to drop bombs on each other, really, let them, that is why I don't see merit in European political Union, yes I accept that free trade is a benefit to Ireland, whilst quite clearly the political element is damaging to the Irish economy and ultimately through farces like the re-run of the Nice referendum damaging to Irish democracy and Sovereignty.

You see some of have problems with accepting the results of a referendum that had virtually no turn out and did not represent the sentiments and wishes of the majority of the country.

Free trade is good, but without a stable currency to sustain it then our economy would not be able to keep up. You think that being part of the Euro means that we're preventing bombs from dropping on Europe, dont make me laugh! Are you so caught up with your "I want Ireland to be independant" that your judgement is that clouded?

I think Ireland should follow the example of the UK and Sweden, back track a little bit, and ceceed from the Euro. The Euro is not good for the Irish economy, it is a political experiment, an experiment Ireland need not participate in to the detrament of Irish people and the standards of living of Irish citizens like me.

The Euro, surprise surprise, is a little bit more than a "political experiment", it removes the disincentives of trade between us and the rest of Europe, ie. if exchange rates changed after a deal had been agreed then a company could lose all of it's profits, or at least cut them sharply, and since we do so much trade within Europe this is most definitly a good thing. And there are many more good effects that I wont insult your intelligence by outlining. Yes, we have high inflation, but i've already pointed out my reasoning behind the majority of it, yes the Euro changeover has caused some of it, but it's you who's jumping on the bandwagon here.

A friend of mine traveled to Scotland and back in December of last year for IRL£20 with RyanAir. I can probably proove this if need be.

I do believe that I said "in a few years time", yes, flights are cheap now, I agree in deregulation of the air ports, yet I can also see the point in not just handing over the countries assets to one independant body, see the problems we have with Eircom's control of the telecommunications infrastructure.

Clearly if compnies who dig up the road for reason (n) and fill it in are held accountable for the work done, the state will not have to take on the burdon of resurfacing the roads to fix botched refilling jobs and can divert resources to fixing the scandelously delapaded roads around the hinterland of the greater Dublin Area.

And what about the rest of Ireland?

Personally I disagree with PPPs, I think that there should be a small increase in tax on petrol and disel and that would easily and quickly collect the money for the improved infrastructure that we need, something similar to the plastic bag tax -- the money is guaranteed to go directly towards repairing and building roads, instead of all the bloody tolls that are proposed.

I'd like the economy to be based on economics instead of Federalist Socio-Political experiments.

I can see your point, and yet I do believe there is more than a small dose of economics at play in our current economy.

Then again my ideal would be a situation where there would be an elected independant group of economic advisors who form a committee who decide the future of the economy and that their decisions should be entirely cut off from Politics. And yet that would destroy the basis of politics at all, if they dont have control of the economy what can they control?

And I've noticed that in your reply you made no reference to the changes you want done to the interest rates to correct the inflation problems.... is it that you dont actually know and that you simply like harping along with the idea that the government is out to get us all, and that they really dont want this country to do well? :rolleyes:

<< Fio >>

Typedef

Excuse my assumptions, but it seems that you've some grudge against the current government and you cannot see the good in anything that they do, or am I mistaken?

No you are quite mistaken, but that is hardly relevant to this topic.

Actually, the United Nations was set up to do that. The EC was set up to help that, but it did evolve along the way to focus on economic union, and to encourage the growth of all the countries.

Come now, the main impetus behind the establishment of the EEC at the time was to prevent another war engulfing Europe.

If there was no CAP then Irish farmers would be totally out of the market.

No that is utter nonesense, historically Ireland has had a big agrigultural industry, even when Ireland was still governed by Britian, Ireland was ostensibly an agri nation. The way the CAP operates now, benefits the likes of the French much more then it ever has or ever will the Irish, this is fact and essentially the EU decides how much it thinks Ireland 'might' be able to produce and then pays Irish farms not to produce it. Never mind the fact the CAP is a major contributory factor in the economic depraviation of African nations, I don't actually believe that it is good for Irish industry and whats more, I find it really boring when people continuously band on about how incompetent or how incompetent they imagine anything Irish is. Good god it's a wonder we ever got down from the trees with the attitudes towards this country it's own citizens have. At any given opportunity they jump on the band wagon, "If it's Irish, it's crap" and "thanks to the EU for making the Tiger economy", nonsense thanks the the damned hard working Irish worker for doing that and thanks to nameless civil servants in the Departments of Finance, Trade and Employment and a host of others over the last 20 years guiding Macro economic development.

as they are incredibly inefficient and are easily undercut by other countries.

Sorry do you have any evidence to support this, or is it just some mindless anti-Irish sentiment, I mean I realise anti-Irishness is popular abroad with our European partners, but is it really so rampant here?

I agree that *some* of the aspects of it need to be reviewed, but i'm not blindsighted enough to just throw away the good with the bad because of some anti-European sentiments.

Good, are you so blindsighted that you refuse to accept that perhaps Irish economic success stems from hard work by the Irish and prudent economic managment and that success really casts aspersions on the tired old mantra levied at this nation about laziness ,etc,etc,etc and a whole host a blindly racist and jaundiced attitudes. You display that attitude yourself when you call Irish farmers "incredibly inefficient", do you actually know they are such that you can prove it or do you just extoll the general pigheadedness that seems popular, that if it's Irish it must be crap. I realise from a very early age this general lie is drummed into most Irish people, but if you look at how well the country is doing after so many years of misrule and post colonial economic collapse, I personally think the Irish have more then most a damn lot to be proud of.

You see some of have problems with accepting the results of a referendum that had virtually no turn out

You are accusing me of that? Excuse me, but the referendum has been run and because the government didn't get it's result, the referendum is being forced to plebiscite again. I can accept when the people I vote for don't get into power, because that is democracy, but when people start to prorouge that same mechanism, you open a pandora's box that you may never get closed.

and did not represent the sentiments and wishes of the majority of the country.

By who's criteria? Yours? The electorate had the opportunity to vote and those who chose to did, who are you to decide on a magic number that must vote before you will consider the result valid or representative? I voted, what are you trying to tell me, that my vote doesn't count, because you say not enough people voted, when quite obviously if 1 person had voted and the government had got it's result, this entire issue would be buried? Tell me is that the sort of country you want to build? It's certainly not the sort I want to.

Free trade is good, but without a stable currency to sustain it then our economy would not be able to keep up.

The currecny is anciallary to free trade, the introduction of the currecny has introduced unacceptable levels of inflation into this economy, the introduction of the currency was a political move, not an economic one and tha political move is costing Ireland economically. Why must the EU be turned into a Federal Union, what is so wrong with a Free Trade zone? Ah but in reality the Union exists to prevent another war, isn't that the tacit fact, Ireland and the Irish may as well be looking down the barrel of a gun, tacitly of course.

You think that being part of the Euro means that we're preventing bombs from dropping on Europe, dont make me laugh! Are you so caught up with your "I want Ireland to be independant" that your judgement is that clouded?

Are you so obsessed with the lie that anything Irish is bad, that you refuse to accept the fact that the EU need not be a political Union and that the political union element of the European Union is in fact a mechanism to bring European countrys closer ideally by consent, but as is the case with Ireland, by other means if necessary. I do not consent to the Nice treaty, I have already voted on it, that referendum was free and fair and now the dictats of Europe are nullafying my democratic voice, in effect the European Union and our much vaunted partners are seeking to disenfranchise me. So a body set up to bring European inegration by consent, instead of by force as Hitler and before him Cesar wanted, is now attempting to serrupticiously coerce this nation into it's gandeous Federal Union and what if Ireland refuses? Will the next step be the dropping of any pretences of consent?

The Euro, surprise surprise, is a little bit more than a "political experiment", it removes the disincentives of trade between us and the rest of Europe, ie. if exchange rates changed after a deal had been agreed then a company could lose all of it's profits, or at least cut them sharply, and since we do so much trade within Europe this is most definitly a good thing.

Unfortunately the inflation introduced by the Euro is having a much greater detramental effect then the stability of a single currency intra-Europe. So the interest rates will remain at their current levels until such time as France and or Germany want those rates reset and the Irish will just have to lump it hmm? Do you know what that makes us? A colony an economic second class state, subserviant to the real powers in the European Union and marginalised.

Yes, we have high inflation, but i've already pointed out my reasoning behind the majority of it, yes the Euro changeover has caused some of it, but it's you who's jumping on the bandwagon here.

What you've already said you think the hardworking Irish worker is to blame have you not? Excuse me while I don't share your view on that. The pogrom against the public sector worker never seemed quite so vociferous until Ireland lost the ability to remove high inflation via interest rate reduction did it?

I do believe that I said "in a few years time", yes, flights are cheap now, I agree in deregulation of the air ports, yet I can also see the point in not just handing over the countries assets to one independant body, see the problems we have with Eircom's control of the telecommunications infrastructure.

The difference is Eircom took over the state's infrastructure, infrastructure paid for with tax payers money, while RyanAir wants to use RyanAir's money, not tax payer's money to build a second Terminal in Dublin, not only that but the state would retain control over the first Terminal, so the situation is not analagous to the Eircom debacle.

Personally I disagree with PPPs, I think that there should be a small increase in tax on petrol and disel and that would easily and quickly collect the money for the improved infrastructure that we need, something similar to the plastic bag tax -- the money is guaranteed to go directly towards repairing and building roads, instead of all the bloody tolls that are proposed.

A small tax increase might be a good idea, I'm not saying no, there will always be people in favour and people against. Since petrol is already so expensive though you might have a hard time swinging that. Par example rought €5 in the USA buys you enough to make a car go for 120 miles while roughly €20 does the same in Ireland, this is a noticable difference for Truckers and Taxi drivers and even normal drivers like me.

And I've noticed that in your reply you made no reference to the changes you want done to the interest rates to correct the inflation problems

I want the Irish central bank to have the power to influence interest rates so that there will not be as much pressure on people like me to take less wage, in a time of global economic meltdown.