Shooting massacre in Germany

paddymee

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=514&e=1&cid=514&u=/ap/20020426/ap_on_re_eu/germany_school_shooting_30

So after all the disussion on the board about massacres in the US and blaming the NRA and the right to bear arms etc..., what is the reason for this happening in Germany?

This massacre is larger than Columbine.

It is also larger than Dunblane, Scotland which was also larger than Columbine.

Has gun control helped at all? Both Britian and Germany have heavy gun control.

Does gun control make massacres happen less often? But not stop them? Does that mean that there is another reason for such massacres that the simple solution of gun control does not address?

Paddy

Victor

From your article:
"The death toll matched that of the 1996 shooting at an elementary school in Dunblane, Scotland, where 16 children, a teacher and the gunman died. Fifteen people, included two teen-age gunmen, died in the April 1999 shooting at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo."

And while gun control is relatively good in Germany, not so many people have guns as in the USA. The Germans tend to be a bit more responsible when it comes to guns (German gun owners tend to be reservists or sportmen, not Joe Bloggs types). British gun control was relatively relaxed until Dunblane.

You are also making a mistake in equating gun control to the risk of a massacre. Most shootings in countries with liberal gun laws involve only one victim, but there are a very high number of individual instances. In countries with tighter controls, you have fewer incidents, although typically with a higher number of victims per incident (as the gunman is more likely to be driven/extreme) for an overall lower level of death and injury.

paddymee

Victor,

I agree with you. Most ppl associate lack of gun control with massacres. That's what I was trying to explore.

I'm not to sure when you say that in the US people are less responsible. That sounds a bit condesending. I don't know what info you have to back this up.

We chatted before how the US and Switzerland have similiar gun laws. One has massacres and one doesn't. But Germany has gun control (and no culture of firearms, well I never noticed it when I lived there), and massacres still happen.

Paddy

Victor

Originally posted by paddymee
But Germany has gun control (and no culture of firearms, well I never noticed it when I lived there), and massacres still happen.

This is much like the discussion on road deaths. Ten times as many people in Ireland die on the roads as are murdered. Yet the emphasis of public concern (or rather media concern) is on the murders. We have become desensatised to the constant carnage on the roads, simply because it is not news worthy.

Which would you prefer (in a given population), one person killed every day or ten killed once a month?

Bateman

A lot of local people in Erhart seem to think there is still a post-communist hangover since the wall came down, and there is still a sense of despair among sections of the youth. I mean it doesn't sounds convincing, to me though. I suppose you can't legislate for these types of situations.

Victor

Originally posted by paddymee
Has gun control helped at all? Both Britian and Germany have heavy gun control.

There are 10,000,000 legally held guns in Germany and an estimated 20,000,000 illegally held guns.

In this case, the guns were a legally held pistol and a legally held shotgun (not fired).

Chaos-Engine

The issue isn't Gun control... Its Gun attitute.
USA... Guns= Freedom
Germany... Guns=Tool

Mad men are just as impossible to stop as Terrorists...

bonkey

Originally posted by paddymee
I agree with you. Most ppl associate lack of gun control with massacres. That's what I was trying to explore.

Most people are wrong. Gun control is not the issue.

We chatted before how the US and Switzerland have similiar gun laws.

Not true.

Swiss gun laws are, if anything, more lax then most US ones, but only when it comes to owning unconcealable weapons (hunting-rifles, assault-rifles, etc). Owning a handgun involves a fairly rigorous screening process - which I do not believe is common place in the US.

So, while both have gun-control, I'm not sure how comparable it is.

One has massacres and one doesn't.

Not true.

I would suggest you refresh your memory and read
this. 14 people counts as a massacre in my book.

But Germany has gun control (and no culture of firearms, well I never noticed it when I lived there), and massacres still happen.

The question is not about whether or not they happen. Its how frequently they happen.

IIRC, the incident in Switzerland last year was the second time in 10 years where military issue weaponry had been verifiably misused. The military issue firearms are what make Switzerland appear to have such a high gun-count on paper - privately owned guns are far more scarce.

So - twice in ten years. Not bad. Not ideal, but not bad. Enough to make some people believe that "massacres dont happen in Switzerland". Then again, before the recent events in Germany, how many people would have said "massacres do happen in Germany"?

When we want to examine the reasons or excuses for these things, please remember to look at the correct figures. That Dunblane was bigger then Columbine is, to be quite honest, incidental. That this German shooting took one more life than Columbine is also insignificant.

The number of individual "massacre incidents" per capita is the significant factor. If Swizterland (with 7 million people) has 2 every decade, then America (220 million?) would need approximately 6 a year to be on the same incidence level. I havent looked at the figures, but I think that people should do a little more research and have hard figures about the frequencies of such events relative to the national populations before drawing any conclusion about what the root cause is.

jc

Keeks

Originally posted by bonkey

Most people are wrong. Gun control is not the issue.

Agree with this. In my personal opinion, I think the main difference between the US and European guns owers is the reason they have them. US guns owers buy them for protection, while most Europeans buy them as sporting items. The former being much more dangerous.

Does anyone know if there are any EU policies and Gun control?

Keeks

Just seen this article in the Irish examiner. it says that on the day o the shooting, that the geramn parliment were voting on changes to the gun control laws in the country to make them tighter. It also mentions it the sencond shhoting this year at a school in Germany.

Victor

Originally posted by Keeks
It also mentions it the sencond shhoting this year at a school in Germany.

But it is only the fourth in three years - but we've had one this year in Ireland haven't we? (Note Germany has 20 times the population of Ireland).

But then in Ireland we prefer to kill our children and family at home.

Bateman

Its a tricky one. I agree that gun control isn't the whole story, but its not irrelevant.

The guy had been expelled weeks before but the **** only hit the fan when he had to, as far as his Ma was concerned sit his exams. She wished him the best of luck as he left in the morning.

paddymee

[URL=http://]http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2002/0430/breaking70.htm[/URL]

Oh so that's solution.

Even though Germany already has some of the world's toughest gun laws, and it takes almost a year for applicants to complete rigorous testing to obtain a licence, the attack has prompted calls from most quarters for even stronger limits.