Violence on our streets

NeRb666

Since this is the major topic of conversation this week, following the weekend that was, what do you think the solution is, if indeed there is one, to the escalating violence on the streets of our towns and cities?

Or do you believe that there isn't necessarily more violence these days than, say, 3 years ago?

There was an interesting piece on the news this evening regarding juveniles, about how the 16 year old who was driving the car that killed the two Gardai yesterday was up in court 7 weeks ago on 30 charges, including stealing cars, and he was given 12 months probation, probably because there would have been no detention facilities available if he was given a custodial sentence.

I personally think it's a problem that every one of us must face up to. I'm sorry to say it, but alcohol is the one major factor in street violence. There's no point in sending more police onto the streets, that's not tackling the root of the problem. I think we also need to re-examine how the courts are treating these cases. If someone walks into a bank and steals €20k without harming anyone, they're looking at 10 years, yet if someone steals a car worth €20k and endangers lives, they get a slap on the wrists.

We witnessed the results of this yesterday morning.

Mayshine

I don't like to say it but I do believe that we live in a more violent society today than say 10 years ago. Whether that has occured over the past 3 years is debatable but you get the feeling that violent crime is certainly on the increase.

Alcohol is of course a major factor is a vast majority of unprovoked attacks that are occuring. But I don't agree that sending more police onto the street on Fri/Sat night wouldn't help. Surely a more visible proactive police presence would act as a deterent. With regards to alcohol, there is a worrying upward trend in consumption especially binge drinking. This is something people blame the government for, the police for, but I beleive that in the long run the root of the cause can often be found in parenting. There is a general lack of respect an civility to be found today that never existed to the same degree 10-20 years ago. Why this is happening I'm not sure, it could we'll be down to the pressures of modern living, giving children far more freedoms and liberties than what maybe even I had as a child, and I'm only 23

As for solutions, that is the tough question. Ideally there needs to be a situation whereby people are more accountable for there actions. How to achieve this is debatable!

Jpaulik

Zero tolerance. It really worked in New York, if I'm to believe the stats. Skipping toll fees to graffiti to violent crime were not tolerated at all and you should see the drop in figures.

The murder rate dropped way down as did most violent crime. FF were meant to being it in but never did.

Biffa Bacon

The problem is that the punishment does not fit the crime. Because juvenile detention centers are full, knackers are released back on to the streets straight away. Thus there is no disincentive to committing crimes. My solution is to simply enslave these filthy knackers and house them in cheap-to-build work camps.

Victor

Yeah, scary. Donnybrook is my local station and there was a feeling of dread about the names of the Gardaí killed. 'Luckily' I didn't know them. To be honest I'm not sure if drink was the cause of those events (burgulary, car theft, dangerous driving and death by dangerous driving) can be attributed to drink, but an awful lot of other things can.

---

Separately I found this today. http://www.irishprisons.ie/home.asp

http://www.irishprisons.ie/statistics.asp
Profile of Prisoner Population on 1 June 2000

The current average daily prisoner population in Ireland is approximately 3,000

97% of all prisoners are male
90% of all prisoners are under sentence
44% of sentenced prisoners are aged between 17 and 25
65% are aged under 30 years of age
8 out of 10 (80.5%) prisoners are serving sentences of more than one year
64% of sentenced prisoners are serving sentences of 2 or more years
25% are serving sentences of between 5 and 10 years and 10% more than 10 years
35% of sentenced male prisoners are convicted of crimes against the person
A further 15% are convicted of offences against property with violence

Mayshine

I'd go along with zero tolerence, I always feel this country would never have the balls to introduce and enfore it though. If only some minister would come along and do it for real

Mayshine

And doesn't the country need lots of new roads and all that, can we not chain them all along the road (in big orange jump suits)and at least try and embaress them all, and get a few decent roads too ??

Victor

Originally posted by Mayshine
can we not chain them all along the road (in big orange jump suits)

As traffic cones? Oh, pink works better.

Felix Randel

Originally posted by Mayshine
And doesn't the country need lots of new roads and all that, can we not chain them all along the road (in big orange jump suits)and at least try and embaress them all, and get a few decent roads too ??

What those "chain gangs" do, is they break us rocks at the sides of the roads. Mostly they simply pick up rubbish now

mike65

The causes of the apparent surge in violent crimes are many but
at the root is a straightfoward lack of respect for onesself and therefore others, I'm not thatold (30-something) but it seesm to me that in the last "generational shift" something has happened,
a significant slice of todays under 25s genuinly don't seem to give a toss about anyone or anything. Its just the pursuit of self-gratification and goodies that sems to drive many now, it would be easy to blame that on the "Celtic Tigger" but its deeper it seems, are todays young totally feckless? It can't be poverty that drives these crimes, if you want a job you can get one even if its not much good.The kids who were involved with the death of those Gardai proberly want for little except a stricter up-bringing, trouble is say that sort of thing and you get the worst sort of left-liberal telling you off not understanding "how the kids feel".

I dunno, so many questions and so few clear answers but you can be sure of one thing - this will exploited for party political advantage in the weeks to come by everyone from the Greens to Sein Fein.

Mike

Flemmish Flame

look I am not Irish I am not from an Island but there is one thing I can say here having been here for the last three years that How hard and stupid this may sound Ireland is not that bad yes there is violence here and yes people die of it some times, however people should asked them selves why they or others sometimes end up in fights,
I tend to see Irish people in general as very well behaved, polite people who in general normally will back down from a fight if the circumstances allow it or will rather try to intimidate you with talk, however this seems to change when there is alcohol involved and especially teenagers , in any country, are simply impossible without alcohol and/or drug let stand with it.
Luckily this country and its people still care what happends around them!
And what happened to the two gardia is awfull and I hope the two teenagers will be trialed as adults!

Canaboid

It may not be about poverty per se but it has certainly got to do with social class. The problem as far as I can see is a huge increase in one parent families in the last 20 years. Without a strong male influence, once a young lad reaches age 14/15 his mother can no longer disipline him as she no longer has the physical advantage. At this age, the peer group become the point of reference for behaviour and this is where things go down the pan.
To sum up: Breakdown of family unit = Societal decline

azezil

I was watching a program on this topic a few weeks ago (prime time maybe?) where they showed a bunch of young lads in Ennis hanging out and geting into fights etc.

When i was there i see that nearly every night. One night coming home from teh cinema i was confronted by a group of teens. They blocked my path and gave me the impression they were going to start something. I looked the one who appear to be the leader square in the eye and said "yeah try it", he kinda shruged and steped aside... While i was a few metres away the name calling started :rolleyes: , i looked back n they shut up then i just continued on home. You stand up to them, a lot of the time they'll back down.

A lot of its purely show but there are trouble makers and i agree with an earlier poster "To sum up: Breakdown of family unit = Societal decline" , it certainly has alot to do with it, IMO.

Ruaidhri

oops..see below

Ruaidhri

mike65 :

I'm not thatold (30-something) but it seesm to me that in the last "generational shift" something has happened,
a significant slice of todays under 25s genuinly don't seem to give a toss about anyone or anything

you are right. my generation(I’m 19) have no self respect, no respect or authority or law(hell i don’t give a damn about the police, as far as i can see they are useless, but that's because they are, and that's another discussion)
bet a harder upbringing will not always work, I find that alcohol is the main problem, but there are so many ppl drinking in Ireland, and most have respect for the drug, you wont get a chance to tackle the problem.
on the other hand a stronger police presence probably wont work, I’ve seen them watching fights in my home town, they just sit across the road and watch the fight. to scared to break it up because they will get pulled into the fight. what we need to do is give the police more power. and arm then, or give then batons or something. something to beat some sense into young offenders,
the rate at which young offenders come out of prison now is a disgrace.. coming out quicker then they can be put away.

And doesn't the country need lots of new roads and all that, can we not chain them all along the road

how about straightening the roads first. maybe then they can earn money for the state(as opposed to costing in the region of 30000 per year per prisoner)

Mayshine

as opposed to costing in the region of 30000 per year per prisoner

it actually costs nearly €100,000 per annum to house an person in an irish prison

www.irishprisons.ie

immort4l

Originally posted by mike65
I'm not thatold (30-something) but it seesm to me that in the last "generational shift" something has happened,
a significant slice of todays under 25s genuinly don't seem to give a toss about anyone or anything.

Did you never hear your grandparents say that and consider them foolish? See, it happens to us all.It's a statistical fact that there were far more junkies - in dublin at any rate - than there are now fifteen years ago.I concur that it is a problem,especially in bad areas where it does seem to be on the increase.In other parts , however , It is virtually non-existent (ie:donnybrook , etc..)

There will always be assholes out there.These d1ckhe4ds are so loud that it may seem all of us are like that , yet the numbers are
not dramatically increasing ,it's just that they are becmoing fearless..

It's basically because people are not afraid any more ( due to the lack of garda intervention and punishment) of doing things they previously wouldn't have considered.

ie:One gets caught for robbing/assault etc.. ,nothing happens,they do it again

In this country,something drastic and horrifying has to happen before anyone will accept there is a problem (eg:The crippling of one individual and mass mugging of foreign students in our country before the garda crack down on the problem)I concur that zero tolerance is the way forward.

ps:I know it sucks, I was stabbed by a contingency of tossers. but I would never EVER stand down or let myself be abused.

seamus

Originally posted by NeRb666
There was an interesting piece on the news this evening regarding juveniles, about how the 16 year old who was driving the car that killed the two Gardai yesterday was up in court 7 weeks ago on 30 charges, including stealing cars, and he was given 12 months probation, probably because there would have been no detention facilities available if he was given a custodial sentence.

I was talking to this guy's dad (on the phone, in work) on the day in question. He was looking for a solicitor, and like most calls we get for solicitors, he was a scumbag. His whole attitude was 'oh my poor son, please save him', and one line he said that will stick in my head is, "he was in a stolen car, he's in real trouble this time". At the time, I knew nothing about the crash, and it was only when I heard the news on leaving work, that it occured to me. Maybe the dad didn't know the full extent of his son's actions, but it confirmed for me something that I have thought for a long time: At least half of the blame lies with the parents. I mean how can this guy keep running around and helping his son, after 24 convictions? Fine it's his son, but the line has to be drawn. And regardless of his son's attitude, chances are, the father is the person whom this kid respects the most (out of very little respect overall). He is probably the only person with the power to help, his son, and yet he doesn't (seem to - don't really know much about it overall). It's the same with most juvenile delinquents imho.

A Garda friend of my bro's (vagga knows her) said they probably won't even get manslaughter for it. Death by dangerous driving is probably the worst they could get, which adds up to a max max of 7 years. Defo not enough time for that piece of ****.

Bateman

Violent crime is definitely on the increase. Seeing as we have little or no juvenile detention facilities, why not give a warning and a fine for joyriding to take one example. As second offense of joyriding gets 200 hours community service. And a third gets time.
Simple things, not solutions, but people should be forced to give something back to the society they have harmed.

daftbegger

So let me see???

If a normal guy from a good home suddenly starts a row after being on the piss.. The fault lies with the alchohol he consumed??

PERSONALITY, PERSONALITY, PERSONALITY!!!

Alchohol is not to blame for violent behaviour!!
VIOLENT PEOPLE are to blame for violent behavior!!


I am now officially on my soapbox.

seamus

Originally posted by Bateman
Violent crime is definitely on the increase. Seeing as we have little or no juvenile detention facilities, why not give a warning and a fine for joyriding to take one example. As second offense of joyriding gets 200 hours community service. And a third gets time.
Simple things, not solutions, but people should be forced to give something back to the society they have harmed.

3 times??!! You'd let a little piece of scum away with it twice before locking him up?? First-time offenders can get away easy (everyone makes mistakes) but after that, all crimes should carry a minimum 3-month sentence (unsuspended). But of course, more dentention facilities is *not* the answer. I don't know what is.

pugwall

Im 20 and have been going to the city centre of Dublin for over 3 years at night socialising. I go out on average 2 nights a week to pubs/clubs. I havent once seen a fight or violent incident in the city centre at night. I also do feel safe waking the streets of Dublin at night alone or with a groupe. Ive never been assaulted or mugged. Am I too nieve?
Violence on our streets has been geting alot of media attention recently. Only today in The Irish Times is a feature on some of the victims of this violence. Check it out here .
From this, it is obvious that the violent attacks do occure but at the same time I still feel relatively safe. Again, am I too nieve?

Xterminator

Naive?

nah, you just live ina different dublin than everyone else.

Those green pills are working grand.
FFS i have been in the city centr at night 1/2 dozen times in last 12 months, ive seen 2 fights, seen loads of yobbish behaviour and generally was reminded why i stopped going to the city centre.

X

Hellrazer

At one time in the last few years there was talk of parents being punished for their childrens crimes.What do people think of this idea?
I personally believe that this would stop some but not all of the juvenile crime-If my child(in say 15 years) robbed a car and I was fined say €5000 then yes I would do my best to stop it happening again.Another problem is the juvenile laws in this country,children are becoming adults at a much earlier age ie at 15 now a child is robbing cars etc.wheras a few years ago a 15 year old was probably more innocent than they are now.
Should these "children"be tried as adults?I think so.Also prison here is like a holiday for some of these offenders-tv,video,games etc.Whatever happened to being punished for your crimes?
Bring back chain-gangs and possibly the death sentence for murderers,rapists etc which is what a lot of these juveniles will become in the future.The government needs to get tougher on these offenders!

Victor

Originally posted by richie18
Bring back chain-gangs and possibly the death sentence for murderers,rapists etc which is what a lot of these juveniles will become in the future.The government needs to get tougher on these offenders!

Will this apply to your kids also?

Hellrazer

Im actually stating an opinion.Of course I wouldnt like it for my child,who`s parents would.All Im saying is that there need to be harsher treatments for criminals instead of treating them like they`re sick or whatever and need to be looked after by giving them all the amenities like TV etc when they should be paying for their crimes.
The government is always talking about public spending and where the money for new public services is coming from etc,yet we have the ideal labour force tied up in our prison system.These criminals should be made pay for their crimes by building new roads etc.Jesus we could even get them to build the "bertie bowl"They could even be paid for their troubles-albeit at a much lower rate than some builders-so they can have something to show for it after they finish their time.

Bateman

This is exactly what I agree with, labour (not the PP, although...) as punishment, up to a certain point where a juvenile becomes a hardened criminal. Then its "don't drop the soap" time. But before locking someone up labour as punishment is obvious, yet ignored. Its not a solution, but its an improvement.

Victor

"All Im saying is that there need to be harsher treatments for criminals instead of treating them like they`re sick or whatever and need to be looked after by giving them all the amenities like TV etc when they should be paying for their crimes."

Many prisoners are sick (substance abuse, Hepatitis, HIV, depression, low self esteem and other mental problems). And I don't think TV is such a luxury these days. Would you have the prisoners held incommunicado for the duration of their sentence? thats a nice way to store up future problems.

"These criminals should be made pay for their crimes by building new roads etc.Jesus we could even get them to build the "bertie bowl"

But look at the number of extra staff you would have to use to guard them on site!

Hellrazer

Do it like they did in the old days.Chain their ankles together-that way 1or 2 guards would be enough to guard 20 or so prisoners.Whatever way you look at it we could still save money.

Bateman

>But look at the number of extra staff you would have to use to guard them on site!

Even of we allow for the opinion that chaining feet would be too harsh (which it wouldn't), certain construciton costs would still be avoided, and overall, money would probably be saved.

Victor

Originally posted by richie18
Do it like they did in the old days.Chain their ankles together-that way 1or 2 guards would be enough to guard 20 or so prisoners.Whatever way you look at it we could still save money.

That would be great for productivity (not!). Whatwould you have them doing, breaking rocks?

Hellrazer

No I wouldnt have them breaking rocks!I would have them digging out new roads,building work etc.You could even train them in a trade while they`re at it so that they may have some sort of crime free life when they get out rather than go back to stealing etc.

Victor

Originally posted by richie18
No I wouldnt have them breaking rocks!I would have them digging out new roads,building work etc.

I'm sorry, but machinery can do this much more cheaply. You would be much better off spending the money on training / education in prison.

Originally posted by richie18
You could even train them in a trade while they`re at it so that they may have some sort of crime free life when they get out rather than go back to stealing etc.

While chained up? I think workshop based training would be much better for these purposes and this is why it is being implemented.

conZ

originally posted by azezil....

They blocked my path and gave me the impression they were going to start something. I looked the one who appear to be the leader square in the eye and said "yeah try it", he kinda shruged and steped aside...

...ya, sure ya did.