Protesters in Israeli Embassy tree

Chaos-Engine

They have been there all week. I am going down tommorrow to show some support and take some photographs...
Read exactly whats happening now here

Isreali Embassy Tree protester update

Bucon

Just had to be the first with the obligatory, "Get a job" post.

Sitting up a tree, that's gonna help a whole bunch...jesus :rolleyes:


Bucon.

gandalf

What would be more effective is to arrange a boycott of all Isreali goods rather than sit up a tree. The embassy staff must be laughing their holes off looking at them

Gandalf.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by gandalf
What would be more effective is to arrange a boycott of all Isreali goods rather than sit up a tree. The embassy staff must be laughing their holes off looking at them

Exactly. Why not do something that has some chance of influencing the situation?

Typedef

A boycott is a great idea along those lines I would similarly support a Macro Eu embargo on trade with the state of Israel until such time as it compiles with some of the more basic requisits of the UN and international community at large.

On a more immediate scale though a boycott of Israeli goods and services would be the ideal as it is highly unlikely the United States is ever going to support any kind of embargo or military action to redress the state of play vis-a-vis Israel and for nearly fifty years now the rest of the world has allowed the state of Israel to transgress lines and criteria of acceptability that long ago would have had just about any other country if not militarily acted against at least restricted as regard trade with other countries. Example Serbia flouted UN resolutions and had action taken against it, Iraq flouted UN resolutions and had a trade embargo placed on it, ergo Israel should have to live by the same criteria. I doubt there is little ambiguity that if Ireland were to flout the UN and international opinion at large that it would not be too long before economic sanctions were imposed, therefore as Israel is just another country, it should have to live by the same criteria.

Typedef.

four_star

there is some sort of religious feast around now and there is no important person in the embassy as they are on holidays. nice timing retards.

Typedef

That said I think that tomorrow (and tomorrow and tomorrow) I will mosey on past the Israeli embassy so I can have myself photographed by the Mossad.
Also there is apparently a pro-Palestinian gathering at the Central Bank @ 1 o'clock Saturday 6th Apr 2002 which I might lend some body space to, too.

Typedef.

ReefBreak

IndyMedia... That bastion of truth of truth and unbiased, non-political reporting.

while below them Gardai intimidated supporters who were trying to hand up blankets and safety ropes.

They also got a mention in todays Irish Times... An excellent article from Kevin Myers.

Caoimhe Butterly, who has joined Yasser Arafat in his besieged bunker, is clearly a very brave young woman, and I hope that she emerges from her ordeal emotionally and physically intact. But her presence in the bunker does rather presuppose that the Israelis will show some military restraint on account of her being there.

Does she think that her presence at a bar mitzvah might have a similarly deterrent effect on any suicide bombers? I somehow doubt that it would. If one is determined to be a martyr, and if one has so little regard for one's own life, and for the bonds of love and duty that tie one to the world of the living, it's unlikely that one will care greatly whom one kills.

Death is lord of all, especially if one is taking as many Jews as possible. That seems to be the central ambition of the suicide bombers. Essentially: Jews will do, even teenage Jews coming through the rite of passage into pre-adulthood.

Glorious end

Now we haven't seen anything quite like this in quite a while, this willingness to kill lots of people of all ages and of either sex simply because of their Jewishness. And we certainly have not seen so many people place so little value on their own lives that death in an act of murderous hatred of the innocent is seen to be a glorious end.

Complex questions arise here, which might or might not have been asked by those people who tied themselves to a tree in the grounds of the Israeli embassy in Dublin the other day. No doubt they were, and were answered to their own satisfaction. I confess, deplorable though events in Bethlehem clearly are, I am unable to share whatever lucidity of thought others seem to enjoy.

Let us ask the most basic question. What deal is possible with an organisation whose members are queuing up to blow themselves and as many innocent people as possible to kingdom come? This is not about power-sharing, or self-respect, or self-government, which are negotiable things in the real world. Indeed, this is not a secular question at all, but a metaphysical one, and one which is beyond the powers of the rest of us. It is about the relationship between Muslim fundamentalists and God, one in which life is an impediment to be disposed of as swiftly as possible.

So the Israelis are in a dilemma which no worldly power has faced before. Soldiers are trained to kill the enemy, the logic being that the enemy will not want to die, and will do his best, within the confines of his duty, to avoid death. But when the enemy both shares your country with you, and will undertake to kill himself (or herself) as he kills at random, then the normal rules of engagement are inverted beyond ordinary comprehension.

What deters a terrorist when what the rest of us regard as the ultimate deterrent is for him and her actually the ultimate incentive? Yasser Arafat says he wants to die, to be a martyr. That might just be rodomontade; but we know it is not for so many people, who place far less value on their own lives than do their enemies. The Israelis do not deliberately kill 16-year-old girls; what are we to make of an organisation which will enlist the services of such a girl to kill herself and others? And are there terms which it is possible to offer which will cause such horrors to cease?

Means to an end?

Some people might argue that such attacks are merely means to an end. Yes, but what end? Is not the means actually the end itself, a passport to paradise, and for men 74 virgins (what women martyrs get in the hereafter is a little less clear)? And is the worldly, non-personal end not simply the end of the Israeli state? What Israeli politician is going to negotiate for that? Politics is about dealing with the problems that history bequeaths us. It is the easiest thing in the world to point to blunders the Israelis have made; and the greatest of these was probably the conquest of the West Bank and Jerusalem in the Six-Day War, from which a toxic hubris grew.

But that is in the past. There is no hubris now in Israel, just incomprehension and fear, in a world of lethal paradoxes. It is open season on Jews again, but now in the very state which was created to prevent such a thing. The one place where the Final Solution culture should not exist is the one place where it is now flourishing.

Moreover, the enemies of Israel are weak: yet their weakness is their greatest strength. What need have they of tanks? Tanks are for people who wish to survive battle; and they wish to perish in it. They have turned death into a cult which tolerates no other creed or no other value, and with which there can be no meaningful negotiation.

Tragic history

Like most Irish people, I have enormous sympathy for the Palestinian people whose history has been unspeakably tragic. But as George Mitchell reported, the present intifada began as a deliberate means of extracting further concessions from Prime Minister Barak, who had been offering a return of 97 per cent of the Occupied Territories. He is now gone, and the intifada has become an endless celebration of death itself.

Moloch, the Canaanite god before whom living children were burnt, is once again master of his ancestral lands: for Canaan is the name by which Palestine was known before the Jews first arrived there, over 3,000 years ago.

dathi1

Well although I agree with Lance Corporal Myers on a lot of social issues his apologist portfolio on British and other state terrorism acts leaves a lot to be desired.

dathi1

Like most Irish people, I have enormous sympathy for the Palestinian people whose history has been unspeakably tragic. But as George Mitchell reported, the present intifada began as a deliberate means of extracting further concessions from Prime Minister Barak, who had been offering a return of 97 per cent of the Occupied Territories. He is now gone, and the intifada has become an endless celebration of death itself.

97% my arse......you can have 82% as long as we can have our Illegal settlement camps and our feeder roads and oh yeah you have to get permission to move around your own territory especially across our feeder routes. Oh and by the way..we will be building more camps depending on the change of Government.

Sand

Theyre still up that tree? Poor dears. A boycott is a valid idea, because its at least non-ridiculous, assuming of course a boycott organised by the desperately earnest can actually register.

As for Kevin Myers article its an excellent piece. Thats not uncommon with Myers though if were honest.

But her presence in the bunker does rather presuppose that the Israelis will show some military restraint on account of her being there.

Does she think that her presence at a bar mitzvah might have a similarly deterrent effect on any suicide bombers?

Hits the nail on the head.

dathi1

Does she think that her presence at a bar mitzvah might have a similarly deterrent effect on any suicide bombers?

Probably not but if you take Illegal Occupation out of the equation then at least you have a fighting chance of sidelining the Nethanyus, Sharon (A democratically elected terrorist), and Islam Jihad.

shotamoose

Myers is talking through his hole. Does he really imagine that some Palestinian people are born with the fond aim of blowing themselves and dozens of innocent Israelis up in future years? Does he think that such an end is taught and encouraged in the schools and kindergartens of the West Bank? Or is he being somewhat disingenuous again - and does he not realise how the very 'reasonable' and very 'just' military and violent actions of the Israelis invites the most violent response from those they attack? Is he one of those who wonders how the Palestinians can justify fighting back? Because surely he can't wonder how they can justify fighting at all, since that question only itself tells half the story.

So the Israelis are in a dilemma which no worldly power has faced before

Not true. They find themselves in the same situation as any military force which fights an enemy which has nothing left itself its own people. The palestinians have nothing, abosultely nothing, with which to fight except their own lives. It's a filthy result of a filthy war, and lets not pretend anybody would ever choose it.

the enemies of Israel are weak: yet their weakness is their greatest strength

Absolutely right, but he fails to realise the lesson here - unjust domination will never totally succeed and will always be resisted somehow, the more implausibly and 'heroically' the 'better'. That is, the longer one faction believes it can settle matters through military means, the longer another will try to resist it in just the same way.

As for his misleading dredging up of the so-called '97%' peace deal and that offensive evoking of Biblical prejudice, the least said the better....

Von

The Israelis do not deliberately kill 16-year-old girls;

Oh yes they do Mr.Myers and they deliberately shoot at journalists and ambulance crews too.

Ello ello ello what's all this then?

Gargoyle

I"m sorry, but please try to come up with a more objective source than indymedia if you want anyone to be convinced.

Edit: Usually when you tell some idiot to go climb a tree, you usually don't expect them to actually do it, lol.

kim tong-jung

kim_tong_jung11@yahoo.co.kr
Sharon is a wanted killer!

He is wanted by the Hague and by Belgium for crimes against humanity!

Crimes where in a three day massacre he has possibly killed more innocents, than binLaden did in the WTC.

But Sharon got away with murder,
The Israali primeminister is a war criminal.
He got War criminals and killers out of prison, dressed them up in soldier uniform.
Armed them with knives gun bombs and torture instruments.Sent them in to the small population of 2000 people

Attorney-General Elyakim Rubinstein charged yesterday that the indictment in Belgium against Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and former IDF officers linked to the 1982 Sabra and Shatila Massacre was a political rather than a judicial act.
http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/07/11/News/News.30175.html

USA-Rat-Arse(USA-Ronin (Mar 2 2002 - 15:36)\)read this
An American wrote this:

Israel's Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, is one of the world's most bloodstained terrorists. He is responsible for the cold-blooded slaughter of at least 1,500 men, women and children in the Beirut refugee camps of Chatila and Sabra. Even a formal Israeli commission found Sharon personally responsible for the Lebanese massacres.(4)

In 1982, as Israel's defense minister, Sharon directed Israel's invasion of Lebanon and the carpet bombing and devastation of the city of Beirut (In Lebanon five times more women and children died than in the September New York attack). This terror bombing was carried out by Jews using jet fighters and bombs supplied by the United States.

After the Israeli military devastation and occupation, Sharon forcibly removed Palestinian resistance fighters from Lebanon. Many Palestinian women, children and old people were left behind in refugee camps near Beirut. The United States publicly guaranteed their safety and promised that they would quickly be reunited with their loved ones. When Sharon plotted their murder, he not only planned a bloody act of terrorism against the refugees; he knew it was an act of treachery against the United States that would raise intense hatred against America.

On the night of September 16, 1982, Sharon sent Phalangist murder squads into two Palestinian refugee camps, Sabra and Chatila. With Israeli tanks and troops closely surrounding the camps to prevent any of the Palestinians from escaping, the murder squads machine-gunned, bayoneted, and bludgeoned Palestinian civilians all that night, the next day and the following night; all while the Israelis surrounding the camps listened gleefully to the machine gun fire and screams coming from inside. Sharon then sent in bulldozers to hide as much of the atrocity as he could. At least 2000 old men, women and children were butchered, and perhaps as many as 2500. (An official Lebanese investigation set the figure at 2500) Even after the efforts of Sharon's bulldozers, many Palestinians remained unburied, and Red Cross workers found whole families; including hundreds of elderly and little children, with their throats cut or disemboweled. Uncounted numbers of women and girls were also raped before they were slaughtered.

Ariel Sharon is sought for trial by the Hague Tribunal, the same body that succeeded in extraditing former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic for charges of crimes against humanity in Kosovo. Sharon will not travel to Belgium for fear of arrest by the International Court for the massacre.(5)
http://www.minneapolis.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=3533

. EVEN A FORMAL ISRAELI commission found Sharon PERSONALLY responsible for the Lebanese massacres.(

Atama Ii (Jan 18 2002 - 08:00)
"Wasn't Sharon, after all, the one that said that Israel controlled the U.S.?"
Do you have more info on this. Just curious....

I will have a look 4 you, but I think it may be controll in a more indirect tacticall fashion.

Heres an example:

"Many Palestinian women, children and old people were left behind in refugee camps near Beirut. The United States publicly guaranteed their safety and promised that they would quickly be reunited with their loved ones. When Sharon plotted their murder, he not only planned a bloody act of terrorism against the refugees; he knew it was an act of treachery against the United States that would raise intense hatred against America."

http://www.minneapolis.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=3533

A good example of a smaller country outwitting and tactically controlling a larger one!
Read The Article,
"Sharon regrets not killing Arafat"

JustHalf

Originally posted by shotamoose
Myers is talking through his hole. Does he really imagine that some Palestinian people are born with the fond aim of blowing themselves and dozens of innocent Israelis up in future years? Does he think that such an end is taught and encouraged in the schools and kindergartens of the West Bank?

They actually are thought this.

There are summer schools were children are taught to hate Jews. Mothers claim they hope their children grow up to be martyrs. Arafat has sent letters of congratulations to the families of suicide bombers.

Their maps erase the state of Israel. Arafat has claimed (in Arabic) of agreements between him and Israel: 'I don't consider the agreement any more than the agreement which was signed by our prophet Mohammad and the Qurayish'... ie, not worth anything at all.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26320

Regardless of what you think of Sharon, you do have to realise that Arafat is an ass-clown, and Palestine is messed up in ways other than the infrastructure and economy. Like in the head.

Boston

You say hatred is bread for Jews in west bank schools, maybe that’s we it is watered and flourishes, but that is not the seed of the Palestinian hatred for Jews. It is on the streets of there cities that are in flames as we speak here today that the first seeds of hatred and planted. Before you condemn the Palestinians for the use of suicide bombers ask yourself what other option do they have. You say peaceful mean will achieve aims, peaceful means are hard to fully while your people or being subjugated, segregated, and exterminated, the facts are if you and Arab in Israel your scum, your nothing but scum to these people, you might as well not bother trying to live any kind of life because it wont happen. Your second class and you kept down.

They are on there own, any other nation besides Israel wouldn’t haven been allowed to carry on in this fashion, you way say it’s practical to stop and search anybody that might be a terrorist and since most terrorist against Israel or Arab it’s logical to stop and search them. You may also say it’s logical to have Jew only roads as was set out in the agreement Arafat turned down. You called him a war graving mad man, a criminal, a man bent on Israeli destruction for daring to turn down such the agreement, how quick some of you forget how outraged you were but the disgraceful behavior of loyalist who didn’t want Catholics walking down “their” road recently, they to used bombs and targeted civilians to attempt to get their way. Stop the different, the difference is that while this type of precondition and warping of human rights is perfectly expectable in an nation ruled by the old testament, it is totally on expectable in the modern would.

So before you condemn the Palestinians for the use of suicide bombers ask yourself what other option do they have. Can you not see the futility is trying peaceful means at this stage? The Israeli government will continue to stone wall the Palestinians, as they have done for over 55 years. The Eu, by all means one of the most powerful organizations on the face of this planet was just totally stonewalled, by Israel completely, and refused access to Arafat. The UN has been stone walled by Israeli since 1968. The land the Israeli’s offered Arafat was only 85% of what they were legal binder to return to Palestinian hands, with out any preconditions at all. The us, Israel’s only ally is flat out ignored and stonewalled. The us representative in the region was permitted access to Arafat after American pressure only to have it removed the next day.

So I ask you, if the major powers in this world have to go to such lengths to get the attention of the Israeli government, and often cant without resorting to threaten them, then how on earth do you expect this little spec of a country like Palestine to be able to get their attention, the only reason they even talk to Arafat is because of suicide bombers.
With other countries, like the UK and us, if they are ignored, they send in jet plains to carry out tactical strikes against targets that get little or no civilians killed, the Palestinians don’t have the luxury of jet fighters tanks and armored personal carriers, they rely on suicide bombers and lone gun men to get the message across. It makes you wonder though; the Israelis have all the weapons the US has, yet when they go after “terrorist” some how a far greater number of civilians get kill in the process.

They have ignored every other peaceful attempt at achieving peace, so what makes you think it will work if the Palestinians try, it wont, it will just get more people killed in the long run, because Israeli with never give up the upper hand, and you can never have a meaningful peace while one country has such a huge advantage over the other.

Gordon

I was a bit drunk last night but I could have sworn that I didn't see them still up the tree, and I'm pretty sure I asked the copper if they were gone and got a very disgruntled mumble of a yes. Actually he wasn't a very nice copper, but then I was very drunk.

Are they still there?

Sand

So before you condemn the Palestinians for the use of suicide bombers ask yourself what other option do they have.

2 Answers.
1)Terrorism is not an option.
2)Negotiation.

You may also say it’s logical to have Jew only roads as was set out in the agreement Arafat turned down. You called him a war graving mad man, a criminal, a man bent on Israeli destruction for daring to turn down such the agreement,

Nah, it was more for his refusal to negotiate, discuss or even propose anything. Of course he was a coward then, frightened to be the man who agreed to less than total victory over the hated Jews. Sadat got killed for daring to do that. Arafat didnt want to die. So he did his Ian Paisley act and ignored peace.

Boston

2 Answers.
1)Terrorism is not an option.

For many, including israel, it is the only answer.

2)Negotiation.

in order to negotiate you need leverage, the only thing isreal wants is an end to suicide bombings, so why should arafat give it to them and throw away the only card he has.

Arafat didnt want to die. So he did his Ian Paisley act and ignored peace.

If a guy came up to you and point a gun at your head and said, "hey im going to take 15% of your garden, and im going to have to right for my dog to **** all over your remaining 85%. would you except it?

it easy to say arafat didnt except peace and hes a bastard for it, but theres a huge difference between surrender(what was on offer) and and exceptable subtainable peace. Arafat knew if he signed up to that, yes he would be dead, and also israel would haev goen back on the deal at the slightest sign of violence

Sand

it is the only answer.

Quite simply they are wrong.

in order to negotiate you need leverage, the only thing isreal wants is an end to suicide bombings, so why should arafat give it to them and throw away the only card he has.

Because murder of civillians is not acceptable leverage. Im glad your recognising that Arafat does have control over the terrorism and thus is a terrorist.

If a guy came up to you and point a gun at your head and said, "hey im going to take 15% of your garden, and im going to have to right for my dog to **** all over your remaining 85%. would you except it?

Poor comparison. Israel already owns 100% of the occupied territories, hence the name. If I went to peace negotiations I would expect to have to negotiate. Theres more to peace talks than refusing proposals. Perhaps Arafat could have been so daring as to make a proposal himself.

Boston

Because murder of civillians is not acceptable leverage. Im glad your recognising that Arafat does have control over the terrorism and thus is a terrorist.

The murder of civilians is the leverage being applied at the moment by isreali forces. As for being a terrorist, ive said before i see no difference between state sponsored terrorism and indivisual terrorism.