Israel

Thomas from Presence

When I read a newspaper or watch a news programme I usually try and be as objective as possible. In recent days I've found myself siding with the conclusion that the Israeli state is one of the most despicable in the world.

Am I missing something or is the country that was founded on the blood of the holocaust know becoming like the very ppl that tried to exterminate them?

Discuss:

JustHalf

At the moment at least.

The Gopher

Part of the problem is the power of the overinflated egos.A large amount of Israelis believe that Israel is THEIR land.Full stop.No sharing with any1 else.For Jews and Jews only.And Sharon is among them.They are unwilling to take part in talks that may involve the loss of land.

Superman

See thats the problem its only now that people like you and the masses have come to realise the extent of the problem of israel and how it is basically just another fascist state where a few military fatcats have all the decsions.

How long will the world have to wait before there is a global and radical stand against Israeli arrogance towards palestine. It seems to me that all the Wesern Countries can do is sit by passively.

Why aren't decent irish citizens standing up and helping there brother and sisters in Palestine, Ireland suffered greatly at the hands of the black + tans but yet we fail to relate to a similar struggle in another Country.

Ok, So people say the palestinians are too violent and they should surrender before peace. These people have no idea of the palesinians struggle and what it takes to strap yourself with explosives. These people have lost hope in life and peace.

The only way these people can regain hope is by international solidarity and once they know they have international support they will return to the table. Mark my words.

And for solidarity, I don't mean a few photo's and couple of newspaper paragraphs. I mean real ation like Boycotts, Military action and Attacks on The international web of Israel.

Yes I do think violence is wrong and it is a waste of resources but to show a real lesson we must strke deep in the heart of the Israeli Military and show them that only by there surrender can peace be made. Kill Sharon.

alastair

superman; you are an idiot.

you have no idea what strapping explosives to yourself is about, any more than the rest of us.

yes the israelis are oppressing the palestinians. No it's not run by 'fatcats'. It's a democracy with a seige mentality against all arab states (generally not properly democratic). I'm opposed to the israeli occupation and to the treatment of the palestinians, but to suggest 'western solidarity' with the palestinians will shift the israelis point of view is naive.
The israelis hear precious little but rebukes from europe. They don't care.
The paymasters of israel are the ameicans, and they don't care to hear about an arab perspective. Israel do most of their trade with the US, and otherwise with the likes of china, myamar, south american states etc. Not exactly centred on european interests.

and killing sharon (however objectionable he may be) is only going to be counterproductive. Arafat isn't exactly a candidate for 'mister nice guy' either.

in the end of the day, the only way to make the israelis see sense (and encourage responsible leadership in the arab states) is to stop the US supporting nearsighted israeli goals, and make some reperation to the palestinians.

Paddy20

Sadly, the Jews are not too be trusted.

They worship money more than anythng else, and the value of another human beings - Life - simply will not equate in their "Mindset". Particularly, amongst the "Ortodox" jews, who view anyone, including other non-ortodox Jews as basically evil?.

The "Americans" are another cause for "extreme" concern. Their President thinks heis a Cowboy. He is a war mongerer, capable of causing a "Third" world war. As was predicted?.

Hopefully, someone will appearand put a stop to mans inhumanity too man, before we are all vaporised?.

Yours, paddy20:speechless:

Stephen

Originally posted by paddy20
Sadly, the Jews are not too be trusted.

Nice sweeping generalisation you made there. Muppet.

Bard

Originally posted by paddy20
Sadly, the Jews are not too be trusted.

Ahhh Paddy20... it didn't take long for you to go from a minor trolling muppet to a total racist dickhead ... well done!

:rolleyes:

logic1

Originally posted by paddy20
Sadly, the Jews are not too be trusted.

Heil! :rolleyes:

.logic.

gandalf

Paddy20

I'm speechless, as for whatever opinion I have gathered of you from the IOFFL board you have made a generalised racist comment that I think you should retract immediately.

THe Jewish people themselves are not the problem. I have known quite a few well and I can tell you that they are a very close and loving group of people. The problem is the Government of Isreal, an awful lot of Isrealis are also against their actions.

We in Europe can do something to make Isrealis realise that we are against the unlawful actions of their government, we can boycott isreali goods in the shops.

Be careful not to fall into the trap and generalise a whole people because of the actions of a few in their government.

Paddy20 you should be ashamed of yourself.

Gandalf.

Frank Grimes

Sadly, the Jews are not too be trusted.

They worship money more than anythng else, and the value of another human beings - Life - simply will not equate in their "Mindset".

As much as I disagree with what the Israelis are doing out there, that is probably the most bigotted, non informed mass generalisation I have seen in a long time. How many Jewish people do you know paddy20?

mirv

"You." are a "NaZi"!!. By "that." I mean "PaDdY2o"!!!!?.

JustHalf

Originally posted by The Gopher
Part of the problem is the power of the overinflated egos.A large amount of Israelis believe that Israel is THEIR land.Full stop.No sharing with any1 else.For Jews and Jews only.And Sharon is among them.They are unwilling to take part in talks that may involve the loss of land.

Please, some supporting evidence? At least to hide your prejudices behind, ffs?

Superman

gandalf i agree with you totally.

It is a government not a people problem and boycotts would help the cause of the Palestinians because the israeli's would then take heed to the world and be even more resistant to there governments actions.

Alastair I have to agree with you.

killing Sharon is only eliminating a part of a cancer. ALL arab leaders have a part to play in the problem and there idleness is just as bad as American support.

and if you ever talked to anyone from Ramallah who has spent more than a generation in a camp you will realise just how desperate they are and how a suicidal mission is, in their eyes the greatest they can achieve . Because in there eyes violence is the key because they have being raised that way and seen how effective israeli agression is

Paddy20

Reply from paddy20,

Sorry, if I hurt the sensitivities of the innocent who believe that the poor - much maligned Jewish race - have suffered enough?.

However, despite Hitlers and the Nazi Parties atrocities commited during the last world war, and by the way Hitler was a total lunatic who hated just about everyone. If I was a "Nazi" I would not have that opinion of him, would I ??.

I knew that there would be a somewhat controversial reaction to my comments in relation to "The Jews" but I do not mean too tar all Jews with a "Racist" remark. Therefore in the interest of being totally fair and accepting that I made a racist comment un-intentionally??. I hereby retract the statement "Jews are not too be trusted" - but note I did not state - eradicate them from the face of the earth.

As for, "How many Jews do I know"? question:- Let me state clearly that I lived in "Stamford Hill" in London for many years.
It is primarily a "Jewish only" area, in much the same way that Kilburn or Camden Town are or were "Irish areas".

During those years the Jewish people themselves taught me about the "Orthodox Jewish faith" they have their own schools. No Gentiles allowed?. They congregate in one specific area which is like a mini Israel. Collectors call to every jewish home every week for the weekly contribution towards the Jewish nation, and people contribute out of fear of being ostracised by their own kind.

This money that is also collected all over the world is put in to a "Fighting fund" for the Jewish homeland - called Israel. So that
they can arm themselves militarily and "Kill" totally innocent people.

As for the "Government" being responsible? Who elected the Government for Gods sake, and finally who crucified "Christ"??.

I respect peoples right too live in peace in their own Country, but I believe that a large proportion of individual misguided Jewish citizens do not. That opinion of mine is based on many years spent living amongst Jews. Not a mindless uneducated racist conclusion.

The "Middle East" region is the most dangerous "flashpoint" on Earth - Yet the Jewish Government refuses point blank. To listen to any other nation and if they do not they will pay the price.

Yours, paddy20.:rolleyes:

b20uvkft6m5xwg

paddy

As Thomas pointed out I too try to remain as Objective as I can on the issue.

But...

Sorry, if I hurt the sensitivities of the innocent who believe that the poor - much maligned Jewish race - have suffered enough?.

I feel disgusted to even share a forum with your shíte-
Since I was young, I have had many jewish friends and for you stand behind the factually incorrect, racist, bigotted labelling of the jewish religion is disgusting.

Its not a question about sorrow for the "jewish Race", its about the people, human beings- How you can tar every jewish person with the same brush is bafalling-

The current issues in the Middle East have been compounded by both sides over the years. Nobody minds arguing and debating "facts" about the conflict, but take your anti-semetic flame bait elsewhere please.

Paddy20

"Abusive" "$hite" "deleted"

"Castor"

Cake Fiend

JESUS SUFFERING ****, why do you - TYPE - like "that"???

DOING my "head" in??

I'm presuming you're not a troll



edit: GG Castor

Victor

Any Jews, including Orthodox Jews that I have met are generally nice enough people.

Originally posted by paddy20
and finally who crucified "Christ"??

Wasn't it the Romans? (BTW you have an interesting concept of 'finally')

Originally posted by paddy20
Let me state clearly that I lived in "Stamford Hill" in London for many years. It is primarily a "Jewish only" area,

Is it "Jewish only" or not? (a) you lived there (b) "It is primarily a "Jewish only" area". So is it or isn't it?

And many ethnic groups tend to settle in particular neighbourhoods in any big city.

Originally posted by paddy20
"Orthodox Jewish faith" they have their own schools. No Gentiles allowed?

Why are you presenting a question as a statement of fact? Many countries have religious involvement in school (Ireland being the most obvious example) to some greater or lesser degree. And pretty much every religion has it's own schools somewhere.

Von

Originally posted by Victor
Is it "Jewish only" or not? (a) you lived there (b) "It is primarily a "Jewish only" area". So is it or isn't it?

I used to live in Stamford Hill. Worked in a pub called the bird cage. If I remember correctly, there's a rabbi training school or something in the stoke newington/stamford hill area. There's plenty of irish round there too. And cockneys of course. Friday night was "entertainment" night in the pub. A father and son team would play Chas'n'Dave records for what seemed like eternity.

PHB

Sorry, if I hurt the sensitivities of the innocent who believe that the poor - much maligned Jewish race - have suffered enough?.

You very well should be.

However, despite Hitlers and the Nazi Parties atrocities commited during the last world war, and by the way Hitler was a total lunatic who hated just about everyone. If I was a "Nazi" I would not have that opinion of him, would I ??.

Hitler did not hate everyone. He developed a deep hatred of Jewish people due to
a) His lunacy about Germany losing WW1 and he thought it was because of the riots that citizens had which were led sometimes by Jewish people, not that they were losing the war anyway and that this was just a result of this.
b) He was always second best to a Jewish boy in school.
He disliked anyone who he considered as "weak" Hence his hatred of disabled people.
He dislike anyone who had a different view than his. Hence when he studied in college he searched for references to back up his beliefs, not to learn new ones. That is why he imprisioned anyone who disagreed with him.

I knew that there would be a somewhat controversial reaction to my comments in relation to "The Jews" but I do not mean too tar all Jews with a "Racist" remark. Therefore in the interest of being totally fair and accepting that I made a racist comment un-intentionally??. I hereby retract the statement "Jews are not too be trusted" - but note I did not state - eradicate them from the face of the earth.

I'm happy you realised how nicredibly idiotic you seem to be and are.

As for, "How many Jews do I know"? question:- Let me state clearly that I lived in "Stamford Hill" in London for many years.
It is primarily a "Jewish only" area, in much the same way that Kilburn or Camden Town are or were "Irish areas".

It doesnt matter if you know a thousand jewish people, you can't generalise a race. Also might I add that you would have associated with Jewish people who don't like in Israel.

During those years the Jewish people themselves taught me about the "Orthodox Jewish faith" they have their own schools. No Gentiles allowed?. They congregate in one specific area which is like a mini Israel. Collectors call to every jewish home every week for the weekly contribution towards the Jewish nation, and people contribute out of fear of being ostracised by their own kind.

I like the way you can tell that they contribute for fear of being ostracised by their own kind. You can't imagine the fact that they might actually agree with these views.

The fact that you have to ask the question "No Gentiles allowed?" shows you were not really listening to what they thought were you?

This money that is also collected all over the world is put in to a "Fighting fund" for the Jewish homeland - called Israel. So that
they can arm themselves militarily and "Kill" totally innocent people.

While I am strongly in favour of Palestine I think "totally innocent people" is very much off the mark. I think both sides are wrong. I dont see how you can claim that the people that they attack are totally innocent, unless of course you have some research showing that every single kill made by the Israel Army was againist a totally innocent person.

As for the "Government" being responsible? Who elected the Government for Gods sake, and finally who crucified "Christ"??.

The people elected the government. Just because the irish people elected corrupt politicians does that make us corrupt ourselves?

"who crucified "Christ"?" - A group of jewish people who felt that he was becoming an annoyance. Pilot did not wish to execute him because he was doing no wrong. The group threatened Pilot that they would report him to Rome since his job was to stop anyone who threatened the Emeroers power. He was blackmailed into killing Christ.

If you wish to make statment like that at least understand what actually happened, you might also ask yourself this. Who betrayed Jesus 3 times after his death? Does that mean anything about christians. I think not just like that means nothing about jewish people

I respect peoples right too live in peace in their own Country, but I believe that a large proportion of individual misguided Jewish citizens do not. That opinion of mine is based on many years spent living amongst Jews. Not a mindless uneducated racist conclusion.

I think you will find that it is a mindless uneducated racist comment. Once again you did not live in Israel and therefore can not comment on the views of the large proportion of individualals who are misguided living in israel.

The "Middle East" region is the most dangerous "flashpoint" on Earth - Yet the Jewish Government refuses point blank. To listen to any other nation and if they do not they will pay the price.

They will pay the price?
Yeah right mate, the US wouldnt attack Israel because its there only friend next to Egypt in the Middle east.
The israel army is extremly powerful. Do you know it fought back advances from all neighboring states at the same time?
I'd argue that India is the most dangerous "flashpoint" on the earth due to the weapons of mass destruction on either side.

Both sides are wrong. I blame Europe and the US for establishing the state in the first place. So don't act all high and mighty when its the Western worlds fault in the first place.

Paddy20

Reply to Victor,

Stamford Hill, is an area in North London. Which has the largest population of members of the Orthodox Jewish Faith in the UK. It is not - Jewish only.

The other area in London with the largest number of ordinary Jewish faith Londoners is called "Golders Green" Where it is very unlikely that you would ever meet a member of the Orthodox Jewish faith, and I seriously doubt if any members of the Ortodox Jewish faith would live in Golders Green. Highlighting a serious division between the Jewish people living in London. A division that I had not personally become aware of before I lived in Stamford Hill, and asked my Jewish neighbours about the differance between a member of the ordinary Jewish faith and those who were members of the "Orthodox" Jewish faith. It was made very clear to me that the division was very deep and not something that someone born outside the of Judaism would ever understand.

As a humanatarian I was genuinely concerned and still am.

I hope the above will help any misunderstanding, re:- me being anti -Jewish which I am not, but I am so concerned about the possible outcome of the current crisis in Jerusalem, perhaps in my haste I failed to get my true feelings accross effectively without causing offence.

At the moment I am hoping that Tony Blair will be able to use his talents and diplomatic skills in the interests of Peace. The fact that his, parents originate from Ballyshannon in County Donegal, may be influencing my faith in him as I am a Donegalman.

Finally, I have not addressed all your questions but I will.

Yours,paddy20. N.B. If you have a problem with the difference between the different sections of the Jewish faith, then please ask your Jewish friends about it - because it came as a shocking revelation to me.

Fergus

I guess this thred is the "Bulliten Board" equivlent of a BOUNCY CASTLE

Yours,Fergus

Shinji

Er, hang on. What on earth does the fact that there are seperate sects of Judaism (much like, ooh, Christianity? Islam? Buddhism? Hinduism?) have to do with your patently anti-Semitic comments, exactly? How, exactly, does your astonishing knowledge and insight in this subject field excuse your earlier comments?

Yes, the Orthodox Jewish community is a bit worrying in ways; I do confess to being somewhat perturbed particularly by their education system, which teaches kids purely from the Torah and other books of Jewish faith and fails to teach modern subjects adequately, if at all. The fact that many Orthodox Jews also support various militant bodies is also a concern. However, these are specific social concerns; some of the statements you have made are downright racist.

If these things are what you have in mind, then I suggest that you learn to use the English language a bit more effectively and concisely, because otherwise you're going to look like a right bloody fool a lot of the time. If not, then I suggest you think long and hard about your belief systems.


(Oh, I must commend you however for your comments about Tony Blair's "talents and diplomatic skills" - certainly gave me a good chuckle. The more common phrase used here in Britain at the moment is "President Blair's astonishing ability at licking President Bush's behind and swan around the world while leaving the country to rot".)