are sky breaking EU laws?

kilian

finally somewhere that allows me to rant about sky... !

the point I'd like to make, is that I think Sky are breaking EU directives by not providing all the channels to ROI viewers (and vice-versa, they will be, by not providing irish channels to UK viewers).

what the EU says, basically, is that any product or service origionating in the EU must be freely available throughout the EU.

In other words, they have no legal right to refuse a UK FTV card just beacause of where you live!!!

I think Sky are behaving discracefully! I haven't signed up yet (even though I *really* want digital TV) and will suffer with my fuzzy terrestrial TV (as long as I can) until Sky start to offer everyone the same service!

chernobyl

Im not going to spend long answering your misguided post, as you have not done your research.

The channels that are in question, are made CA (Conditional Access) by their providers and not by BSkyB.

kilian

chernobyl I don't like being spoken to like that!!!!

I don't think it really makes too much difference who decided not to allow irish people to watch channels- I still think it's against EU directives.

All I was trying to do was spark off a conversation. There's no need to be so f***ing rude!!

chernobyl

No kilian, i was being short, you were just extremely rude!

/Side Note, we both share the same name, but i assume "Killian" is your first name as opposed to my surname.



There are broadcasting rights within the EU directive, so that if ITV1/2 were to broadcast here, those laws would be broken and RTE would love to hop on that.

Just because the Uk has those channels remember that britains pay th elisence fee for those and we dont.

kilian

ok, maybe you can clarify everything for me then-

how come:

-you can get UTV and channel 4 on NTL cable?

-you can also tune into them with a good ariel?

-I can get virtually all german terrestrial channels using an analog sattelite reciever.

chernobyl

Originally posted by kilian

-you can get UTV and channel 4 on NTL cable?

NTL include a fee in your bill for these channels.
UTV are "pro" becoming part of the irish EPG but ITV decided to encrypt it.

Originally posted by kilian

-you can also tune into them with a good ariel?

Thats not intentional, it just the power of the analogue transmitters that can broadcast over such a large area.

Originally posted by kilian

-I can get virtually all german terrestrial channels using an analog sattelite reciever.

Nope, you can get virtually all German Satellite channels with your reciever because these are FTA (Free To Air) channels, that are intended for Germans to view free of charge but as a Satellite has such a vast coverage area you too can get them free.

Chong

Im writing in response to the post by kilian earlier on the laws and by-laws. Seen as he is new a reader he may not have read all the jargin that has been posted here in the past on that subject and as chernobyl stated, if he would have read the info in the past he would have no call for this ranting. This topic has been raised many times and has been explained to the fullest by our frequent readers to the best of their ability. This forum is also not a place where you can simply rant and rave about the fore mentioned company. This forum is here to provide opinions and information and i personally found out the hard way. On lighter note please do so kilian and buy a digibox its worthwhile, and to be quite honest channel 5, channel4, and itv arent the greatest channels and sky a pretty good service superior to other company's.;)

kilian

thanks Big Willy. I'm sure it's all very complicated, I am a new reader, so I'm just going by my opinion, and the information I got looking into subscribing to sky.

I promise to stop ranting after this-
If they can broadcast on NTL I don't see why they can't broadcast on Sky- and I'm probably wrong, but It appears to be againts EU directves to restrict it in this way. I would have thought that the fact that the german channels broadcast FTA seems to back up my point- that the British channels should be available everywhere (remember the germans too pay a licence fee).

anyhows, am going to wait before subscribing to sky. I'm a big fan of channel 4 and I know if I got digital I wouldn't put up with the dogy terrestrial reception I get, when I know that there's a scrambled digital channel 4 signal coming in somewhere (it's an annoyinh thought, eh..)

just to finish- if i do get sky i'd definitely consider asking friends from england if they'd be prepared to get a card for me to use- I think this is completely legal... perhaps someone can clarify?

kilian

had a chance to look through other posts. It all seems to be about broadcasting rights etc.

I'm still not happy, and still angry- but i've calmed down! I must apologise for ranting and raving and being so ignorant.

it sounds awfully like the zones on DVDs; the big companies/studios are trying to restrict what we can watch. However the zones on DVDs didn't work beacause so many people just bought region free players. I suspect it'll be similar with Sky digital- everyone's going to get british FTV cards, or second hand digiboxes complete with card to watch the british channels... maybe eventually they'll realise that people will not put up with being told what they can and can't watch depending on where they live like this, and they'll work out a more acceptible situation!

I would still like to know how come the german terrestrial channels can broadcast free-to-air? I guess the law's different or something but if anyone could explain i'd appreciate it.

Charles Slane

Originally posted by kilian
I would still like to know how come the german terrestrial channels can broadcast free-to-air? I guess the law's different or something but if anyone could explain i'd appreciate it.

First of all Kilian, welcome to the boards !!

I know it wasn't the easiest introduction to the boards yet, but you probably hit on a few nerves that have been discussed several times, and therefore some people are a bit tired of answering the questions involved.

The answers to a lot of your questions are contained in earlier threads, and though it's a bit of a pain, it's worth delving into, because there's a lot of very comprehensive information and speculation to be found.

Just to give you my knowledge on the German free-to-air thing, there's loads of channels available on both analogue and digital on the Astra 1 satellites. The reason for this is that they're broadcast in the German language.

The rights for Europe seem to be sold in a combination of regions and languages. For the English language there's the complication of the UK and Ireland, but German channels seem to buy rights for broadcasting US shows in the German language.

To be honest, I've had these German channels for years, and have never watched a full US show that had been dubbed into German. So obviously the exclusive rights work well in that situation. The German channels don't have English subtitles, so who's going to watch them ?

As well as that, they always seem to be a season or two behind our channels.

I hope this clears up the "German thing" for you.

Don't give up on this forum - the posters are full of info and are normally very willing to share it with anyone. Maybe it's an off-night for some. We all have off-nights from time to time

Stick with us, and check out the earlier threads for the answers to your other questions.

Tony

Originally posted by Charles Slane

The rights for Europe seem to be sold in a combination of regions and languages. For the English language there's the complication of the UK and Ireland, but German channels seem to buy rights for broadcasting US shows in the German language.

Very true Charles, did you know you can actually buy Irish language rights for a programme? very handy for showing football etc cheaply. Armstrongs bought the Irish language rights to an Ireland football game to show it in one pub some years ago.

Regards Tony

kilian

i should probably explain that i speak german- which is why i still have an old analouge system which only picks up german stations...

anyway, not all programmes on german TV are broadcast in german. There's the odd one in english with german subtitles (rare but it does happen). Then I'm sure there's cencorship issues. I saw a clockwork orange on german TV when it was still banned in ireland, for example.

This harps back to what I said in another thread-if only DEV and Colins etc knew the mess they were creating when they went about setting up the free state:D
Presumably if We were still in the realm so to speak....English language,BBC and ITV etc could be FTA across Europe as the issue of rights for ROI wouldn't arise:p
mm

carrolls

Posted by chernobyl

Im not going to spend long answering your misguided post, as you have not done your research.

Ok, while chernobyl is possibly right in what he says in this case,
I think that he should be told to take a less agressive and patronising approach towards other people who post on this forum. It is not the first time he/she has done this.

This forum is used to clarify issues regarding Sky Digital,
not as chernobyl thinks, to pontificate on his percieved superior
knowledge of the various topics posted.

icdg

Another point to note regarding rights sales in English.

English speakers - especially the English themselves - are noteably intolerant regarding learning foreign langauges and watching foreign language TV. Whereas all of Europe learns English as a second language.

The moral of the story is - rights holders are much more concerned that continental Europe will watch programmes in English than they are that the English speaking peoples will watch programmes in foreign langauges. Hence they demand more stringent conditional access for UK broadcasters.

A quite dodgey-sounding explaination, but one which turngs out to be quite true in practice.

Genghis

Welcome Kilian!

Your posts do raise some points we have all discussed, and most of your thinking is correct - there is definitiely inconsistencies in the broadcasting of UK channels to Ireland. You would be mistaken to think that the issue is in any way black-and-white, and this leads to the confusion and anger you can see through this forum. Some of the questions I ask myself include:

- How come all the UK terrestrial channels 'sell' their rights to NTL, Chorus and others if it is technically illegal for them to broadcst here at all?

- What is the position with the 95% of other UK channels that broadcast to Ireland - Sky's package in Ireland includes over 100 channels, all of which are UK based - how can these broadcast here freely?

- If programming rights are at issue, what about BBC on Sky? Why some BBC TV channels, and not others? What's the deal the radio channels?

One thing you will come to appreciate is that the issue of programming rights is not actually the problem - as far as I can see broadcasting to ireland is not illegal per se - but if by doing so you hurt another broadcaster who has also paid for the rights, then they can sue you.

The real problem is the willingness of all concerned parties to work together to reach a solution. If RTE, BBC, ITV, C4, C5 and Sky all agreed to there being a common broadcsasting area accessible to all and called 'the UK and Ireland', this could be achieved. But what do you reckon the chances are?

BTW fair play to you for persisting - it's not easy to continue when you have been shot down on your first post!!

georgekildare

Hallo Killian,

The present situation is not in the interest of EU consumers and you are correct to rant and rave! Don't worry that for some reason a few people get irritated about this.

As an Irish expatriate resident in the Netherlands, I have pointed out in a previous thread to the forum that it is crazy that although I can freely purchase books, CDs or newspaper subscriptions from abroad, I am prevented from purchasing a subscription to satellite television programmes from the UK or Ireland, purely because I am resident in the Netherlands. In my view this contravenes several articles of the Treaty of Rome and Article 4 of the Convention of Human Rights and these should take precedent over outdated copyright laws that govern the present practices of the satellite TV providers.

I am just finishing a note, which I intend to submit to the Dutch members of the European Parliament and consumers organizations asking them to consider taking action to implement the following recommendations:

(i) Subscriptions to satellite television bouquets sold to consumers in any country of the EU should be available in all countries of the EU. Pricing should be uniform throughout the EU,
taking account of contributions already made by some consumers through national television licence fees.

(ii) Satellite providers should be compelled to allow all programmes transmitted by them to be available to subscribers everywhere within the EU. All non-copyrighted material (e.g. news and current affairs programmes) should be accessible immediately.

(iii) The rules governing copyright across national borders should be amended as soon as possible to take account of satellite television. National programme providers should be paid copyright
fees by the satellite providers. Equitable copyright fees would take account of the number of subscribers to the satellite service independent of location. (e.g. If a national programme provider
pays a given amount for a film, the additional amount to be paid by the satellite provider would be proportional to the number of subscribers to the channel to the number of consumers that can
receive the same programme terrestrially in the country of origin)

(iv) Satellite providers should be prohibited from restricting the design of receivers and electronics to receive their programmes and from encouraging restrictions through special subsidies.

(v) Consideration should be given to requiring the providers of satellite television to lease their infrastructure to competitors, to deliver alternative programme bouquets, as is the case
with several EU monopolies (e.g. telecommunications and energy)

George, you know of course that the reason rights are set up that way is for the rights owners to make more money.
But I agree with your angle on this one,unfortunately it won't be high up anyones ladder to do anything about it.

Also you are dealing here with services,the providers of which are condoning and working this system.Their channels are a product and like all producers of programmes and channels as it is their product, they have the right to sell it whatever way they wish.

I would be arrested for selling video's of some stuff I've seen been beamed into this country from sweden.Mind you it used be as easy to watch with the right decoder as say getting a bbc card.

You living in the Netherlands will know that you can have all the hash you want, but try and bring it back here and you know what happens!
My point there being that Suppliers of any product including tv can decide, like it or lump it whether or not to provide that product in more than one market.The copyright laws being there to protect the multiple markets.
Sky decided to get the satelite rights for showing movies in more than one country;ie the UK and ROI.I'm sure for a fee it would be feasible for that to extend to other countries- a fee that would keep the rights holders satisfied that they wouldn't lose any money from other country sales.
mm

georgekildare

Thanks for your contribution Madman. You make good points and I understand what you are saying. However, I would argue that :

(i) The provision of satellite television programmes is different from selling a normal article because it is relevant to the freedom of information guaranteed in the Treaty of Rome etc.

(ii) Refusing to sell an article purely on the grounds of the country of a person's residence within the EU is questionable. If I go into a bookshop, ask to buy a book and the salesman refuse because I don't live in the country, is this legal?

(iii) the question of porno or media material that is undesirable should be a matter for the authorities of each member state to pronounce on. The question is whether material will be let into the country, not whether something already within a country can be exported. this is alsothe case with hash.

(iv) There is no reason why there should be a difference in how the copyright laws for printed material and audiovisual material should operate.

Anyway I do think that these questions deserve attention from MEPs

Regards,

kilian

i have to agree with george here (thanks for backing me up by the way). But it's just incredibly complicated. It seems at the moment that if BBC, Channel 4 etc. broadcast completely free to air they'd be breaking current copyright laws, but by restricting viewing depending on where you live (as they are at the moment)they're breaking the treaty of rome and other EU directives...

it's a bit of a catch 22 situation, and i think it'll take time, but eventually the law will have to be changed. More and more people will be taking contract free digiboxes abroad, and the situation will become out of control for bbc, sky etc.

here's an interesting question, actually:
it's perfectly possible to buy your own *contract free* digibox in england, get a bbc card, or sky subscription sent to a UK address and then bring it abroad. In fact unless digiboxes or BBC viewing cards were made illegal in other countries i presume this is also legal- so it's possible to watch BBC, Channel 4, ITV abroad. I'm sure a lot of people already do this, which means the forementioned channels are in practise broadcasting throughout europe, and are technically breaking the copyright/ broadcasting rights laws... ???

I have found companies on the web advertising contract free digiboxes for this purpose- specifically for british people to bring abroad. (of course you still need a british address to get a FTV card or Sky subscription).

here's an interesting website of a shop in england:
http://www.satelliteuk.com/contents.htm
they also offer macrovision removers (can be VERY usefull!!)

Agreed,George,
Just in addition-when I referred to a material or service provider not providing that service or good in another country-I meant simply not supplying it for export.
I did not mean refusing to sell something over the counter to a foreigner.
Hmmm you can get "poteen" in shannon duty free which has not for sale in Ireland on the lable(horrible stuff-the real thing is better trust me:laugh: )

Sky are simply refusing to allow a subscription to a non UK and IRL address.
Do let us all know how you get on
mm

georgekildare

Hi Killian and Madman,

Of course you are right. Although it is a hassle, everybody can get hold of a Digibox with a BBC card, including me. While I was on holidays in Scotland last July I answered an ad in a local advertisement paper and purchased a new Panasonic digibox with BBC card for 168 pounds. I met the seller at a fast food restauraunt on the motorway. I gave him the crisp notes and he gave me the illegal merchandise. It felt as if I was a drug dealer!

I presently have a normal satellite receiver + digibox on a steerable dish, and am contemplating whether I can persuade my Dutch wife that I need to fork out yet again for a second digibox with Irish subscription. But I'll see how things settle down when the Irish stations come on-line.

Although the legal situation is extremely complex and there are a lot of vested interests involved, I am willing to bet that there are many gray-market digibox in Brussels, both owned by MEPs and by EU civil servants. So this question will have some sympathy there.

I don't know when I shall get around to circulating my "campaign document" but I shall certainly keep everyone informed of the result.

kilian

do definitely keep us informed george! it's a worthwhile cause, and hopefully the EU will be more sympathetic than sky or BBC seem to be!

good luck; you have my support anyway!