Preoccupation with Flat Rate

Hannibal_12

Let me preface this by saying I understand why so many people want flat rate as it has been discussed here before.
But I am very concerned that broadband does not seem to be gaining as much attention as its flat rate counterpart. To be perfectly honest I dont want flat rate if I'm at 56k, I'm sick to death of 56k. There are so many limitations imposed on you when you browse the net at that snail like rate. I'm sure most of you are aware that, like everything else, the internet is getting bigger and unfortunately our bandwith is not. Everytime I see a file that is 8/9 mb in size I have to consider whether or not I will download it since it effectively renders the connection useless because you cannot do another task without slowing down your browsing and the download.
Nearly april 2002 and still no Broadband.

Dustaz

Originally posted by Hannibal_12
Let me preface this by saying I understand why so many people want flat rate as it has been discussed here before.
But I am very concerned that broadband does not seem to be gaining as much attention as its flat rate counterpart.

Its swings and roundabouts, therell be postings, news and articles about broadband some other week or month and nothing about flat rate...It seems to be a cyclical thing:)

To be perfectly honest I dont want flat rate if I'm at 56k, I'm sick to death of 56k. There are so many limitations imposed on you when you browse the net at that snail like rate. I'm sure most of you are aware that, like everything else, the internet is getting bigger and unfortunately our bandwith is not. Everytime I see a file that is 8/9 mb in size I have to consider whether or not I will download it since it effectively renders the connection useless because you cannot do another task without slowing down your browsing and the download.

Personally and selfishly i agree with you 100%, I have absolutly no interest in 56k, be it flat rate or not. I dont see the point of it at all (for myself - but for SoHos and SMEs and a lot of residential users too). However there is a demand/Need for it, and there has been for 12 years. Whether you or I want it, doesnt change the fact that it is badly needed.

Nearly april 2002 and still no Broadband.

Or Flat Rate. Or Full LLU.

Tellox

One step at a time m8.
but unfortuntly, we cant even reach that pace.

mike65

Flat rate is about cost pure and simple, dail-up flat rate being a lot cheaper than broadband.

Mike.

kamobe

I was *slated* in another thread for saying flat rate at 56k was kinda pointless.....

I concede, that away from from major towns and cities, flat rate would be nice.

I woudlnt bother signing up for a flat rate access if it came out tomrrow, because it would probably be a yearly contract, and we'll hopefully have affordable dsl by then....

56k is too slow.

I even find the 128k up offered by eircom is way too slow....
But that's a battle for another day - still double what I'd have otherwise :}

I think i was accused of being selfish for wanting broadband above flat rate too... I reckon broadband would instantly benefit many more people/buisness's then dial-up flat rate would...

Ruu_Old

Flat rate is seen as a stepping stone to broadband, jus hope when it comes we wont have to wait an eternity to move on from it

kamobe

Originally posted by Ruu
Flat rate is seen as a stepping stone to broadband..

See the thing is,

There's no reason why there needs to be a stepping stone....
Not like some guy in the states suddenly invented this brand new risqué technology.

DSL has been tried and tested for years! No major construction involved, just a little work at the local exchange.... Plus they've been trialling the bloody service for the past three years. We know they don't *want* to introduce dsl, but, if they roll out flat-rate first, it'll probably be to delay dsl.

Stonemason

For us people that live in the country flatrate would be a stepping stone if they suported ISDN.56K modems are pointless and wont entice more net users simply because its so slow and anoyoing that most people say sod this and bugger off to the pub or whatever.The ones that go on about it more often than not are the ones that set their download programs to run all night to download whatever.I would like to dowload large files too but this is only part of the picture. 56k takes away what i consider to be a very important part of net life i.e interaction with people and places in real time.I would consider getting ISDN again if we had flatrate on the condition that i could use both channels for dowloading without being penalised.Just to make it clear im not happy that even with flaterate due to my location i would be forced to use an outdated technology such as ISDN but if i wait for broadband id be waiting a very very long time.



Stone

Tellox

we dont even have flat rate 36.6k,yet your complaining about not having flat rate ISDN..

acous

im sick of this, read some of dahamsta's posts on the subject.

flat rate is a stepping stone for consumers, not for the technology.

Stonemason

Posts and i also agreed to an extent that flatrate should be a stepping stone.But i also think that without a decent connection you will not generate the kind of intrest needed.Most posts here usal end up quoting what has happend in other countrys in regard to roll out paths.I have never been one to follow blindly if you can learn from other peoples mistakes then we should not dogedly follow what everyone else has done.In regard to the remark about 36k,56K is the standard in this country and why should 56k users get flatrate and not 64k users makes no sense unless you buy into Eircom highspeed BS and beleive it is some how special it is marginaly better than 56k for downloads (single channel).It would be no harder to set up flatrate ISDN Eircom could still make more money through line rental.The general belief is that intraducing flaterate will generate more users i dont happen to agree with this in Irelands case.



Stone

yellum

Originally posted by kamobe
because it would probably be a yearly contract, and we'll hopefully have affordable dsl by then

Now, search this forum and aother irish forums with the text thats in bold and note the date. People have been waiting for adsl for 3 maybe 4 years. I know one person who was on an Eircom trial 3 years ago and he said it would be available for all within 6 months !

Flat Rate and Broadband should be out. We should have a choice. Its not one or the other, it should be both.

SkepticOne

To my knowledge, if you can do flat-rate 56K, there's no technical reason why you can't do flat-rate ISDN 64K. The slightly higher data rate would translate to a slightly higher cost although this would be marginal.

This is my understanding of it: once both a voice call and an ISDN call get beyond the local exchange, they are transported via the same 64K data line. It is just that 56K modems are an inefficient way of utilising the 64K line. We have a fully digital system here, the only analogue bit is the bit running from the exchange to your house.

Dustaz

Originally posted by yellum



Flat Rate and Broadband should be out. We should have a choice. Its not one or the other, it should be both.

dahamsta

I reckon the whole thing can be equated with most markets. Let's have a go off the car market: I have a budget, and I want to buy a car. There are lots of cars out there, and there are lots of factors involved in deciding; such as price, requirements, and interest.

Me, I like cars, so I'll extend my budget, possibly even further than I should. I'll buy something fast or flashy. People who aren't particularly fussed about cars might buy something a bit less flashy, and spend the remainder on luxuries. People who have children will probably buy an MPV. Farmers will buy jeeps. Rich people will buy a Merc for the look of it.

And there are exceptions. People who have children might say damn the children, I want a flash car. Rich people who don't care about "the look" and don't care about cars mightn't buy one at all. Me, I mightn't be able to afford the Lamborghini Diablo, so I might settle for the Mini Cooper. Et cetera.

In the example above, there are lots of choices, lots of deciding factors, lots of different people. In the case of Internet access, there are far less choices, but there are just as many deciding factors. There's still plenty of variations on wealth, interest and requirements.

Me, I want broadband. I want broadband so much it hurts. When broadband is available for less than the cost of my phone bill, I will get it, there is absolutely no question about that. I'll sell one of my rigs to get it if I have to, and that's a heck of a sacrifice for me to make. So will most of you, because you're Internet junkies, you want speed, you want always-on.

But here's the thing: You're in the minority. In fact, you're in a very small minority. Most consumers use the Internet to check their email, surf a few pages, and then they go back to the telly. Most consumers don't know what broadband is, and if they did, they wouldn't care. It's too expensive. It's not value for money. It's not worth it.

Some of them will some day feel it /is/ worth it, and they will upgrade. Some day metered and unmetered Internet access will disappear, and they'll /have/ to upgrade. But that won't happen for ten years. Now ask yourself this: Should their /right/ to be able to access the Internet be less important than yours? Are they less important than you?

They're not. Flat-rate Internet access is essential to the development of Ireland as a connected nation. This is a fact, not a hypothesis.

adam

Stonemason

Id counter with it shouldn’t cost as much as a BMW for a decent net access hehe couldn’t resist that. I think we all agree that Broadband is on the way and flat rate should be here now but trying to get Eircom to give up the goose that laid the golden egg is going to be a long winded uphill struggle.Im an inpatient person by nature and the thought of going through the tortures of getting eircom to let flat rate happen and then having to go through something similar for true broadband is stretching my patience to breaking point. As Dahamsta pointed out we are a minority but judging from the people who come into our shop 40% of them are asking what would i need to get on the net (modems being a constant seller) add to this that i can no longer connect to the cashel server between 6pm and 1am id say that minority is growing rapidly. But will their intrest wain once they get a taste of 56k land ?.



Stone

http://www.leo.org/information/freizeit/fun/cars.html

Fallschirmjager

Ok, here is my tupence worth...

LOAD RANT
INITIALISE RANT
BEGIN RANT...

do you not see what they are doing, we are haggling over if this is on or this is out. Jeasus, what is wrong with having it all. We have all be mentally abused by the phone companies and the 'please sir, can i have some more..' mentality. I want speed. I want it for web, games, websites etc and i accept that i (like you) are a top end user. I expect to pay for that. I expect Eircom to earn money on that. I am not a communist FFS!!!, everyone has to earn a crust-- BUT 95 EURO a MONTH METERED FOR ADSL-- I THINK NOT. But we are now reduced to squabbling about flat rate or ISDN. They are the same. They are about access. I would argue that the reason they watch TV is it is so frustrating to use the web in Ireland. It is too complicated. THe advantage of always on for the average punter is ...dont think, dont worry about pressing 15,000 buttons and not using your phone for 200 hours because Microsoft has to download 1mb to update your system, dont worry about waiting hours to do anything..just switch the pc/net station on -- AND LEAVE IT ON- receive your email NOW, use video over the line, use the WEB as a PHONE-- all these things become FACT with ADSL. I think you will find that we have a glass ceiling on web access and this is the mentality of EIRCOM at the moment : people wont want adsl and we will loose a lot of money. Thank Christ they were not in charge of the space program...lets not go to the moon, no one has done it before or wants to go.

FACT : ADSL will start slow, phone access has taken 25 years to become so basic ( I remember my parents had to get a letter fromm the monister to get on the ****ing queue to get a phone -- NO JOKE: it took six months!!!- TO GET A PHONE, why cos they didnt think they would earn money, no one wanted on)-- you would be considered insane not to have one now - or 2 including your mobile. TV has taken 40 years to reach the same acceptance. Would you watch TV if they charged you be the monite or restricted you to 100 hors per month -- Like **** you would. The wab has taken 10 to reach the same level of acceptance but now we are reduced to the arguement of 'i dont think it will be cost efficient' or 'please can we have a little' -- I SAY NO!!! Why cant we have it all. Why cant people be given the access and they will use it. to quote a great film 'BUILD IT AND THEY WILL COME'

PEople need everything. They need all types of access. it is like the traffic problem, lets use the bus, no lets use the train, lets not use the car-- reality: the only solution is access to all, and you have to pay A FAIR PRICE...only then will it work, you know it and i know it

SO : LETS STOP NIT PICKING BONES over metered/unmetered/flat reate/2 phones/ISDN. Lets argue to everyone NOW that we need it all. USE YOUR VOTE- I know what i will be asking for when they come to my door. USe the CENSUS to vote with your feet. We need to pressure the POWERS they force activity. These threads sadden me each day becuase we (ME INCLUDED) is reduced to petty innuendo and hearsay to try and get access to information, something every democracy is built on. Now expalin to me where it says that i can only get it at 56K?

end rant;
close

PS anyone hear about ADSL in Blessington...anyone...cmon anyone

Fallschirmjager

PPS the logo is cos im a Half Life Day of Defeat player, not some nazi...relax

seamus

It would also be nice if you would lose that sig image - it's too big!!!. Ironically it's posted in a thread about 56K. I've commented on this before, and dahamsta's pretty much said it all.
Actually using a line in a letter I recently wrote to PCLive! mag (that's another story ) - "The telcos complain that FRIACO isn't comercially viable. When the nolimits service was started, demand outstripped supply, so much so, that they had to stop accepting new subscriptions, and remove some existing customers. If that's not an indicator of a profitable, untapped market, then I don't know what is..."
As was said, broadbandophiles are severely in the minority. IOFFL are fighting for the entire country, not just us net addicts.

Paddy20

Originally posted by seamus
It would also be nice if you would lose that sig image - it's too big!!!. Ironically it's posted in a thread about 56K. I've commented on this before, and dahamsta's pretty much said it all.
Actually using a line in a letter I recently wrote to PCLive! mag (that's another story ) - "The telcos complain that FRIACO isn't comercially viable. When the nolimits service was started, demand outstripped supply, so much so, that they had to stop accepting new subscriptions, and remove some existing customers. If that's not an indicator of a profitable, untapped market, then I don't know what is..."
As was said, broadbandophiles are severely in the minority. IOFFL are fighting for the entire country, not just us net addicts.

Nice one, Seamus,

Well stated and straighforward.
I agree with you 100%

More of the same please?.

Yours, paddy20:)

Fallschirmjager

OK, before ye all get a bit angrey..the sig is gone...

and to your point about flatrate..if you read my rant you would have realised that was my point


now 1 final thing to the people who belive that we only need flatrate here is my question:

you were getting annoyed about a large image in a sig...is a 56k line going to improve that even if 'free'? methinks not

seamus

Sorry I never read your post because you marked it as a 'rant' (which I'm well guilty of ). I wasn't getting at you fallsch..., sorry if it came out like that. IOFFL is not about improving speed, it's about improving quality. Fine at 56K, nothing is lightening fast, but every little helps, such as a decent line quality. With flatrate, your speed isn't too critical either, because you're paying the same no matter how long it takes to download web pages, that's the point.

(For the record, I'm on a ~5mbit satellite connection here, but large pictures in the middle of threads kinda annoy me - and the admins. )

sceptre

Originally posted by Fallschirmjager
now 1 final thing to the people who belive that we only need flatrate

Not a single poster in this thread has said that though. Which is odd, considering that here's the place where people would be defending a preoccupation with flatrate if such a preoccupation did exist.

IrelandOffline's position as an organisation is clear
(from www.irelandoffline.org):

• Universal flat rate (unmetered) access to the internet for all users.
• Complete Local Loop Unbundling (LLU) by Eircom.
• Universal access to broadband services for all users.

Given the number of lines that have actually been unbundled in the UK, I don't believe the LLU issue will make that much dirfference to either flat-rate or broadband in the early market (initially the cities and towns will be covered by broadband, LLU may make some difference to the underpopulated areas).

In any case there's the sterling work being carried out by IrishWAN (www.irishwan.org) to help people both in the near future, partly as a stopgap, and later, in particular for people outside the major towns at that point.

I don't see a preoccupation with flat-rate (or broadband for that matter). The work that's being carried out (behind the scenes) isn't putting one ahead of the other. Broadband looks closer at the moment perhaps as Eircom are still convinced that there's "no demand for flat-rate" (perhaps merely judging by the average time spent on the Net by the average punter in Ireland). I for one need flat-rate more than broadband at the moment (student budget won't stretch to broadband until the price hits somewhere close to the current UK price) but can see a real need for both.