Please tell me that I am wrong

vampyre

I rang the regulators office as I have done from time to time, and was told that no company has applied to offer flat rate 56k at all for ages, and not since the consultation document. So I presume that translates as only interested in broadband but everyone accepts that will be an achingly slow roll out. Please tell me that I am wrong and someone who isnt well known to us like esat has applied. I know eircom are a business not a moral or charitable enterprise but as we are their prisoners can we be decently treated. I wonder do prisoners get net access because if they do it is paid for by the state unlike Paddy 20's

stormkeeper

Esat had a flat-rate service agaes agao, but it went bust about this time last year...

vampyre

Yes being a former customer of snl I am well aware of that pantomime. I left as it was dire, too slow and always disconnecting. They had that service in expectation of flat rate wholesale, applied for it couldnt pay eircoms asking price and that was that. But time has moved on broad band is allegedly on its way and still nobody else has applied to provide the 56k service. So my inference is we have sod all chance of getting the service as the other companies have lost interest and eircon sure dont want to injure their money spinner.How misreable. What I dont understand is why there isnt the emphasis here there is in other countries about having a large customer base. They just dont seem to care at all here.

Paddy20

Originally posted by vampyre
I rang the regulators office as I have done from time to time, and was told that no company has applied to offer flat rate 56k at all for ages, and not since the consultation document. So I presume that translates as only interested in broadband but everyone accepts that will be an achingly slow roll out. Please tell me that I am wrong and someone who isnt well known to us like esat has applied. I know eircom are a business not a moral or charitable enterprise but as we are their prisoners can we be decently treated. I wonder do prisoners get net access because if they do it is paid for by the state unlike Paddy 20's

Vampyre,

Never ever take literally, what anyone tells you "Verbally" on the phone it is NOT worth the price of a phone call, from a "Legal" perspective.

Always, Ask for their name, Job title, and if "THEY" are qualified enough to give you an "INFORMED" truthful reply - This usually throws the "idiots".

But, under the "Freedom of information Act" you can then ask them too confirm to "YOU" in writing - their pack of lying balderdash... If they state they will only reply in that manner to a written letter from you -then comply, and if you do not get the truth in writing "Officially" by return or at least within 7 (Seven) worhing days. Then you have them in a corner, and you should consult your "Solicitor" or "Legal Aid office" or Citizens information service. As "Provided" you have a copy of your letter to them stating that you want the information because you are "entitled" to it "in Law" under the aforementioned freedom of information act - and " Always "Register" any letters you post to Government departments or individuals in positions of authority - and you will be pleasently "surprised" how effective the old "REGISTERED POST" trap can be.

You will suddenly be treated - with some respect - as you should have been in the "first place" Here endeth lesson.

Yours, paddy20. N.B. Keep up the good work as I am about to retire completely for good - finito ??.. and too hell with EIR-CON, the Government and the rest of Irelands "Corrupt" elite "Golden Circle/Mafia. The B*******??.:cool:

Dustaz

Vampyre, thats the sad truth. Not only are eircom not providing a flate rate service but noone else seems to want to either.

The state of play with flate rate is that the regulator has the power to step in to price disputes between an OLO (such as Esat) and Eircom. She can only do this if one party makes a complaint. To date no OLO has made an official complaint to her about this issue.

I think some of the reason that noone has made a move yet is because of the eircom court case which deals with LLU prices.

Someone correct me if im talking rubbish:)

stormkeeper

Is it just me, or are they... Scared of Eircom?

Dustaz

[conjecture]
I think they are more scared of eircoms prices. Esat applied for LLU in limerick and got it, but they seem to be focused on offering DSL to the business community in that exchange.

Its also possible that other companys are waiting for the outcome of the court case before proceeding with any flat rate offerings
[/conjecture]

stormkeeper

Lets hope the court case works in our favour, as I for one am sick of having to pay an arm and a leg for the internet...

pete

This is pretty much all off-topic, but I couldn't let it lie....

Originally posted by paddy20


Vampyre,

Never ever take literally, what anyone tells you "Verbally" on the phone it is NOT worth the price of a phone call, from a "Legal" perspective.

Always, Ask for their name, Job title, and if "THEY" are qualified enough to give you an "INFORMED" truthful reply - This usually throws the "idiots".

But, under the "Freedom of information Act" you can then ask them too confirm to "YOU" in writing - their pack of lying balderdash...

Alternatively, you could try treating them with a modicum of respect, instead of automatically assuming that you're dealing with a mindless drone whose sole purpose in life is to frustrate you at every turn.

If they state they will only reply in that manner to a written letter from you -then comply, and if you do not get the truth in writing "Officially" by return or at least within 7 (Seven) worhing days. Then you have them in a corner, and you should consult your "Solicitor" or "Legal Aid office" or Citizens information service. As "Provided" you have a copy of your letter to them stating that you want the information because you are "entitled" to it "in Law" under the aforementioned freedom of information act

Alternatively, you could try visiting the website of the Office of the Information Commissioner to find out exactly what information you are entitled to under the FOI act, and how to go about obtaining it.

Apart from the fact that they supply a sample application letter, did you know that each organisation covered by the Act has an FOI Officer who will arrange assistance for you in making your application? In many cases, the information sought can be made available without recourse to the Act, saving everyone time and bother.

- and " Always "Register" any letters you post to Government departments or individuals in positions of authority - and you will be pleasently "surprised" how effective the old "REGISTERED POST" trap can be.

You will suddenly be treated - with some respect - as you should have been in the "first place" Here endeth lesson.

Of course, an easier way to ensure you're treated with respect is to treat whoever you're dealing with in the same way.

vampyre

OT yes but true. i am without fail polite and charming and would say it is true that more flies are caught with honey than vinegar. However I will sue if thats what it takes in a particular situation so i am not either cowardly or stupid but most times effective. Beligerence is unattractive. It was an informal chat, I got names positions etc. Its just a shame that nothing short of a natural disaster (plague springs to mind) will gett he better of eircom

Dustaz

Originally posted by vampyre
. Its just a shame that nothing short of a natural disaster (plague springs to mind) will gett he better of eircom

Actually, a proper competitive market will get the better of them (of course they will be well placed to do well in one, with the head start they have).

Please stop blaming them. They are a private company. They have a right to make as much money as they can. The government are the people who are mainly to blame for the current situation (well, previous Govts anway).

Paddy20

To Pete,

You are entitled, to your opinion, as am I.

paddy20.

dahamsta

Please stop blaming them. They are a private company. They have a right to make as much money as they can.

I know, I know, we've been over this before, but I honestly find that indefensible Dustaz. I absolutely agree that Eircom should not carry the full weight of blame for the circumstances, but there is no way in good faith I could "stop blaming them". It's wrong that they have a monopoly, and that is not their fault, but their consistent abuse of that monopoloy is something that they should be utterly ashamed of. It's an abuse of power. It's wrong.

adam

pete

Eircom (or rather, its board of directors) don't just have a right to make as much money as they can - they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to make as much money as possible on their behalf*.

Where the line between maximising their returns and abusing their position is drawn is another argument altogether



*I'm open to correction on this, but as far as I'm aware if they were not to do so and the company went under or lost a lot of money as a result of their inaction (as in it could be shown in court that they did not honour this fiduciary responsibility) the director(s) in question could be held personally liable for losses incurred by shareholders. But don't quote me on that.

Typedef

Originally posted by dahamsta

I know, I know, we've been over this before, but I honestly find that indefensible Dustaz. I absolutely agree that Eircom should not carry the full weight of blame for the circumstances, but there is no way in good faith I could "stop blaming them". It's wrong that they have a monopoly, and that is not their fault, but their consistent abuse of that monopoloy is something that they should be utterly ashamed of. It's an abuse of power. It's wrong.

adam

I tend to agree with adam.
Eircom would not have the dominant position they do in the Irish market if the state had not protected and nourished Telecom Eireann for years and it seems a little skewed for a fiasco of a privitisation of state assets to hold back this country and this country's pstn infrastructure. When it was a state monopoly it 'had' to provide a public service, and now that it is simply an monopoly it 'has' to do nothing, that is why it 'has' to be put under pressure so that 'we' the Irish people and users of the internet in Ireland get what 'we' want.

Dustaz

Nope, nope and nope again.

Pete is right, they have a responsibility to make as much money as possible. What they are doing might seem unfair (it does to me) but you nailed it when you said its not their fault. TBH, they have come nowhere near the underhanded tricks that other companies have resorted too (take mircrosoft for example).

Now that there is a glimmer of light at the end of the LLU tunnel, they know they wont have thier unopposed dominant market postion forever, so the onus is even greater on them to milk it while they can. Watch them roll out a Flat rate connection the second they feel that it makes more sense to do it than bleed punters while they can, it will happen.

I suppose basically what im saying is, yes they shoulder some blame but 99% of CEO's in the world would be doing the same thing (well, some forward thinking people might be planning FRIACO and BroadBand rollouts so that they are ready to go once it becomes nessecary to protect market postion - tbh, i cant see Eircom doing this)

(ps Typedef, i think your agreeing with me, not adam )

dahamsta

A fiduciary responsibility to shareholders is no excuse for unethical and immoral (and some might say "illegal") behaviour. It's called society and humanity boys.

Do you honestly believe that if Eircom's business practises came to light, the shareholders last year - the Irish people - wouldn't be up in arms about it?

I don't view - will never view - responsibilty to shareholders as a valid excuse for Eircom's behaviour. Never. You will never change my mind on this.

adam

pete

I agree 100% - their abuse of their position is inexcusable. I was just pointing out that the argument isn't whether they should / shouldn't try to make as much money as possible - they have to try. It's their job.

But there are serious questions to be answered about how they go about it.

vampyre

I absolutely agree that they are there to make money but without choice we are their prisoners. The ESB dont get away with much because they are bound to act responsibly. If your bank sucks you can walk away from it, with eircom you cant even complain or they will get you for it, ie chargring you to fix faults on the line and stuff like that. It is just pitiful that their licence allows them to operate like this.

Son of Blam

Originally posted by pete
Eircom (or rather, its board of directors) don't just have a right to make as much money as they can - they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to make as much money as possible on their behalf*.

*I'm open to correction on this, but as far as I'm aware if they were not to do so and the company went under or lost a lot of money as a result of their inaction (as in it could be shown in court that they did not honour this fiduciary responsibility) the director(s) in question could be held personally liable for losses incurred by shareholders. But don't quote me on that.

Just a reminder that Eircom don't have any public shareholders anymore. They became a private company on the 26th of February 2002. Joe Public who bought Eircom shares now no longer owns Eircom shares, he owns a check. The value of this check may or may not be equal to his initial investment in Eircom.

-Son of Blam

dahamsta

They still have shareholders though Son of Blam. George Soros and Tony O'Reilly.

adam