Euros and cents

Yoda

Dear colleagues,

I have written an open letter to the Minister for Finance, Charlie McCreevy, about the serious problem we have in Ireland, namely, that the false plural without -s is used with the words "euro" and "cent" in Ireland and that this bad grammar is given to us all hundreds of times of day on television every day.

If you have interest in sociolinguistic rights, see http://www.evertype.com/standards/euro/open-letter.pdf

Spread the word.

Draco

Both are perfectly acceptable forms for the plural. Look up the documents on the EU web site and you'll see there that you can use either.

Yoda

No, Draco, they are not. I know that "euro and cent" has been used as a plural, but that grammatical fabrication was based on a misunderstanding of the intent of a European Council regulation. It was not made in consultation with anyone with any sort of linguistic expertise, and in other countries, they have rightly refused to admit such a change to their languages. We, on the other hand, look like a bunch of dopes to the rest of the English-speaking world, who will have none of it. Ever.

Please read my open letter, which contains the facts of the matter, so that we may discuss this further.

Sand

Languages are constructed by the people who speak them. As such theyre open to change. I fail to see the major problem or how a decree from The Minister of Finance will solve things. Our leader for example, like many of his fellow citizens, is prone to the odd "wha?" and "dis". The sky has yet to fall.

Cake Fiend

I fail to see the severity of this minor error.

My 2 cents.

Yoda

Languages do indeed develop an change, naturally, across time. In this case, a European Council regulation has been misinterpreted by the Irish government, and RTÉ, reasonably enough, has taken up the practice because they seem to think that they should do what the government wants. But it's based in a MISTAKE which other countries have not made. Why should France, Portugal and Spain be "allowed" to say "euros" (which they do) while we, one small country in the English-speaking world, should not? Everyone of us was taken aback by this "rule" when we first heard it, and there's a growing body of "excuses" (urban legends basically) defending it. But there is no defence for it. It's a mistake, and it needs to be corrected.

If this were a natural development in Hiberno-English I should not be complaining. But it's a bureaucratic error. Depluralizing "cents" is simply ridiculous. This "change" is like a virus! And we're being reinfected with it each day on television till we're becoming used to it. And so we'll travel to the US or Canada, and try to buy a hotdog for "one dollar and fifty cent" (as has already been made by at least one RTÉ news presenter) and we're just going to look like dolts.

I've raised this on Boards.ie to try to raise support. Read the open letter. If you think it's sensible, say "euros and cents", and tell others to do so.

What could McCreevy do? He could tell RTÉ to change its policy in line with the recommendations of the Commission's own English-language section of the Translation Service. They are responsible for advising the Commission on English-language use. And they support my efforts totally.

SheroN

who gives a ****?....yoda obvisouly...but who other than that?

strat

Originally posted by SheroN
who gives a ****?....yoda obvisouly...but who other than that?

not me anyway but i do prefer "euro" and "cent" as plural
how ever good/bad it make me grammar

Draco

Yer talking sh1te Yoda:

http://europa.eu.int/comm/translation/en/stygd/enstyle.htm#tocref2_53 (see section 12.12)

http://europa.eu.int/euro/html/rubrique-cadre5.html?pag=rubrique-defaut5.html|lang=5|rubrique=221|chap=1 (see second link: Plural of the words "euro" and "cent" in non-legislative documents)

Walls

Originally posted by Yoda
If you have interest in sociolinguistic rights, see http://www.evertype.com/standards/euro/open-letter.pdf

Spread the word.

Rights? In what sense? (or should that be cents) What is the threat by a deviation in the use of a word?

WhiteWashMan

i think yoda and alias bob should share a bouncy room together

Yoda

Originally posted by Draco
Yer talking sh1te Yoda:

http://europa.eu.int/comm/translation/en/stygd/enstyle.htm#tocref2_53 (see section 12.12)

http://europa.eu.int/euro/html/rubrique-cadre5.html?pag=rubrique-defaut5.html|lang=5|rubrique=221|chap=1 (see second link: Plural of the words "euro" and "cent" in non-legislative documents)

Well golly, Draco you couldn't be more wrong. Did you bother to read the open letter I wrote to the minister? Because I cite both of these documents. The first, the English-language Style Guide, is from the English-language section of the European Commission's Translation Service, and it states clearly that when translating legislation, use whatever plural they used since obviously a translator should not change legislative texts. But it also says that when writing to and for the general public, the natural plurals in -s should be used. This means that the Irish government should be producing documents (like tax forms, information sheets, etc.) using "euros" and "cents". It means that RTÉ should be using the natural plurals.

But these facts have not yet made their way up the chain of command, it seems.

The second document is a list of the "legislative" plurals. It shows quite clearly the result of this debacle. In French, Portuguese, and Spanish, the plural is "euros". In English, the plural is "euro". Why? Because four years ago somebody representing Ireland did not have the wit or the courage to stand up for common-sense language.

It is shameful. It is wrong. I am working to change it. If any of you agree with me, please, do what you can to make some noise about it. Write an e-mail to RTÉ. The e-mail addresses of a lot of the presenters is available for instance. Complain in your bank. Do whatever you can.

SantaHoe

I can't say it bothers me either way, usualy I'll say "45 euro and 63 cents" or whatever comes to mind.
An interesting read... good luck.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Don't you think "Euro" and "Cent" sound better?

Anyone know the Irish for each that would be interesting?

amp

SI R A BORD?
SI R A PLAINOR?
NOE!
SI PEDANTICMAN!

People say what they want to say. If I told you I sometimes call a 5 euro note "five quid" would you call the police?

Jesus pick a more worthy cause to get excited about.

Stephen

I usually say euros and cents rather than euro and cent. I work in a shop too, so I end up saying it an awful lot :chinese:

Shinji

It is shameful. It is wrong.

No it is bloody not. Nobody is forcing anyone else to use any particular form of the plural, but the Government has decided to use Euro and Cent. This isn't a problem. They can call the currency whatever they want - as can you.

As Amp said, was it a problem when people said "five quid" or "five pound" instead of "five pounds"? Of course not.

Might I humbly suggest that you may wish to investigate the possibility of having that rod removed from your rectum, and if you're that desperate to fight over a worthwhile cause, you'll find the thread about Travellers further down the page, or plenty of threads about the Palestinians on the Politics board.

Yoda

Originally posted by Ahamah
Don't you think "Euro" and "Cent" sound better?

I do not. In the first place, "cent" has its natural plural "cents" attested for at least 350 years, and indeed the natural plural "euros" comes easily to most people except for the brainwashing they have been subjected to by the media.

Anyone know the Irish for each that would be interesting?

It ought to be "eoró" and "ceint", but with regard to Council Regulation (EC) No. 1103/97, the Irish government assumed (wrongly) that not only should the English terms be immune to natural grammar, but it also assumed (wrongly) that normal Irish orthography and grammar should not be "allowed" and that therefore the Irish also should be "euro" and "cent", apparently with their English pronunciation.

Yoda

Amp suggested that I was pedantic.
People say what they want to say. If I told you I sometimes call a 5 euro note "five quid" would you call the police?

Jesus pick a more worthy cause to get excited about.

I have used the slang term "quid" as well, Amp. I call a 5 euro note a "fiver" too. These terms, however, are natural to our language.

The stripping of the plural from the word "cents" and "euros" has been done in Ireland, but not in France, Portugual, or Spain, because of a mistaken interpretation of some European Council legislation which sought to ensure that everybody called the currency the same thing. This was not, one must assume, an attempt to interfere with the spelling or grammar of natural languages. It was enacted to ensure that the simple forms EURO and EYPO would appear on the banknotes without having to clutter the things with lists in different languages.

That government and media in France, Spain, and Portugal say "euros" while the government and media in Ireland do not is the height of idiocy. Particularly given the fact that we three-and-a-half million are the only English-speakers in the world who are "supposed" to do it -- come on, how ridiculous do you think we really ought to look?

I have found a number of allies now in my campaign, as I am beginning to get some responses from the people to whom I sent my open letter. I shall be discussing that on the Business/Finance board in the coming weeks, but will continue to discuss the topic on other boards where there is interest.

SheroN

Yoda please tell me you're joking with this crap?

Yoda

Shinji suggested that this fiasco is not shameful and wrong:


No it is bloody not. Nobody is forcing anyone else to use any particular form of the plural, but the Government has decided to use Euro and Cent. This isn't a problem. They can call the currency whatever they want - as can you.

That isn't correct, Shinji. The government thinks that it is doing what the Council of Europe and the European Central Bank want them to do, and therefore they have made this unnatural grammar into policy, and have requested that RTÉ and the other Irish media follow suit. Now the Council of Europe does not have the right to change the plural "cents" to "cent". And the French, Spanish, and Portuguese were smart enough and sensitive enough to their own language to put their foot down and say NO, we are going to say "euros" officially no matter what the Council or the Central Bank say. Now what possible advantage can it be for the population of one small English-speaking island to say "euro and cent" when the rest of the English-speaking world will say "euros and cents"? If the government had done its job and kept to normal English grammar, no one would have even noticed. But in Ireland today there are people who insist on "euro and cent" and people who insist on "euros and cents". And the media which have a great deal of influence on the way people speak are broadcasting the former on the government's orders, and that just isn't right. Because the government screwed up on this one.

Now if you are personally uninterested in matters of a linguistic nature that is up to you. But I am interested in them, and I feel personally that the broadcast of these false plurals into my home each day is an affront to me and to a language I respect. Not everyone feels that way. But I can report that a great many people whom I have told this story have looked at me with a sense of relief that they don't "have to" perpetuate this silliness.

My campaign is aimed at the media, for they have no business messing with our language this way. I gather they don't much like it, but are doing what the government wants. And the government got it wrong, wrong, wrong.

If you want to dismiss me and this, just ignore it. I'm doing some good for our country, actually -- as others have pointed out on some of the other boards. But if you are interested in the facts, read my open letter. And if you don't read it, please don't bother arguing with me, because you won't have the facts.

amp

It is a time of civil war, the evil empire of Europe seek to destroy Ireland by insidiously making them say euro with out the s. Yoda, one man driven by a righteous dream to save Ireland from this socio-linguistic disaster, carries on his crusade.

Selflessly spamming many forums on boards.ie and annoying more people than are annoyed with certain RTE presenters saying euro and cent, he battles on for the euro-kidnapped S. Yea, though he is mocked he will battle on. For if one letter of the alphabet is held hostage by the cronies is Brussels, what next? The letter "T"?

He makes his charts and plans, sends letters to Channel 4's "Countdown" to ask to be the fool that sits in Dictionary Corner, in order to taunt Richard Whitely with anecdotes about words that don't have "s" in them thanks to EU interference.

Can I have an "S" please Carol he says wittily

And when finally, after a life time of crusading, the hooded figure of Death appears and suddenly Yoda realises "OMG I've wasted my entire life!"

10 things that are more important than whatever it is Yoda's on about:

1: Crime.
2: Traffic.
3: The Housing crisis.
4: The Environment.
5: Accountability in the Catholic Church.
6: The fact that our health service is falling apart.
7: Why hasn't Dukem Nukem Forever been released yet?
8: Running out of toilet paper after you've taken a dump.
9: The fact that certain branches of Spar do not stock Pepsi Max.
10: Naval lint.

Yoda

Quite.

I suppose you haven't bothered to read the open letter, or if you have, you haven't understood it. Of course many people may lack linguistic sensitivity, and consider matters like these trivial. The responses which I have had from senators, MEPs, and others so far indicate to me that the totally unnecessary division we have in Ireland between the "euro and cent"ers and the "euros and cents"ers is, in fact, a matter of concern for many, particularly as I have shown that the whole controversy -- and controversy it is, whether you and others recognize it or not -- is based on a failure of the Irish government to act sensibly in this matter, as the governments of Finland, France, Greece, Portugal, and Spain have done. Examples on the boards of support for my effort can be found in Irishguy's and Davros' posts on the Business/Finance forum.

The introduction of the euro in Ireland has been entirely successful but for this matter. It is understandable, considering that English is a world language and therefore the kind of "language planning" found in other countries is not usually considered here. The lack of public education regarding the use of the name of our new currency is one reason we find errors like "it costs one-fifty euro" for €1.50 when no one would ever say "it costs one-fifty dollar" or "one-fifty pound"; one must say "one euro fifty" just as one would say "a dollar fifty" or "one pound fifty". This kind of error is not at all uncommon, and is only compounded by the confusion people have between whether it is proper to say "twelve euros" or "twelve euro". And all of this is totally unnecessary, if the Irish government had thought twice about language use throughout the English-speaking world instead of choosing to kowtow to what they thought was the will of Brussels. When it wasn't, in fact. And even if it were, Brussels has no right to dictate English grammar. If you believe otherwise, I should be surprised indeed.

And Amp, I certainly do not consider that I have wasted my life working for linguistic rights for communities small and large. A look at my web site will show anyone interested that my work, while unusual, actually makes a difference in the world. I don't need your approval; I don't need your scorn either. You'll contribute whichever you wish. But ridiculing me or this issue -- what exactly does that achieve?

Do you say "two euro and fifty cent", regularly and without error? Would you say "two dollars and fifty cent" by accident? RTÉ newsreaders have done. It's intolerable. It's absurd. It's foolish. And it's based on a complete failure on the part of the Irish government to think things through.

And that is something I consider worth trying to change. Are there other things in Irish society which also need addressing? Of course there are. Has the present government failed to deal with crime, traffic, the housing crisis, and recycling? Indeed. And they have also failed with the matter in question.

TwoShedsJackson

Has the present government failed to deal with crime, traffic, the housing crisis, and recycling? Indeed. And they have also failed with the matter in question.

And with that totally ludicrous comparison made, I declare this thread locked!!