Is Ireland more violent than 30 yrs ago?(yes) Why?

Paladin

Talking to my parents, and from obvious statistics, violent crime is much more prevelant today than 30 or more years ago (even 10 years ago!).

Its ridiculous the amount of beatings, fights, stabbings etc. that are going on at present on open city/town streets.

Why is it going on?
I would actually like to hear some ideas on this.

I am actually referring mostly to the danger of random violence in cities\towns like Cork most recently, or Dublin, Limerick, Tralee (jeesus that place is dangerous compared to cork imho )

I have never in my experience seen drugs as the cause of any of these, even though it is a common scapegoat.
Drink is another scapegoat (yes I know, technically falls under "drug").

The thing is, people drank an awful lot in my parents time too. It definately isnt the only factor. Hell its more of a catalyst than a real 'cause' imo. All of the people that are in fights definately are not "nice people" that simply had "a bit too much". They had a bit of as$hole in them to begin with.

Why though, are there more as$holes around then?

TV violence? Social poverty? I dunno. Any takers?

Sand

Stats only so useful as they reveal the *reported* crime. I guess only people whove lived thru the past 30 years, and thus are 35+, can tell you if crime has increased in their opinion (and youre asking for opinion). Of course everything was better in the good old days:)

Assuming crime has risen, the only way to stop it is to grant the guards more powers and support their efforts. Support for that will be lacking most likely because its easy to start shouting "police state!!!" and as I gather before I gave up reading in disgust in a previous thread on this board someone wants to sue the Guards for searching them and daring to bring them to a station. Given that the Guards wont bother searching anyone, wont do any pro active policing for fear of getting sued and wont do their job (whatever the civil rights whingers leave of it).

Keeks

Originally posted by Sand
Stats only so useful as they reveal the *reported* crime.

Have to agree with this. b4 ppl used to beat the crap out of each other and that was the end of it. No police reports or nothing. it used to be about fist and boot, and thats all. No fear of being stabbed (except with a pitch fork).

Nowdays you can't trusy anyone. If they haven't a knife, theres always a bottle!

mike65

Ireland is certainly a more murderous place than 30 years ago when about 20-25 homicides a year was typical its about 50 now.

As for other types of violent crime, I suspect things are no worse than they ever were, people here get tanked up and some will
beat each other and innocent passers by for fun, that was as true back in the good old days as now. Maybe the difference is only in perception due to a more tabloid media. That said the evening papers have always had a predilction for lurid headlines.

Mike.

Biffa Bacon

I don't know if Ireland is more violent today than 30 yrs ago but the reason it is as violent as it is is extremely simple, as is the solution.

The law is not being enforced.

If you break the law, you should be punished. Now the problem is is that there aren't enough prison spaces to put all the knackers in. Which is why I believe that we should bring back slavery as a punishment for petty crime like vandalism, shoplifting, public disturbances etc. Make them clean toilets or clean the canals or something.

mike65

I'm all in favour of public humiliation, Liam Lawlor in a day glow green bib picking up litter in St Stephens green with "Miscreant"
on the back!

Mike.

azezil

Social pressures

People moving around more i.e. in the past people rearly moved far from home, everyone knew everyone, its harder to hurt / steal from someone you know.

Higher cost of living

PHB

TV, it promotes violance as a solution to a problem. Whos doesn't watch TV?

Augmerson

It's a whole host of things, PHB and Azezil got two of em right. I'd say Life has become more stressful...but for who? People who work in offices from 9-6 dont go beating the **** out of other people...they tend to sit in college towers with AWP like rifles.

Well, lack of family values and the fall of Religion. I'd love to see a survey of people who regularly go to church, or who even call themselves Christians/Muslims/Hindus.

azezil

Originally posted by Augmerson
Well, lack of family values and the fall of Religion. I'd love to see a survey of people who regularly go to church, or who even call themselves Christians/Muslims/Hindus.

While I agress religion try's to instill good moral values (in general) it is often also the cause of violence and hate.

Meh

Ireland is more violent in some ways (street violence) but less violent in other ways (corporal punishment in schools, physical abuse in homes...).

klong

In Drogheda over St. patricks weekend there were 36 arrests...of which 30 were for violent, street-fighting type behaviour.
According to a taxi driver i know, there was nothing like that 20 years ago.
I'd be inclined to agree with the prevailing view in this thread.

Aspro

Life is more insecure and people's quality of life is deteriorating. People are frustrated - will I get a job when I leave school?, will I keep my job?, will I ever get a house (or even a flat)?, why did my parents split up?, my girlfriend is pregnant.

There's a myriad of reasons why people are feeling more alienated in society and are lashing out at each other. They turn to drink and drugs for escapism. Alcohol enhances tension and results in fights, stabbings and killings.

Are ordinary people afraid of the consequences of their actions? No. Sure if politicians and big businessmen can get away with flaunting the law, why should they?

Put more police on the street, more people in jail, build more jails -is this a solution? No. We'd just become the good ol' USA, without actually dealing with any of the underlying problems.

Deal with the causes, not the effects.

Paladin

What are the causes then, and how do you realistically deal with them?

Biffa Bacon

Deal with the causes, not the effects.

You can't be serious? Are you suggesting people not be punished for their crimes?

Boston

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon

You can't be serious? Are you suggesting people not be punished for their crimes?

are people really being punished, i mean look at how many law breakers never even go to prison or are out in a faction of the time they were orginaly meant to serve.

I had to laugh when the extremely expensive new complex for young offenders was ransacked by the inmates, all 6 or so of them.

the level of criem in irealnd has increased, along with the growing number of urbanised people. the question is has arrest and jail time figures increased in porportion to that. i seriously doubt it.

i was out on a new housing estate in dublin around new years.
it had been invaded by about 30-50 young kids from a near by area, they destroyed the local shops, smashed the atm machine, tired to set fire to some buildings, and after afew hours left, the gardi never same, because(and this is beautiful) the local village police station was never upgraded for this inflow of people, so there were only two gardi, and they werent about to go out to that number of kids.

gurramok

one factor that can be added in is population increase since the 60s.
There are alot more 15-30 year olds now than there was lets say 30 years ago. Back then alot of that age group had to emigrate to get a decent living. Nowadays, with economy in sorta good shape. people are richer and have more money to spend on socialising.
Another factor is also lack of a crackdown...zero tolerance would be nice !:)

Aspro

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
You can't be serious? Are you suggesting people not be punished for their crimes?

Of course I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying prevention is better than cure. Violence is a symptom of a society in decay.

Of course there are neurological and psychological causes for violent behaviour but I'd have to say that a bad quality of life and insecurity about your future is bound to push you over the edge.

If that's an indication of society as a whole then we have to look at the sort of society we're living in.

Biffa Bacon

are people really being punished, i mean look at how many law breakers never even go to prison or are out in a faction of the time they were orginaly meant to serve.

Exactly. The law is not being enforced. And because we cannot just put people in prison, we need to find another form of punishment. In my opinion, it is time to bring back slavery.

Boston

sweat jesus your not serious are you./

bugler

Course he is. Unfortunately that will mean us having to drop out of the EU and so on. Oh well...

Bad parenting and more importantly a lack of personal morality is what causes thuggery. People don't have a firm grasp of personal responsibility. I don't think Ireland is that much more violent recently though. When the punk scene started to develop years back you had gangs of scumbags roaming the streets looking to fight. If you fight (undeservedly) because you saw something nasty on the TV then you're an idiot, and I hope the other guy smacks your teeth in. As the country becomes more urbanised then you get larger groups of people into contact. As the country becomes more prosperous and the standard of living rises then you get more drunk people coming into contact with each other and then the inevitable happens...

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Boston
sweat jesus your not serious are you./

Absolutely. What is wrong with that? We already deny criminals' human rights by locking them up. Why waste millions of pounds a year keeping them in custody when we can put them to good use? The term "slavery" might put people off but I think it is important that it is used as it conveys to criminals their inferior status. As it is, prison sentences are a source of pride for scumbags. This is wrong. Judicial punishment should be a source of shame, and slavery is a means of conveying this.

Boston

Originally posted by bugler
Bad parenting and more importantly a lack of personal morality is what causes thuggery. People don't have a firm grasp of personal responsibility. I don't think Ireland is that much more violent recently though. When the punk scene started to develop years back you had gangs of scumbags roaming the streets looking to fight. If you fight (undeservedly) because you saw something nasty on the TV then you're an idiot, and I hope the other guy smacks your teeth in. As the country becomes more urbanised then you get larger groups of people into contact. As the country becomes more prosperous and the standard of living rises then you get more drunk people coming into contact with each other and then the inevitable happens...

yea the mods and the rockers, i remember,

violent crime may be up but organized violent crime is way down.

Absolutely. What is wrong with that? We already deny criminals' human rights by locking them up. Why waste millions of pounds a year keeping them in custody when we can put them to good use? The term "slavery" might put people off but I think it is important that it is used as it conveys to criminals their inferior status. As it is, prison sentences are a source of pride for scumbags. This is wrong. Judicial punishment should be a source of shame, and slavery is a means of conveying this.

Hmm, ****ing up and going to jail is nothing to brag about.

Sand

Biffas right in that criminals should be made to work to go some way to compensating the state for the cost of their incarceration.

Dunno if Id use the term slavery myself, that would imply you drove into Darndale or some such, rounded up some guys and sold them off to cotton plantations in the deep south. Granted, I wouldnt really miss the scumbags but.....
Also slavery implies ownership and forced labour for economic advantage. Prisoners forced labour would not imply ownership (not anymore than the state restricting their rights in the first place).

seamus

I would agree with making prisoners work for pittance. We'd get way more things done, like building roads, railways, luas lines, etc. How do you think America has such a good infrastructure?

I would think there's plenty of factors. As Azezil said, back in the old days, most parts of Dublin were like country towns, where everybody knew everybody, so you couldn't get away with much. Now, we are becoming far more spread out, ie, families move into different areas than their siblings/parents, and so troublemakers can get away with a lot more.
Discipline has a lot to do with it aswell. Some people are just unable to take control of their kids. I think it's another thing where there should be an LC module on it. Maybe a compulsory subject called 'Life skills' aka 'How not to be a total tosser for the rest of your life', which covers things like driving, sex ed, parenting, cooking, insurance, etc etc etc.

Drink has nothing to do with people being angry and violent. People are already angry and violent, drink just uninhibits them. Deal with the social unhappiness and you will solve the drink problems, not the other way round.