United Ireland Poll Agreed

Fianna Eireann

The demand of the Unionist leader for a vote on whether
Northern Ireland should join a united Ireland must be met
on an All Ireland basis, a leading member of Republican
Sinn Fein said today. (Sunday 10th March 2002)

RSF Munster Executive spokesman Joe Lynch from Limerick
said that such a vote cannot be confined to the Six Counties
and organised under British influence.

"The fact that David Trimble says unionists have nothing to
fear from such a proposal shows the sectarianism of the
partition of our country. We in Republican Sinn Fein say
that such a vote should be open to all the Irish people and
the Irish people acting as a unit could determine their own
future, without British interference.

"We agree with the Unionist leader on the poll but say
that as it potentially concerns a united Ireland then all the
people of Ireland should have a vote. It is as simple as that -
so let Mr. Trimble agree to the All Ireland plebiscite.

"We want to see a British withdrawal from Ireland - we do not
agree with the partition of our country - and the root cause of
conflict is the continued British presence in Ireland.

"The Provisionals have accepted the Unionist veto and the
right of the British to rule the Six Counties - in fact the Provos
are now in the pay of the British - but we shall never accept
the British presence in Ireland."

Irish Republican Bulletin Board

Sand

I dont find the views of Republican SF to be of much interest. Neither does the vast majority of the electorate thank christ. Now if only they felt the same way about SF itself.

Boston

i find all this republicanism unsettling. persoaly id rather never see a united irealnd. not under teh marxist provo flag anyway

Biffa Bacon

Republican Sinn Féin are traitors. I'd love to see them all interned.

Boston

internment is a terrible thing,

gandalf

OK I deleted a couple of posts, one that was personalising the arguement and another reaction to that post.

Back on topic. Biffa internment would backfire just like it did in the 70's. It would be more of a help to these people than a hindrence. What needs to be done is people need to ask these republicans difficult questions and start to pin them down on their ideas.

Gandalf.

Biffa Bacon

Back on topic. Biffa internment would backfire just like it did in the 70's.

I don't believe it would. First of all, intelligence gathering is better today than it was back in the 70's so that you would be much more likely to get the right people. Second, one of the reasons internment failed in the 70's was because it was imposed by a Unionist government on a republican population and was thus seen as unfair. An Irish government imposing internment on its "own" people would not face this same kind of difficulty. And finally, if the government engaged in an effective counter-propaganda campaign they could prevent any sympathy in the general population towards the internees and their political beliefs.

What needs to be done is people need to ask these republicans difficult questions and start to pin them down on their ideas.

Gandalf, you seem to be under the illusion that these people think rationally and can thus be swayed by rational argument. They can't. They're idiots.

amp

Hey Fianna, as everybody knows I'm a big CS fan and I'm just wondering what the best semi-automatic hand gun to use is when planting 3 tonnes of fertilzer and icing sugar?


heheheehe soz mate just kidding, please don't kneecap me!

meglome

I'll try not get my post deleted this time...

No, but you got it edited this time....jc

Internment was one of the single biggest reasons people in the 70's joined the IRA. No right minded person would ever think going back to this, we have come so far, so going back to the bad old times isn't going to make it better. I do not support the provisional movement in the north in any way; to me there is little difference between the loyalist scum and the republican scum.

I personally would hate to see a united Ireland, all the aforementioned scum suddenly landed on us... no thank you.

Elmo

Just to get back to a United Ireland

I would be for it

Except without the brits and the famine

You should always be interest in what people from all aspects of politics have to say other wise your just another fine-geal-middle-class-unionist-holyer-then-art-thou-f u c k h e a d.

Sand

Or maybe youre not interested in the views of those who debate when they can, and when they fail to persuade you shove a gun in your face. BTW Elmo youre a great advertisement for your cause, how old are you? 12?

Elmo

Did the Unionist and the british government not shove guns into the faces of their own people and we are now around a table talking to them.

Also If we had got Home Rule when Isacc Butt (1890) asked for it we would still be part of the United Kingdom with the moderate nationalist (i.e. the now Fine Geal Party) and the Unionist as Leaders of our combined government.

But then what the f u c k do i know i am only 12.

bonkey

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
Republican Sinn Féin are traitors. I'd love to see them all interned.

Could you supply any credible reason why they *should* be interned, or are you simply continuing the cycle of intolerance which is rampant in this country?

jc

gandalf

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon

I don't believe it would. First of all, intelligence gathering is better today than it was back in the 70's so that you would be much more likely to get the right people. Second, one of the reasons internment failed in the 70's was because it was imposed by a Unionist government on a republican population and was thus seen as unfair. An Irish government imposing internment on its "own" people would not face this same kind of difficulty. And finally, if the government engaged in an effective counter-propaganda campaign they could prevent any sympathy in the general population towards the internees and their political beliefs.

Nope sorry Biffa I don't agree. We either play by the rules and have EVIDENCE to allow us to prosecute these people or we might as well set up a dictatorship in this country.

Gandalf, you seem to be under the illusion that these people think rationally and can thus be swayed by rational argument. They can't. They're idiots.

Maybe they are but my point is that anyone that might be thinking of supporting them might have their minds changed if RSF/SF can be put in a corner and made to make their policies public.

Gandalf.

TwoShedsJackson

Originally posted by bonkey


Could you supply any credible reason why they *should* be interned, or are you simply continuing the cycle of intolerance which is rampant in this country?

jc

Of course he can't. Biffa likes to post 'controversial' one sentence posts in threads without any attempt at either explaining himself of backing anything up.

Hobbes

I think internment would work, after all we would be picking up the bad guys and not innocent people, the bad guys don't deserve rights because they are the bad guys. :rolleyes:

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by bonkey


Could you supply any credible reason why they *should* be interned, or are you simply continuing the cycle of intolerance which is rampant in this country?

jc

RSF pose a very real threat to life and to the security of the state. If this threat is considered serious enough then the conventional judicial process should be discarded if it cannot guarantee that these people will be put away.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Castor Troy


Of course he can't. Biffa likes to post 'controversial' one sentence posts in threads without any attempt at either explaining himself of backing anything up.

Are you thinking of the censorship thread? I fully backed up my arguments on that one and no one challenged the points I was making.

Biffa Bacon

Nope sorry Biffa I don't agree. We either play by the rules and have EVIDENCE to allow us to prosecute these people or we might as well set up a dictatorship in this country.

No matter what the threat to life or state security?

gandalf

Well Biffa imho Youth Defense pose a very real and crediable threat to the state, can I therefore rip up our laws and have them locked up too ?

Are you saying that people with Republican views should be persecuted ?

What next any person with anti-Nice sentiments be made disappear ?

You are moving onto a very slippery slope if you start saying that some laws can be invalidated to "protect the state".

Gandalf.

Goosey

United Ireland; Internment.........

I'm sorry but I am an Irish man and a patriot, served in the Defence Forces for Ireland.

I only see bigots on both sides of the border and so called Freedom fighters/Terrorists on both sides of the divide.

Using a now nolonger valid reason to take up arms.

There is the Bigots in politics tryign to keep their power.
There is the terrorist claiming that they are fighting for a cause when we all know that the cause is now to line their own pockets through whatever scam at the end of a gun if need be. It's now just organised crime.

The odd bombing or shooting to try pull the wool over foolish eyes to say it's for a cause!

Last time I was in Newry or London I don't recall getting stopped and asked for a passport or ID.

We can't go back and change the past; all 800 bloody years of it but we can change the future.

Welcome to the United States of Europe!

Goosey

Biffa Bacon

Well Biffa imho Youth Defense pose a very real and crediable threat to the state, can I therefore rip up our laws and have them locked up too ?

No but you could introduce a law to have them locked up. As I understand it if a State of Emergency is declared then the state does have the right to introduce internment? I'm not proposing doing anything illegal, just suspending the conventional judicial process in certain instances.

Are you saying that people with Republican views should be persecuted ?

What next any person with anti-Nice sentiments be made disappear ?

I think I might not have made myself clear in my original comments. I'm not proposing locking up people for their political beliefs. I'm proposing locking up people who are known to be engaged in subversion.

bonkey

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon

I'm not proposing locking up people for their political beliefs. I'm proposing locking up people who are known to be engaged in subversion.

If they are known to be involved in subversion, then they can be proven to be involved in sibversion, in which case, internment is not needed, just our every day normal legal system.

Unless by known you mean suspected.

Originally posted by Hobbes

I think internment would work, after all we would be picking up the bad guys and not innocent people, the bad guys don't deserve rights because they are the bad guys.

LOL. Of course! How obvious! Why didnt I see that immediately Genius.

Meh

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
I think I might not have made myself clear in my original comments. I'm not proposing locking up people for their political beliefs. I'm proposing locking up people who are known to be engaged in subversion.

That doesn't require internment. Under existing legislation, the Minister for Justice can proscribe certain organizations. People can then be jailed for membership of those organizations on the unsupported word of a Garda superintendent.

Boston

subversion is a ncie word, ive heard it used for and against many things

the fact is we dont live in a dictatorship people have the right to subvert the goverment if they can legaly.

the fact is jsut becasue something is law doesnt make it allright and dandy. i take it you dont subscribe to the un mandate about human rights?

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by bonkey


If they are known to be involved in subversion, then they can be proven to be involved in sibversion, in which case, internment is not needed, just our every day normal legal system.

Unless by known you mean suspected.

No, in such cases the normal legal system does not necessarily guarantee that if you are known to be involved in terrorism then you can be proven to be involved. Intimidation of witnesses is a big problem as is the need for the accuser to be made known to the defendent.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Meh

That doesn't require internment. Under existing legislation, the Minister for Justice can proscribe certain organizations. People can then be jailed for membership of those organizations on the unsupported word of a Garda superintendent.

Really? Cool!
So why isn't it used more often? I read in the paper that the Gardaí know exactly who planned, built and carried out the Omagh bomb but they don't have enough evidence to convict. Why aren't they be put away on the word of a Garda superintendent then?

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Boston

the fact is we dont live in a dictatorship people have the right to subvert the goverment if they can legaly.

If it's legal I wouldn't consider it to be subversion.

the fact is jsut becasue something is law doesnt make it allright and dandy. i take it you dont subscribe to the un mandate about human rights?

The UN Declaration of Human Rights guarantees a right to a fair trial (I think). I see internment as a preventitive measure rather than a judicial process. For example, the Omagh bombers should be interned not because they carried out the bombing but because they will probably do it again. In this instance, no trial is involved and thus there is no conflict with the UN declaration.

Meh

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon

Really? Cool!
So why isn't it used more often?

Because the Special Criminal Court, to their credit, have been wary of convicting based on a Garda's word alone.

I read in the paper that the Gardaí know exactly who planned, built and carried out the Omagh bomb but they don't have enough evidence to convict.

That's a great idea! Let's dispense with our expensive and outdated criminal justice system altogether and just jail people based on who the Evening Herald think is guilty!

Goosey

Originally posted by Meh

That's a great idea! Let's dispense with our expensive and outdated criminal justice system altogether and just jail people based on who the Evening Herald think is guilty!

ROFL

Pure genius!

ROFL:p

Goosey

Typedef

Interjection.

Repartition is the only feasible outcome. Yes you may and have pursuaded the Republicans accept (for the moment) British Rule in the North, however if ever the Republic where according to eminent politicians like Ian Paisley 'Home Rule is Home Rule' were to become part of a similar arrangement except where the buck stopped with Dublin, the loyalists would feel disenfranchised and would wage war on the South.
This is an unacceptable outcome lest this island degenerate into a spree of ethnic cleansing, where the Darwinian winner takes all. No, the only alternative to the current setup is total and complete seperation of the two communities with the pertinant governance provided in each case of socio-politcal instance.

I'm not saying it will ever come to pass, but who seriously believes that it would be possible (or right) to attempt to coral North East Ulster into a 'Papist State'?

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Meh
Because the Special Criminal Court, to their credit, have been wary of convicting based on a Garda's word alone.

Right so you do need internment then.

That's a great idea! Let's dispense with our expensive and outdated criminal justice system altogether and just jail people based on who the Evening Herald think is guilty!

You're not listening to me. I'm saying that if the threat from these people is perceived to be great enough, then you should intern them.

And it was Jim Cusack in the Irish Times btw.

mike65

If there is to be a poll will there be just one in the North or can we vote? Also would it be a simple 50% + 1 vote or would the result need say a two-thirds yes to be passed. I for one could'nt see how a 50+1 poll result could be considered safe myself, if nearly all Unionists voted No and that was'nt reflected in the result there would be hell to pay.

Also of course many in the Republic dont want a United Ireland on the grounds it would be no such thing and would cost lots, imagine all those Prods in safe Public Sector jobs that would have to be sacked (about 45% of all employment in NI is by the State.).

Then there's the civil war that might follow such a poll.

Best forget it methinks.

Mike.

Boston

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon

If it's legal I wouldn't consider it to be subversion.

The UN Declaration of Human Rights guarantees a right to a fair trial (I think). I see internment as a preventitive measure rather than a judicial process. For example, the Omagh bombers should be interned not because they carried out the bombing but because they will probably do it again. In this instance, no trial is involved and thus there is no conflict with the UN declaration.

so the word prejustic is alien to you.
as some stage you make harm we there fore ive the right to kill you?

at some stage they will be able to establise gens that cause violent behavour in people, so am i to persume that somebody with excess amounts of these gens is likely to commite a crime therefore should be jailed at birth?

Sand

Hmm Internment can work- De Valera to his credit used it to break the power of the IRA in the south during "The Emergency". It can go badly as well as the British found out. I suppose it depends on whether you think the risk of it blowing up in your face (literally with the IRA scum involved) is worth it.

As for the problems raised by unionist/loyalist alienation in a united ireland there is the possibility of actually devolving a lot of the domestic powers to regional governments. This would allow the unionists to retain a large degree of control over their domestic politics at the very least (Given the consent principle they would still be a minority but a significant one). Given that the EU is attempting to take control of foreign policy and economic matters (Good luck to them- Im for a federal europe, not for that mess they have in Brussels) they would probably find little difference in foreign policy compared to the UK.

mike65

I'm a semi-federlist in that I have no problem with the concept only those who propose it! I really don't think Unionists would be
swayed by the devolution within a 32 county Ireland arguement.

We can't devolve local or national government properly as things stand now, so I would hold out much hope for a new all-Ireland government being able to make a decent fist of it.

Mike.

Biffa Bacon

so the word prejustic is alien to you.

er...yes. What does it mean?

as some stage you make harm we there fore ive the right to kill you?

I'm not talking about killing anyone.

at some stage they will be able to establise gens that cause violent behavour in people, so am i to persume that somebody with excess amounts of these gens is likely to commite a crime therefore should be jailed at birth?

Depends on how likely it made them to commit crimes, the severity of the crimes and if this violent behaviour could be controlled.