Seriously: Is this some kind of joke?

aus_boy

"The proposal is intended to remove the threat of suicide as a ground for abortion; define abortion as the intentional destruction of human life after implantation in the womb; allow for medical procedures which involve ending a pregnancy to save a woman's life; and introduce a sentence of up to 12 years for procuring or aiding in an abortion."


let's see here, what about the refendum in 1992? Why try and reverse one of the proposals for that refendum? Is this not defined as a violation of human rights if this goes through? Now I can see those fu*king christians(catholics) in Ireland trying to revert the immiment onslaught of liberalisation. I'm shocked and horrirified to see this going on in a European country in 2002.

-PRO CHOICE

Hobbes

read the full bill.

the 12 years only applies to abortions carried out in the State, not to anyone travelling.

aus_boy

Originally posted by Hobbes
read the full bill.

the 12 years only applies to abortions carried out in the State, not to anyone travelling.

what about suicide as a reason for abortion?

Hobbes

It only removes that.

It however allows women to travel even if it is known that the woman will do so for an abortion. I believe the X-Case the girl was stopped from travelling because they had admitted they were going to travel to the UK for an abortion.

Also it seems voting yes allows abortion if the doctor feels the baby is endangering the womans life, before in pregancies the child was always given the right to live over the mother.

Go wander over to the politics board. I posted a link to the full bill.

aus_boy

Originally posted by Hobbes
It only removes that.

It however allows women to travel even if it is known that the woman will do so for an abortion. I believe the X-Case the girl was stopped from travelling because they had admitted they were going to travel to the UK for an abortion.

Also it seems voting yes allows abortion if the doctor feels the baby is endangering the womans life, before in pregancies the child was always given the right to live over the mother.

Go wander over to the politics board. I posted a link to the full bill.

In 1992 the woman was given the right to information and travel. can't remember if the suicide thing was already in the constition or implemented in 1992. What if the woman can't afford to travel and is suicidal? This refendum if it goes through has just signed her death warrant. A lot of women suffer from prenatal depression and are suicidal.

Hobbes

A lot of women suffer from prenatal depression and are suicidal.

Which isn't a valid reason for an abortion. the suicidal excuse was used to get around a law.

strat

this is why i dont read the humanities board :rolleyes:
whens this getting moved then monty

po0k

If I had a vote (will be 18 in 9 days, not time enough) I'd vote no.
It's only a coincidence that Pro Life are camp[aigning for No votes too.
I'm of the opposite view to the Yes people.
I'll will attampt to explain why, and give what I would feel are reasonable proposals to put forward.
I am of the opinion that a 'life' is 'valid' (excuse the clincal terms here) after 4-5 weeks, by which time the zygote has formed a brain, spine, heart and the 'buds' for limbs. at that stage I consider an abortion to be morally wrong if the mother's life is not threatened, either directly by pregnency (say a very young girl or rape victim) or by suicide.
Women should not have to leave the country to have this procedure done for several reasons:
1)It costs quite a bit of money to do it, which for less well-off women, means they must wait to amass the neccessary funds by which time the foetus is considered a human life (imho) and also increases the risk.
2)The 'clinics' in other countries are often of poor health regulation standards and this increases the risk of infection, complications and problems later on in life, or even death on the table.
3)If it were leagalised in Ireland it could be regulated more easily, and with a special court could go through each case individually and have each woman psycologiacally assessed for 'threat of suicide'.
4)This court would cost the taxpayers money, and would need to be well funded if it is to be effective (ie: a woman doesn't have to fill out a dozen forms and then join a waiting list for what could be a life-saving operation. Notice the use of life in the singular. If a mother truely was in a suicidal state it is the lesser of two evils for her to have an abortion and at least the woman's life will be saved, if not the unborn foetus.
5)At this moment in time I am of the opinion (uninformed i might add) that a properly and safely carried out abortion carries as much risk as a caesarian section for the average women, assuming no serious problems/complications arise during the operation. I am open to enlghtenment on this.

I certainly do not like being badgered by either the church or militant 'Pro-Lifers' with regards abortion, and I won't take any flaming or insults in relation to this post.
'Active-campaigning' they call it. 'Mental (and sometimes physical) harrassment' more like.

Baz_

why do you care anyway aus_boy, or is this gonna get added to your list of reasons for leaving ireland??

aus_boy

Originally posted by Baz_
why do you care anyway aus_boy, or is this gonna get added to your list of reasons for leaving ireland??

I care about this topic and therefore posted it. If no-one cared about anything, this board wouldn't exist. Yes it is another reason to add to the list.

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by aus_boy


I care about this topic and therefore posted it. If no-one cared about anything, this board wouldn't exist. Yes it is another reason to add to the list.

id agree with you. its pathetic.

also charging people a tax for plastic bags. rediculous.....

Dr. Loon

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan




also charging people a tax for plastic bags. rediculous.....

How else do we cut down on plastic bag consumption??

Hobbes

Originally posted by SyxPak
2)The 'clinics' in other countries are often of poor health regulation standards and this increases the risk of infection,

Which countries? It would only be one and that's England.

3)If it were leagalised in Ireland it could be regulated more easily,

Voting yes or no does not legalise abortion. As for it being more money, if it was legalised you would be looking at the same amount of money being charged. The trip over on the boat would be cheaper then the operation.

Not entirely sure what you mean by waiting list and endless forms? I don't recall anything of that mentioned in the bill.

Bard

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan

also charging people a tax for plastic bags. rediculous.....

Why is this ridiculous?

it hardly breaks the bank at only 15c per bag, - it's a proper incentive for people to use less non bio-degradable plastic bags and to use more re-usable "bag for life"-type carrier bags, - it'll be better for the environment as it reduces pollution, and the money gathered will be going into environmentally benificial projects.

So I ask again,... why is it ridiculous?

aus_boy

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan


also charging people a tax for plastic bags. rediculous.....

you will see when it happens, it makes people bring their old bags back to the shopping mall, and it helps the environment. It's been happening in mainland Europe for years, and works a treat!
why did this subject change from abortion to plastic bags?:D

po0k

Originally posted by Hobbes


Voting yes or no does not legalise abortion. As for it being more money, if it was legalised you would be looking at the same amount of money being charged. The trip over on the boat would be cheaper then the operation.

You'd still have to pay for the abortion in England.

Not entirely sure what you mean by waiting list and endless forms? I don't recall anything of that mentioned in the bill.

I mean hangups in court.
A special 'court'/comittee/whatever could be set up to deal with each case.

Sorry for not making it clearer in the post, but I know they're not in the bill.
These are measures I would like to see enacted.
I would vote no only as a means to an end.

The referendum is only a gesture to the catholic militia (;)) from Bertie cos he promised them a referendum to get votes for the last election. And now he's made a 'heart-felt plea' for a yes vote.
Appeasement gets you no-where Bertie. "Bleedin Muppeh"
Who put forward these proposals, and who passed them to be voted on in this farcical referendum?
Imho, a yes vote would be regression.

Stephen

I'll just wander a bit off topic for a moment... I'm eligble and registered to vote ... but i fking CANNOT because I'm here in college and can only vote back home in Kilkenny. This is a bloody ball of sh1te if you ask me. I think students and others who spend extended periods away from home should be given a postal vote or some other method of voting.

for what its worth, i would be voting no.

Hobbes

Originally posted by SyxPak

You'd still have to pay for the abortion in England.

True, but then so you would in Ireland and if you can't afford the boat trip there is no way in hell you can afford the clinic.

And I draw the line at State funding abortions.

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Bard



So I ask again,... why is it ridiculous?

its abag tax.
i understand the where whys and whats, but a tax is still a tax.
youre paye tax goes on numerous things, but you moan and complain about it, so i figure its fair game for em to moan about a tax on plastic bags.
its just another tax in a country full of little sur-charges.
in a relationships its not the big things that break you up, its the little things.
its the constant little things in ireland that bugger me off so much.
like bag taxes.....

Stephen

The recent 1% increase in VAT was not much fun either. Most of the public seemed to be totally unaware of it until it actually happened. (I work in a shop...you should have seen the puzzled faces on saturday when punters came in to buy a packet of 20 fags and the price had risen by 16 cents)

po0k

Originally posted by Hobbes


True, but then so you would in Ireland and if you can't afford the boat trip there is no way in hell you can afford the clinic.

Are you saying it's cheaper to go to England (even with Ryanair) and ay for a dodgey 'clinic' then to be able to go to your local hospital and prehaps have it covered by medical insurance (provided there was a legitimate reason for the procedure - see previous posts)?
I honestly don't think it would be.

And I draw the line at State funding abortions.

I never said the state would pay for the abortions, unless you were pre-empting a reply or something.
I too wouldn't like to see that happening.
The state would provided the funds for psyciatric analysis of the woman in each case, and create the legal process neccessary to ensure it was carried through in accordance to the law, such as it does with tax-evasion, drug trafficing, divorce, and other such issues.
Also, I feel it would apply more in the cases of women who have been the victims of rape/sexual abuse, are suicidal, or there is a strong possibility that the woman will die if the pregnancy is carried through.

Stephen, I agree totally with you there.
They b!tch and moan about low voter turn outs yet they make no effort to enable such people to vote.
It's not bloody likely that a student is going to waste money (and drinking time - it being alot of colleges RAG week now) travelling home to cast their vote on an issue which has clearly and blatently rushed through to appease "Our Leader's" voters for the upcoming General Election.
With a SSH connection it could be done safely and securely over the internet (in the context of students) as most have web access in their colleges, or the voting could take place in the colleges themselves. Certainly every college would have facilities to accomodate such activities.

I'm starting to get too serious on this.
I propose a move to the humanities board.

Makaveli

Originally posted by Stephen
The recent 1% increase in VAT was not much fun either. Most of the public seemed to be totally unaware of it until it actually happened. (I work in a shop...you should have seen the puzzled faces on saturday when punters came in to buy a packet of 20 fags and the price had risen by 16 cents)

actually people started giving out to me because of this and saying that we had put up the prices in the shop ourselves, bloody muppets.
As for the bag tax, I now know that people are scabbly lil bastards, they come in and buy loads of stuff, lets say 2 bags worth, and then you ask them if they want a bag and they say no, and then struggle to carry the stuff out of the shop dropping half of it along the way. They only cost 15c hardly gonna break the bank and the point is to buy one and then use it again.

As for the referendum yesterday, I didnt vote coz I was in college til 4 and then work from 5-11, so I couldnt. Not that it really made a difference I wasnt even sure what the whole thing was about so I would have probably just spoiled my vote.

strat

Originally posted by Stephen
I'll just wander a bit off topic for a moment... I'm eligble and registered to vote ... but i fking CANNOT because I'm here in college and can only vote back home in Kilkenny. This is a bloody ball of sh1te if you ask me. I think students and others who spend extended periods away from home should be given a postal vote or some other method of voting.

for what its worth, i would be voting no.

some form of youth assembly lobbys for that a while back and now general elections are held on firdays

Stephen

Yet referendums (referenda? whatever) are held whenever they feel like it? Great.

Bard

Originally posted by SyxPak

Are you saying it's cheaper to go to England (even with Ryanair) and ay for a dodgey 'clinic' then to be able to go to your local hospital and prehaps have it covered by medical insurance (provided there was a legitimate reason for the procedure - see previous posts)?
I honestly don't think it would be.
#

DOesn't seem to me like Hobbes is quite saying -that-, SyxPak... seems like he's simply saying that if you can't afford to pay your boat/plane fare, then how are you going to afford to pay for the operation?

It's not the same thing. Having it done here doesn't even come into the equation.

Bard

According to Ireland.com, it's looking like the NO's are going to take it anyway...

Lucutus

Originally posted by Bard
it's looking like the NO's are going to take it anyway...

Good to hear.

logic1

Originally posted by Lucutus


Good to hear.

Damn right. Next we should have a vote to shoot all the morons that voted Yes.

.logic.

sceptre

Originally posted by Stephen
I'll just wander a bit off topic for a moment... I'm eligble and registered to vote ... but i fking CANNOT because I'm here in college and can only vote back home in Kilkenny. This is a bloody ball of sh1te if you ask me. I think students and others who spend extended periods away from home should be given a postal vote or some other method of voting.

Simple solution Stephen

Register to vote at your college address. Don't put down an old address. This will give you one vote at home and one at college. When the time comes to vote, just use the vote wherever you are at the time.

There are other ways, like organising a postal vote for yourself (and it can be done) but it's just too much hassle.

And before someone gets on the "can't do that, it's illegal" bandwagon, no it bloody isn't, as long as you only use one vote at a time. We even had a Supreme court judgement confirming this in 1994. Now, the judgement was only restricted to students who are away from home but I'm sure that if it came up for a sheer convenience reason (working away from home, living elsewhere for a significant period of time) the ruling would be the same.

I'm registered in both Mallow and Limerick. Yesterday I was in Mallow for my driving test (passed it incidentally) so I voted in Mallow. For the Nice referendum I was in Limerick as usual so voted there. Divorce referendum, voted in Mallow, last general election, voted in Limerick. Nice and simple. (sceptre won't be disenfranchised, ho hum)