The Supervision Withdrawels

Asok

as one of the lunatics who went protesting last year i was just wondering what this years opinion on the asti`s upcoming action??

seamus

Poll fixed. Atari Jaguar removed because it's gotten old now. I voted no. They want way too much as it is

Asok

Thanks Seamus

Anyways back on topic is it true that they are going to be working to rule next week and whether the good old minister has gotten his super duper contingency plan in place personally i cant see a bunch of 1st years paying a bit of heed of anyone that cant really punish them oh well maybe they will give the repeats riot gear and lock the doors

Mills

I'm a prefect in my school and we had to supervise classes for 2 hours there last friday while the teachers had a meeting, it's a lot harder than you'd think whenever they know there's absolutely nothing you can do. I had to supervise a class of 2nd years in the woodwork room on my own, the little ****ers started fighting and chasing each other round, I ended up having to pull them off each other. Luckily there was one who was responsible for most of the trouble and it quietened down when I took him up to the front and kept him there beside me.

They're going to have to give these people who come in to supervise some sort of authority to give out some kind of punishment, because I can see them being walked all over.

Nietzschean

In my opinion of all me years at second leval and now my final year in a private college (bruce in limerick) i think they ASTI can go shove the ammount of money n pensionable stuff they are looking for. For starters they are paid while not working during summer...that should count for any supervision time easily..

In bruce teachers don't do supervision they have paid supervisiors....tis alot more quieter than the average class in a normal school...you say to words and its off to the principle for possible suspension or expulsion....no one does anything and people do alot more work the teachers teach and the supervisors supervise...for the ammount of offer to the ASTI its insane they just don't accept it...like its only sitting on your ass for a few hours a day...you can always send em to the principle no bother...let em be suspended or have there parents in right there and then..............

Asuka

Serialkiller, you are horrible misinformed. I dont want the teachers to work to rule at this stage in my course, but I think they have to do something.

However, im not going to get into an argument over what teachers do or dont deserve... again. If you want my opinion, drag up the thread in the after hours board last year.

A

Boston

Originally posted by Mills
I'm a prefect in my school and we had to supervise classes for 2 hours there last friday while the teachers had a meeting, it's a lot harder than you'd think whenever they know there's absolutely nothing you can do. I had to supervise a class of 2nd years in the woodwork room on my own, the little ****ers started fighting and chasing each other round, I ended up having to pull them off each other. Luckily there was one who was responsible for most of the trouble and it quietened down when I took him up to the front and kept him there beside me.

They're going to have to give these people who come in to supervise some sort of authority to give out some kind of punishment, because I can see them being walked all over.

since the deparment cant give authority then it down to the school ruling body how much if any they recieve, and since its unlike to go down with most teachers well i doubt they will get much help

Mills

The headmaster told us this morning in assembly that these supervisors would have authority to give out detentions or whatever, the same as the teachers have, but he'd say that anyway. Should be interesting to see how things work out on monday.

I'm not in the least bit annoyed with the ASTI, all they're doing is withdrawing a voluntary and unpaid service, they aren't even striking.

Nietzschean

1.Well for a start have u experenced both private n public school teaching? probally not so therefore u cannot comment on my point of view. :rolleyes:

2.Secondly i read your previous post's on the after hours boards and u seem to have it all backwards. The government has been extreemly nice to the ASTI benchmarking what the government wanted in is what needs to be in place, the ASTI's objection from my years of public schools seem to stem from the simple fact that only about 10% of the ASTI's members can teach half decently! Like benchmarking would mean decent teachers would get paid more like any normal job where the better employee can get paid more....their is no drive in a public school to be better than anyone else after u have yer 'lifetime' contract off the school i've had teachers who saught fit to go clean up out side rather than do irish class for months at a time. I've had teachers sit in front of me with a new paper basically beacuse they couldn't be arsed teaching. Benchmarking would mean that those teachers get ****ty salaries and should get fired.Currently in my estimate from what would be considered to be a very high results school Ardscoil Ris in limerick 90% of the teachers couldn't care less and are brutal...mostly out of lazyness.

I moved to bruce where camera's in the classroom's and a principle who had power and cared that we get our courses (granted we pay enuf for that attention) means every teacher is willing to bend over backwards....no bad teacher survives longer than a year with student survey's of teachers proformance n spot check's by the principle whereas the 'inspector' who i've seen in public schools seems to do sweet **** all.

Now unless you wanna inform yourself fully n stop taking a biast view keep to yerself there's a good lad :cool:

Typedef

Here's a fact.

Teachers can't be fired except by the Minister for Education and oh no the teachers don't like being evaluated on the work that they do, why is that, it happens to the rest of us in the real world day in day out like it or no. What kind of hours do teachers actually put in? Less than your average worker, but supposedly with (perparitory work) appended. What a joke, you have a person who can't get fired from their job, except by the Minister for Eudcation, a person who works less hours and gets paid a whole lot more in your typical teacher.

Now excuse me, but if the ASTI really thinks it can go around breaking agreements with the government by holding leaving cert students to ransom, they have another thing coming. The fact is that if the government capitulate to the demands of the ASTI, then a whole swathe of groups will start trying to modify the terms of the agreements with the government that they undertook, but these agreements people are what keeps public spending under control and is one of the major reasons we managed to 'grow' the Irish economy essentially for the first time since the 1960s, who are the teachers to form a bloc with their artifically secure state jobs and hold the students of this country and the nation to ransom?

Why in the hell shouldn't teachers be evaluated the same way other workers get evaluated, teaching is practically a job for life but like I have said in the real world, where people don't have the luxury of being protected from on high by the Minister for education, 'we' collectively have to produce things and have to live with the fact 'strange as it may seem to some state empolyees' that 'we' have to work sometimes damn hard and do long hours for poxy money and that is life. Now sorry, you don't want benchmarking, give me a break, grow up and join the rest of us in, you know, the land of reality.

I have absolutely no sympathy for the teachers, I used to work for Gateway and lots of people not just in Gateway, but in a swathe of companies and industries around the country have lost out due to the downturn, now, at which point in time did these people who get paid comparitevly well, who have 'state guaranteed jobs', work less hours than most and 'don't even get marked on their performance vis-a-vis pay' get the idea that they could break the commitments that everyone else in this economy not only has to live with but, depends on too?

/Apologies for the rant!

Asuka

<Sigh> I said i wasnt going to go into this, but since youve provoked me directly, what can i do?

Originally posted by Serialkiller
1.Well for a start have u experenced both private n public school teaching? probally not so therefore u cannot comment on my point of view. :rolleyes:

Please, allow me to call you an idiot. The difference between public and private schools is almost purely aesthetic at this point. Private school administrations have a little more freedom to do what they want, but the point at issue here (ie the teaching) is no different. When a teacher applies for a job, they are not going to worry about whether a school is public or private - the conditions are the same and the pay is the same no matter what school they teach in.

What youre talking about is not a private/public school difference, but one of a very small number of schools in ireland which specialise in exam courses. Like you said yourself, youre only doing your final year there, as do most people, and youre paying a fortune to do it...

I have attended a private school for six years, and it appears to be you who have got your fact wrong...

2.Secondly i read your previous post's on the after hours boards and u seem to have it all backwards. The government has been extreemly nice to the ASTI benchmarking what the government wanted in is what needs to be in place, the ASTI's objection from my years of public schools seem to stem from the simple fact that only about 10% of the ASTI's members can teach half decently!

Ok, here you appear to be trying to win this argument by confusing me... Can anyone else make sense of what this guy is trying to say? Your precious Bruce college has yet to teach you to speak coherently...

Like benchmarking would mean decent teachers would get paid more like any normal job where the better employee can get paid more...

Bullsh!t. Your knowledge of the benchmarking system is closely approximate with your skill of sexual origami.

their is no drive in a public school to be better than anyone else after u have yer 'lifetime' contract off the school i've had teachers who saught fit to go clean up out side rather than do irish class for months at a time. I've had teachers sit in front of me with a new paper basically beacuse they couldn't be arsed teaching. Benchmarking would mean that those teachers get ****ty salaries and should get fired.Currently in my estimate from what would be considered to be a very high results school Ardscoil Ris in limerick 90% of the teachers couldn't care less and are brutal...mostly out of lazyness.

<Sigh> I started this post with an assumption that you had a basic knowledge of what you were trying to talk about and would be dealing with real issues.
I guess i was wrong.
Again, your impression of the benchmarking system is totally wrong. Benchmarking will not mean that each teacher will be assessed indiviually and payed accordingly. Thats just stupid.

I moved to bruce where camera's in the classroom's and a principle who had power and cared that we get our courses (granted we pay enuf for that attention) means every teacher is willing to bend over backwards....no bad teacher survives longer than a year with student survey's of teachers proformance n spot check's by the principle whereas the 'inspector' who i've seen in public schools seems to do sweet **** all.

Like I said, Bruce college, and a couple of others in Ireland (such as the Institute of Education on Leeson Street) are exceptional cases. You pay through your nose to get in, and youre guaranteed to be taught well. But you can be damn sure that those teachers dont get normal teacher rates - who do you think youre paying enormous sums of money to? A charity organisation?

Now unless you wanna inform yourself fully n stop taking a biast view keep to yerself there's a good lad :cool:

I cant believe this guy...

I have taken a particular interest in this issue, and have been fully informed since the issue first arose. Why? Because both my parents are in education, my mother is a teacher (now retired for health reasons) and my father is a private school principal. You could say that this would give me a biased outlook, and youre probably right, but I assure you, having taken an active interest in this matter, I really believe that teachers arent payed well.

First off - teaching is a profession. It require spending 4/5 years in college - you need both your basic degree and a H Dip. After this amount of time you expect to be reasonably paid - however, its notable that you can walk into a higher paid job straight out of school these days. The pinnacle of irony came last year when a principal in a school around this area last year quit his job to become a labourer on a building site. Thats how badly teachers get paid.

Secondly, while I dont agree with everything the ASTI does (well, nor do a lot of its own members!), I do feel that they have a valid claim to a decent pay rise. They requested 30%, but advertised their own cause poorly - this was only a further ~8% on what they were going to get anyway due to benchmarking (which was designed only to keep up with inflation). However, the government treated them like sh!t. They were pasted all over the news and the papers to be the bad guys. Michael Woods is known for being a conservative dinosaur, and he really treated the situation in an 'ignore it and it will go away' fashion.

Finally, I have to tackle a couple of Serialkiller's points. You get bad workers in every profession, some are not suited to the job, others simply dont care. The shortage of teachers, due to the fact that its such an unattractive and unrespected profession nowadays, means that schools have very little choice as to which teachers they keep or send packing. As for long holidays - many junior teachers see fit to get a job during the holidays, as they cant support themselves decently on their meagre salary.

Serialkiller - you are what is commonly known as an idiot. If you really feel the urge to reply to this, please dont expect me to read it.

A

Asuka

Typedef, im pretty sure youre not an idiot, just mis-informed, so Ill reply to your post when i feel like boring the pants off you some more

A

Nietzschean

ok just to respond to a few things....

Please, allow me to call you an idiot. The difference between public and private schools is almost purely aesthetic at this point. Private school administrations have a little more freedom to do what they want, but the point at issue here (ie the teaching) is no different. When a teacher applies for a job, they are not going to worry about whether a school is public or private - the conditions are the same and the pay is the same no matter what school they teach in.

if u must know bruce has classes from 1st year thru to 6th year.
Secondly purely astectic? it would appear your connection to teachers namely your parents have made your view fairly damn biast. Firstly i would except and expect that teachers in bruce get paid more but then they are graded on their proformance they get raises and get fired based on this - Just like all other professionals.

Ok, here you appear to be trying to win this argument by confusing me... Can anyone else make sense of what this guy is trying to say? Your precious Bruce college has yet to teach you to speak coherently...

If u must know i do pass english and completely suck at any language.........

Bullsh!t. Your knowledge of the benchmarking system is closely approximate with your skill of sexual origami.

and your idea of what sort of benchmarking should be used is? or due to your parent professions you feal that maybe they should keep getting paid more even if they do sweet **** all?

First off - teaching is a profession. It require spending 4/5 years in college - you need both your basic degree and a H Dip. After this amount of time you expect to be reasonably paid - however, its notable that you can walk into a higher paid job straight out of school these days. The pinnacle of irony came last year when a principal in a school around this area last year quit his job to become a labourer on a building site. Thats how badly teachers get paid.

First off i don't deny some teachers could do with getting paid better, i don't know your parents maybe they deserve to be getting paid double what they are but not all teachers do.More pay should be given but only with some form of rating of teahers....

However, the government treated them like sh!t. They were pasted all over the news and the papers to be the bad guys. Michael Woods is known for being a conservative dinosaur, and he really treated the situation in an 'ignore it and it will go away' fashion.

Hey didn't see the ASTI comming up with any great plans "we want 30% with no changes to the way we do things" therefore the government had no choice but to take the hardline they did

and since you called me an idot u twat i had to reply, I would take some notice of what u said except its quite obvious you are completely biast. :rolleyes:

seamus

Serialkiller & Asuka - leave out the petty insults and condescending remarks at the end or your posts or I'll just the delete the whole things. This is an interesting argument, with good points by both of you, but the small remarks make you both look like pratts.

Asuka

Seamus - I dont see the problem here, im only calling a spade a spade (or in this case, an idiot )

It doesnt matter anyway, as far as im concerned this discussion is over. Serialkiller, I suggest you read up on the benchmarking system and familiarise yourself with what it means.

In closing, 2 statements...

'Never argue with an idiot, as they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.'

'Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special Olympics - even if you win, you're still retarded.'

A