Ladies Only?

SheroN

I went to go for a swim the other nite, but was told "sorry it's ladies only", that's fair enough. But if things were reversed (i.e. "men only"), womens lib would be out for blood. Why do women need their own swim? Self conscious over their bodies?
has anyone heard of a "men only" swim?
-sHer

mike65

Its the same old story...women plainly dont particuarly need
a dedicated night any more than men but hey in this world
logic does'nt extend to both sexes...ahem...(ducks for cover )

Mike.

Meh

You do know that's illegal under the Equal Status Act, right? Personally, I wouldn't give a toss, but if it bothers you, you can always sue them..

ReefBreak

Let us know how you get on the next time they stop you. Suggest a men-only night to the management for another part of the week just to see how they react...

To be homest, I've actually no problem with a women-only policy. I do have a problem with the reaction that might be caused with a men-only policy. It's a double-standard towards equality that applies across a lot of situations in Ireland.

koneko

There should be a seperate night for both, really.

But as far as I can tell men don't really want a seperate night, or I've never heard one mention it before...

Consider it's different going swimming as a gal (I should know...) than as a guy. If you want to go swimming for the actual sport/hobby, a lot of us prefer not having men all around you oogling your swimsuit-clad body. It's not exactly relaxing...

Xterminator

Koneko,

Seeing as most of your body is underwater when your swimming, the ogling aspect is hardly a factor, when actually swimming.

I can understand that you (as a sex) might 'think' you are being lusted after, but thats a perception you might just have to get over.

The point is, if it is acceptable to exclude Gents, to allow women feel more comfortable, why was the same argument, when put forward by Publicans who wanted to allow the men to enjoy a male only clientel, (so men didnt have to worry about how they look, talk etc. ) why was it that this argument was not acceptable to society when the roles where reversed?

X

koneko

Originally posted by Xterminator
I can understand that you (as a sex) might 'think' you are being lusted after, but thats a perception you might just have to get over.

Fact is some women feel more comfortable swimming, or walking around a pool (oh dear god not in water! gasp!), when they know they're not going to be hit on, or oogled, or whatnot. It's like going on a girly night to a gay bar

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all men do this. But being a woman, and a swimmer, it does happen a lot. Surely if there's demand, why shouldn't there be a seperate girly night?

Though I do agree there should be a men's only night for those that want it. Not everyone has a problem with that, you know...

seamus

Originally posted by koneko
Fact is some women feel more comfortable swimming, or walking around a pool (oh dear god not in water! gasp!), when they know they're not going to be hit on, or oogled, or whatnot. It's like going on a girly night to a gay bar

In fact, studies have proven that women do more 'oogling' then men at swimming pools, beaches, etc. Why should men have to be excluded because women are uncomfortable with themselves, which is the actual case. They think people are saying things, when in fact they're not. All other men will agree with me on this.

Dr. Loon

Originally posted by seamus


In fact, studies have proven that women do more 'oogling' then men at swimming pools, beaches, etc. Why should men have to be excluded because women are uncomfortable with themselves, which is the actual case. They think people are saying things, when in fact they're not. All other men will agree with me on this.

What studies? I really don't believe that, even though I'm speaking as a man, I'm sorry but I can't back you up there...

Meh

Originally posted by koneko
Fact is some women feel more comfortable swimming, or walking around a pool (oh dear god not in water! gasp!), when they know they're not going to be hit on, or oogled, or whatnot. It's like going on a girly night to a gay bar

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all men do this. But being a woman, and a swimmer, it does happen a lot. Surely if there's demand, why shouldn't there be a seperate girly night?

If some asshole is leering at you at the pool, stand up for yourself and either tell them to fvck off or tell the lifeguard. But don't scapegoat all men for the behaviour of a tiny minority. If you have so little self-confidence that the mere presence of males while you are dressed in a swimsuit offends you, then perhaps public swimming pools are not for you.

Originally posted by seumas:
In fact, studies have proven that women do more 'oogling' then men at swimming pools, beaches, etc.

Really? Which studies? (Anything you read in the National Enquirer doesn't count.)

seamus

Originally posted by Meh
Really? Which studies? (Anything you read in the National Enquirer doesn't count.)

I was surprised too, but they were bona fida studies that I had read of in a research paper.

If you have so little self-confidence that the mere presence of males while you are dressed in a swimsuit offends you, then perhaps public swimming pools are not for you.

Which, as I said, is the real issue here.

Meh

Originally posted by seamus
I was surprised too, but they were bona fida studies that I had read of in a research paper.

Which studies? Which research paper? Unless you post a link to back yourself up, I'm just going to discount this completely.

seamus

Originally posted by Meh

Which studies? Which research paper? Unless you post a link to back yourself up, I'm just going to discount this completely.

I would have posted a link by now . I had read it on paper, so I have no link (or name in fact because I don't remember )

ReefBreak

Here's a study: I swim 3+ times a week. On plenty of occasions I've seen a groups of women (mostly 1 or 2) "checking-out" guys around the pool, followed by a smart/insulting comment and a girly giggle.

Of course, it's perfectly acceptable for women to ogle/laugh/comment... Men have to be far more discrete or else they'll be staring in the face of Ms Self-Righteous Man-Hater and a barring from the pool.

kayos

Originally posted by koneko

Fact is some women feel more comfortable swimming, or walking around a pool (oh dear god not in water! gasp!), when they know they're not going to be hit on, or oogled, or whatnot. It's like going on a girly night to a gay bar

Well if you really want to be like that about it whats not to say there are a load of lesibains in the pool who are oogling at you and passing comments and about to hit on you?

Originally posted by koneko

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all men do this. But being a woman, and a swimmer, it does happen a lot. Surely if there's demand, why shouldn't there be a seperate girly night?

Because if there was a demand for a men only night there would be out cry if women want equal rights then men should be allowed men only nights. You can ask anyone who knows be I am all on for equal rights so I'm not trying to knock equal rights I'm just trying to point out their not equal anymore they have swung the other way. The worst thing to be in the states when trying to get a job is a single young white male

Originally posted by koneko

Though I do agree there should be a men's only night for those that want it. Not everyone has a problem with that, you know...

You may not but most would and they would call it unfair and something from the darkages.

After working in London for a while I fine that men over here are a hell of a lot more sexist then Irish men. In saying that it is not in a "stop the woman getting a job" way but more in the jokes and comments made towards women.

kayos

Aspro

I haven't gone to a swimming pool in years so I wasn't aware of the women-only nights or the reason behind them but as has been pointed out by Koneko (a woman) there is a demand for them for a particular reason.
This can hardly be compared to the remnants of the men-only pubs which thankfully managed to drag themselves out of the dark ages. They were throwbacks to the era of women chained to the sink (places where women weren't meant to be seen), whereas the swimming pool issue appears to be one of privacy and security for women. Totally different ball game. As a bloke I don't wan't to go into a pub that's men only. If any of the lads here feel strongly enough about it Koneko has already mentioned a well known watering hole on George's Street.

So before this becomes a stupid battle of the sexes argument I propose that every pool should have one women-only night, one men-only night (if desired) and the rest of the week mixed.

Kolodny

This should definitely be a two way thing - if you're going to have single gender swimming sessions it should apply to both genders (ogling certainly does!)

Meh

Originally posted by Aspro
This can hardly be compared to the remnants of the men-only pubs which thankfully managed to drag themselves out of the dark ages.

Could you explain to me what exactly the difference is? Both situations involve members of one gender being unfairly denied access to facilities because they belong to the "wrong" sex.

whereas the swimming pool issue appears to be one of privacy and security for women. Totally different ball game.

So you are saying that women con't feel private/secure if there's even a single man in the swimming pool? Now who's a throwback to the dark ages?

Xterminator

Originally posted by koneko


Fact is some women feel more comfortable swimming, or walking around a pool (oh dear god not in water! gasp!), when they know they're not going to be hit on, or oogled, or whatnot. It's like going on a girly night to a gay bar

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all men do this. But being a woman, and a swimmer, it does happen a lot. Surely if there's demand, why shouldn't there be a seperate girly night?

Though I do agree there should be a men's only night for those that want it. Not everyone has a problem with that, you know...

You missed my point entirley Koneko.

My point was that when men wanted men only clubs bars etc, they put forward the argument that they wanted these places sot he could fell comfortable, not have to worry ablout being ogled by Women, or hit on by a woman etc.

This was rejected by society, as unacceptable. No you cant have your men only premises.
So in what way was that differrent than women wanting to exclude men?

You cannot exclude people based on there gender.

Should that be changed to

Men cannot exclude women based on there gender, but being different to men, Women can exclude men, if they feel uncomfortable!

By ASpro

This can hardly be compared to the remnants of the men-only pubs which thankfully managed to drag themselves out of the dark ages. They were throwbacks to the era of women chained to the sink (places where women weren't meant to be seen), whereas the swimming pool issue appears to be one of privacy and security for women. Totally different ball game. As a bloke I don't wan't to go into a pub that's men only. If any of the lads here feel strongly enough about it Koneko has already mentioned a well known watering hole on George's Street

Wrong Aspro, it is excactly the same situation.
There were plenty of bars women could go to. But they wouldnt let men have private man only bars where the men could relax, and not have to 'behave' in a politically correct manner.
At the time cursing on front of women was frowned on, for example. Also Men felt obliged to dress a different way, (probably cleaner) because of the presence of women.

It didnt mean men and women couldnt mix elsewhere, in other bars, it just meant there was no pleace they could go when they didnt want to mix with women. it removed the CHOICE!

And women ignored the feelings of these men, and forced these equality rules.
OK
But it works both ways!

Finally have you been in the George, or Out on the Liffey recently? There are plenty of women in these pubs.
As there are in many 'gay establishments.

By the way wanting a male only option does not imply you are gay. Thats just childish.

X

Aspro

Originally posted by Xterminator
Wrong Aspro, it is excactly the same situation....At the time cursing on front of women was frowned on, for example. Also Men felt obliged to dress a different way, (probably cleaner) because of the presence of women.

I don't think having one night that excludes men in a swimming pool and having an entire establishment that excludes women every night are the same thing. If you want to fart and let the beer belly out in public then feel free. The bar section of my local pubs still cater for this.
In the case of men-only pubs I think society realised that half the people in one community can't be excluded from somewhere (every night) just because the other half wanted it that way (and publicans realised all the more money they could make).
There is no swimming pool to my knowledge that universally excludes men. We're talking about one night of the week afaik. That's hardly gender discrimination in the same sense.

Xterminator and Meh, I won't insult your intelligence by presuming you don't know about some of the sensibilities of women. Many are not comfortable with their physical appearance, yet still would like to do things like swimming. Society tells them they should look a certain way and many of us men judge them by that. Others, as Koneko mentioned just want to swim without being hassled.
This is an understood cause of unease for certain women and is therefore even catered for within the Equal Status Bill 2000, section 5, subsection 1:

http://www.odei.ie/Web-Images/EqualStatusAct2000.pdf.

"A person shall not discriminate in disposing of goods to the public generally or a section of the public or in providing a service, whether the disposal or provision is for consideration or otherwise and whether the service provided can be availed of only by a section of the public"

subsection (2): Subsection 1 does not apply in respect of :
(g) differences in the treatment of persons on the gender ground where embarrassment or infringement of privacy can reasonably be expected to result from the presence of a person of another gender"

My point was that when men wanted men only clubs bars etc, they put forward the argument that they wanted these places sot he could fell comfortable, not have to worry ablout being ogled by Women, or hit on by a woman etc.

Show me a bloke that wouldn't sell his mother if he knew of a place that he was guaranteed to be ogled by women or hit on!!
Jesus Xterminator, you must be one good looking f*cker!!

Victor

Originally posted by Aspro
They were throwbacks to the era of women chained to the sink (places where women weren't meant to be seen), whereas the swimming pool issue appears to be one of privacy and security for women.

I used to swim a lot and I have never heard a security argument against men. If this was the case, how come so many women go to pubs where the will be drunken boisterous men. If nothing else a 'women only' night would only give the occassional oddball pyschopath a better 'target group'.

Trojan

Originally posted by Aspro

Show me a bloke that wouldn't sell his mother if he knew of a place that he was guaranteed to be ogled by women or hit on!!

You obviously never heard of a Gentlemens Club (and I'm not talking about that place you go down on Leeson St.).

Al.

Meh

Originally posted by Aspro
There is no swimming pool to my knowledge that universally excludes men. We're talking about one night of the week afaik. That's hardly gender discrimination in the same sense.

It's not as bad as your pub example; it's still gender discrimination nonetheless.

subsection (2): Subsection 1 does not apply in respect of :
(g) differences in the treatment of persons on the gender ground where embarrassment or infringement of privacy can reasonably be expected to result from the presence of a person of another gender"

"Reasonably" is the important word here. Is it reasonable for a woman wearing a swimsuit to be embarrassed if a man is in the same swimming pool as her? Of course it isn't -- anyone who is embarrassed in that situation has some severe body image problems/hangups. They don't need women-only swimming sessions; they need psychotherapy.

Aspro

Is it reasonable for a woman wearing a swimsuit to be embarrassed if a man is in the same swimming pool as her? Of course it isn't -- anyone who is embarrassed in that situation has some severe body image problems/hangups. They don't need women-only swimming sessions; they need psychotherapy

So you'd wear white swimming trunks in a cold pool, would you?
I know I wouldn't.

flyz

Originally posted by koneko
There should be a seperate night for both, really.

But as far as I can tell men don't really want a seperate night, or I've never heard one mention it before...

Consider it's different going swimming as a gal (I should know...) than as a guy. If you want to go swimming for the actual sport/hobby, a lot of us prefer not having men all around you oogling your swimsuit-clad body. It's not exactly relaxing...

Speak for yourself there koneko, don't try to be a representative for all females.

Personally I can't see the point of having a womens only night.
The majority of people (whether male or female) who go to the swimming pool go to swim, not to oogle.

What are they gonna do, sit under the water with an air tank and a pair of goggles??

Meh

Originally posted by Aspro
So you'd wear white swimming trunks in a cold pool, would you?
I know I wouldn't.

And what exactly does this have to do with anything? Yes, I would be embarrassed if I wore white trunks in a cold pool -- which is why I wear dark coloured trunks. I don't go around demanding that women and gay men be barred from the pool on the nights that I go swimming.

Victor

Originally posted by Aspro
There is no swimming pool to my knowledge that universally excludes men. We're talking about one night of the week afaik. That's hardly gender discrimination in the same sense.

It is in the same sense, not as extreme, but since when have rights depended on quantitative as opposed to qualitative reasoning. How about we pay women "only a little less" in their wage packets. Like only a few Euros, not much, it wouldn't be real discrimination would it?

Originally posted by Aspro
Xterminator and Meh, I won't insult your intelligence by presuming you don't know about some of the sensibilities of women. Many are not comfortable with their physical appearance, yet still would like to do things like swimming. Society tells them they should look a certain way and many of us men judge them by that. [/b]

I've not made my mind up on this point. By allowing such a situation aren't you just pandering to these insecurities and 'misguided' ideals (that you have to be a beautiful person). Think of the older, heavier, disfigured and disabled people that do go swimming without any such issues. I've seen the tall, the short, the short-sighted, the overweight, the 'Mr. Muscle' (he from the advertising campaign), the bald, the hirsute, the amputee (she was legless by the time she got to the pub afterwards ). One possible area of concern would be where someone has had a mastectomy (breast removal surgery), although I imagine prosthetics can resolve this.

The only thing that makes me anyway inclined to ogle (sp?) is the occasional see-through one-piece. The people who buy them should know better (and there was one girl who did - she gave me her phone number and asked me out).

Originally posted by Aspro
Others, as Koneko mentioned just want to swim without being hassled.

You are wet, cold, exhausted, short-sighted, your eyes sting from the disinfectant, your hair is all over the place and your pizza-gut over hangs your swimming shorts. "Impressing" women is the last thing on your mind. And if you are being hassled: swim away.

Originally posted by Aspro
This is an understood cause of unease for certain women and is therefore even catered for within the Equal Status Bill 2000, section 5, subsection 1:
subsection (2): Subsection 1 does not apply in respect of :
(g) differences in the treatment of persons on the gender ground where embarrassment or infringement of privacy can reasonably be expected to result from the presence of a person of another gender"

I imagine the interpretation of this clause is to protect changing rooms, toilets, intimate medical treatment and the like. "I am a member of the Judean Peoples Front, I demand access to the Ladies changing room."

bonkey

Its all very simple really. The law will only be enforced if someone complains. We dont have some investigative force going around all these places, ensuring that everything obeys to every rule. No - it is a case of "its legal till questioned". Whether this is right or wrong is immaterial - it is how it is.

Where women were receiving "lesser" treatment (i.e. exclusion from membership such as in mens clubs, or reduced-facility membership such as in golf) they can, and have taken issue, and the law backs them up.

Where the practice favours women, they have not taken issue - why should they? Most men dont take issue either, which results in a situation where the practice remains. This debate highlights the issue. Despite complaints of inequality, no-one has actually shown that they care enough about being discriminated against to lodge a formal complaint with the authorities, or to contact the authorities to question the legality. No-one cares enough to carry it to court.

The women who got let into bars and who got full membership of golf-clubs did care enough. They brought it to court.

Its not just a case of what and who the law protects - its a case of who actually cares enough to see that the law is upheld.

jc

Victor

Originally posted by Aspro
So you'd wear white swimming trunks in a cold pool, would you? I know I wouldn't.

Then don't!

Originally posted by bonkey
Where women were receiving "lesser" treatment (i.e. exclusion from membership such as in mens clubs, or reduced-facility membership such as in golf) they can, and have taken issue, and the law backs them up.

Some women have found this to be a double-edged sword, full membership has meant full membership fees and some have gone back to cheaper part-time (or whatever the term is) membership.

Regarding mens clubs / dining clubs (Stephens Green Club, Kildare St Club, Hibernian Club) I haven't heard anything. Of course who wants to sit around a bunch of old fogeys anyway?

Originally posted by bonkey
The women who got let into bars and who got full membership of golf-clubs did care enough. They brought it to court.

Invariably with pubs, they just adjusted to the 'writing on the wall' - they were afraid for their licences. no fuss that I heard of.

Asok

Originally posted by Aspro

presuming you don't know about some of the sensibilities of women. Many are not comfortable with their physical appearance, yet still would like to do things like swimming. Society tells them they should look a certain way and many of us men judge them by that. Others, as Koneko mentioned just want to swim without being hassled.
This is an understood cause of unease for certain women

uhm despite the auld popular belief alot of men feel like this too

Show me a bloke that wouldn't sell his mother if he knew of a place that he was guaranteed to be ogled by women or hit on!!
[/B]

thats a bit of a stereotype

personally my opinion on this is that it is a pretty good example of how equal rights have done somewhat of a 360 and now men are afraid to pipe up if there is a case of discrimination against the male gender.dont get me wrong i do believe and support equal rights but it has to swing both ways

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Meh

But don't scapegoat all men for the behaviour of a tiny minority. If you have so little self-confidence that the mere presence of males while you are dressed in a swimsuit offends you, then perhaps public swimming pools are not for you.

B]

2 points, if you dont 'oogle' women, you are probably an alien.
its not a sexual thing, its just that men do it. women do it to. its perfectly natural for someone to look at another person.
call it 40,000 years of conditioning.

it does however become offensive if you start going overboard, and thats where people would have difficulty drawing a line.

as fo rthe having little self confidence, thats not really any of your business to make critisisms of other peoples nuroesis.
perhaps hap-hazard remarks like this mean that you have a difficulty in understand other peoples problems, and therefore the boards.ie are not the place for you?

Meh

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
2 points, if you dont 'oogle' women, you are probably an alien.
its not a sexual thing, its just that men do it. women do it to.its perfectly natural for someone to look at another person.
call it 40,000 years of conditioning.

"Looking" is acceptable -- you can't expect men to avert their eyes whenever a woman passes by. Leering/staring/ogling is not.

as fo rthe having little self confidence, thats not really any of your business to make critisisms of other peoples nuroesis.

People's lack of self-confidence becomes my business once I am barred from a swimming pool at a certain time because of it.

perhaps hap-hazard remarks like this mean that you have a difficulty in understand other peoples problems, and therefore the boards.ie are not the place for you?

You're right -- I have difficulty understanding why I should be denied access to swimming pools because of other people's inadequacies, neuroses and hangups.

I think bonkey's right. Is this sexual discrimination? Yes. Is it illegal? Probably. Does it bother anyone enough for them to go to court over it? No.

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Meh
I think bonkey's right. Is this sexual discrimination? Yes. Is it illegal? Probably. Does it bother anyone enough for them to go to court over it? No.

/me thinks . o O (storm in a tea-cup)

Victor

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
/me thinks . o O (storm in a tea-cup)

You mean storm in a swimming pool?

What if it is really a women's nude swimming night?

neuro-praxis

I used to go swimming in Clondalkin leisure centre and they had both men's only nights and women's only nights. Well, it wasn't actually all night - it was men's 45 minutes and women's 45 minutes to be more accurate.

I think we need to take into consideration a couple of things. There are plenty of people who are not comfortable around members of the opposite sex when not properly clothed - eg. some middle-aged to old men and women, very overweight people, nuns, priests and so on. Offering them a men's only or women's only night is, in my opinion, a terrific idea.

Yes, these people have issues with their bodies and/or modesty, but apart from the blessed few, we all do. If they are more likely to swim in that environment, why put a stop to it? If you have a problem with a women's only night - then you have let political correctnesss get to your head. If on the other hand you want an all-men's night and there isn't one available - I suggest that you propose it at your local pool and I am sure it would be upheld.

My local gymn also holds men's only fitness classes and women's only fitness classes. This I think is also an excellent idea. For example, I don't think men are going to too concerned with toning their thighs and tummy whilst women might not want to do bodybuilding.

Et cetera.

And by the way - I think that if we are honest we will all admit that we don't mind being ogled at the pool. It's negative attention that we all are afraid of - or perhaps being the one person who is ignored. Comments from strangers, I think we can all agree though, are unfavourable at all times.

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by neuro-praxis
Comments from strangers, I think we can all agree though, are unfavourable at all times.

PHOAR! ya big ride ya!

kayos

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan


PHOAR! ya big ride ya!

roffle mayo

kayos

TwoShedsJackson

Originally posted by neuro-praxis
There are plenty of people who are not comfortable around members of the opposite sex when not properly clothed - eg. some middle-aged to old men and women, very overweight people, nuns, priests and so on. Offering them a men's only or women's only night is, in my opinion, a terrific idea.

A fair few priests would be more than happy at a men only night from what I can gather

koneko

I agree with neuro-praxis. I personally don't have a problem swimming amongst men (that sounds strange doesn't it, heh, amoongst). But I know people that rather wouldn't. Appearance is a touchy subject for some people, if you did a survey I'm sure most people would be unhappy with their appearance (though probably a lot of them will not admit to this). Meh you're being a little harsh though. Just because someone isn't pleased with their appearance doesn't mean they need therapy, come on.

If people from both sex feel more comfortable with men or women-only nights, then why not supply for that demand? As long as there's nights (or 45 mins as neuro said) for both, I don't see a problem with it.

lol @ WWM. Ya big silly.

Victor

Originally posted by koneko
Appearance is a touchy subject for some people, if you did a survey I'm sure most people would be unhappy with their appearance

Is their any class of person that I have not mentioned that you think would feel this way. I missed nuns & priests, but you generally can't recognise them at swimming pools. And I suspect most nuns & priests would be more open-minded on the matter than most people expect (certainly the ones that care for the sick, dying and dead).

One group possibly would be Muslim women (in particular from more conservative groups) who object to any man (outside family) looking at the body generally.

Originally posted by neuro-praxis
Comments from strangers, I think we can all agree though, are unfavourable at all times.

Anyway, how many people in swimming polls pass rude / lewd comments? Not that I'm approving of such behavior. If we never spoke to strangers, we would have no friends.

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Victor


If we never spoke to strangers, we would have no friends.

thats not true. ive slept with many women who ive never talked to let alone known their names.
i mean when youre a student and drunk the only stipulation you have is a recent heart beat. and even that can be tenuous sometimes......

then there are no strangers, just people youve shagged but dont the names of

koneko

Originally posted by Victor
Is their any class of person that I have not mentioned that you think would feel this way.

Not necessarily a group, but more people in general. A lot of teenage girls. I remember a lot of people I knew didn't always feel comfortable exposing bigger parts of their body around men. Suppose it's just a sensitive time for some people. People that are uncomfortable with their weight, or anything really. It just makes some people feel more comfortable, I don't see why that should be a problem.

Loomer

Originally posted by mike65
Its the same old story...women plainly dont particuarly need
a dedicated night any more than men but hey in this world
logic does'nt extend to both sexes...ahem...(ducks for cover )

Mike.

To the contrary, I have witnessed logic1 extend not only to both sexes but also an assortment of farm animals

Victor

Originally posted by koneko
Not necessarily a group, but more people in general. A lot of teenage girls. I remember a lot of people I knew didn't always feel comfortable exposing bigger parts of their body around men.

Like on holiday (in Lanzarote) where my 13 year old niece decided to go around fully clothed at the pool for the first few days, because she thought she had a 'big tummy' (she was a lanky 5'6" and 8 stone or so). Then she saw a woman in the queue for the swimming pool cafe (5'8" and 17 stone or so) wearing only the bottoms of a string bikini. My niece quite happily went around for most of the day in a modest one-piece after that.

Perhaps these teenagers need to be exposed to more body variety, not less.

logic1

I did not have sexual relations with that lady (and yes i did just find this thread now:))

.logic.