Let battle commence (J2EE V .NET)

dahamsta

http://www.economist.com/business/displayStory.cfm?story_id=989243

Good article, but I'm posting it because of the associated graphic - it made me laugh.

Always Root For The Underdog.

adam

marauder

Good article on Ars talking about what .NET really is

http://arstechnica.com/paedia/n/net/net-1.html

Typedef

The real danger arises when Microsoft start trying to influence hardware sold to the end user so that it will in effect be windows only.

The winmodem is an example of how such things are bad (fortunately the linmodem has come along way with a lexicon of conexant chipsets supported now) so, if .NET gets fully implemented it will effectively mean the end of unix on intel x86 arch, I seem to remember reading about how microsoft want to change your pc into effectively a remote terminal with ram that 'leases' software from a central server somewhere so that the files don't reside on a hard disk(because you won't need one).

It all seems a bit monopolistic, that said I did sort of like my install of vs.net beta 2(did I just say that? I think not?), not that I've used it, in fact I might even nuke my windoze partition, pretty much unused space on my hard disk as things stand right now
<lessens *nix uber rant.... sulks off to adam's other forum of kind dictatorship>

JustHalf

I thought this wasn't the board for this type of thing, dahamasta?

dahamsta

S'about .NET, ain't it? I didn't invite people to diss Windows or .NET, I just like the graphic man!

Okay, let's get back on track: Windows .NET v. J2EE, discuss.

EDIT: Also, I think this is as valid a place as any to dicsuss Microsoft's monopolistic practices, and how it affects Windows users, etc. As long as people don't start evangelising (adam looks in Typedef's direction) and whinging, I have no objection to a debate. Boston?

adam

Hobbes

Based on MS track record for security issues I'd bet on J2EE.

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by dahamsta


, I think this is as valid a place as any to dicsuss Microsoft's monopolistic practices, and how it affects Windows users, etc

how exactly does someones business practise effect the end user?
does it make windows faster??

idgo with .net purely for ease of use and less complications.

dahamsta

how exactly does someones business practise effect the end user?

Artifical pricing, lack of choice...?

does it make windows faster??

Don't be silly.

adam

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by dahamsta
how exactly does someones business practise effect the end user?

Artifical pricing, lack of choice...?

does it make windows faster??

Don't be silly.

so, lets be honest here, the way a company practises business does not effect an end user.
it may effect your choice of OS or app. but once you buy something, it doesnt really matter a damn.
i mean, do you think mcdonalds would taste different if they told us they were opening a store in siberia?
no.
do you htink microsofts monopolistic overbearing tendencies will make an operating run faster. obviously not.

the topic is about .net and j2ee.

why not talk about the products instead of the developer for once.
can anyone around here actually talk about an MS product with out some muppet managing to sound like some sort of hellfire and brimstone unix evangalist?
or even worse, someone who uses a mac......

dahamsta

so, lets be honest here, the way a company practises business does not effect an end user. it may effect your choice of OS or app. but once you buy something, it doesnt really matter a damn.

I disagree. It affects you in numerous ways. How about security as a simple example? Microsoft have an atrocious record on security, preferring as they do to spin security flaws until such time as they feel it necessary (when the media coverage gets too hot) to fix them. This comes as a direct result of Microsoft's monopoly power, which was created by bad - and illegal - business practises.

i mean, do you think mcdonalds would taste different if they told us they were opening a store in siberia? no.

Yes. I fact, I don't /think/ it, I /know/ it. I've eaten in McDonalds in several countries, and most of them differ in taste to varying degrees, mostly because they use local sources for ingredients. Can you get beer in a McDonalds in Ireland? (Chicken nuggets are nicest in Germany by the way.)

do you htink microsofts monopolistic overbearing tendencies will make an operating run faster. obviously not.

I think that's a spurious argument thrown out there to illustrate a point quite badly, but I'm happy to bite since you repeat it - I believe that if Microsoft decided that making their operating system run faster or slower would benefit them, they would go ahead and do it, and people would to a degree be forced to accept it because of their monopoly. Given Microsoft's behaviour in the past, I doubt you could refute this and get much support.

the topic is about .net and j2ee. why not talk about the products instead of the developer for once.

I'm sorry, who was it that started the thread? Was it me? I think it was. And I hesitate to repeat, but: "As long as people don't start evangelising ... and whinging, I have no objection to a debate." As it happens, I was referring to the forum in general, but I have no objection to people looking at the bigger picture on this, or any, topic. I would be happy to encourage it in fact, since it should produce a higher quality debate.

.NET will be affected by Microsoft's business practises just as much as their local OS's, and if anything I would suggest that they will be affected in far more diverse ways. The entire concept of, for example, file and record storage on remote Microsoft-controlled servers is very troubling to me, and I don't say that as an OSS evangelist (which I undeniably am) but as a Microsoft user myself -- I'm typing this into Notepad on Windows 2000, using a Natural Professional keyboard, and occasionally an Intellimouse Explorer.

This doesn't apply exclusively to .NET though, I have the same concerns about J2EE, Sun and the Liberty Alliance. I would even be concerned about Mono to a degree -- it isn't so much the platform that bothers me, as the concept of remote storage. It still has a huge bearing on the development and success of these webapps though.

can anyone around here actually talk about an MS product with out some muppet managing to sound like some sort of hellfire and brimstone unix evangalist?

I'll assume that that wasn't directed at me, because I /know/ that a fellow mod would be disinclined to wander into another mod's forum and start dissing their opinions and ideas. That would be just plain rude.

or even worse, someone who uses a mac......

And that /is/ rude. Tongue in cheek I assume?

adam

Lemming

Originally posted by dahamsta
the topic is about .net and j2ee. why not talk about the products instead of the developer for once.

.NET will be affected by Microsoft's business practises just as much as their local OS's, and if anything I would suggest that they will be affected in far more diverse ways. The entire concept of, for example, file and record storage on remote Microsoft-controlled servers is very troubling to me, and I don't say that as an OSS evangelist

To back dahamsta up on that one ... when the EULA for "Hailstorm" was released the fine print basically said something along the lines of ...

"Anything that you store on an M$ Hailstorm server is automatically the property of M$" That's the very short and curly version, and I'm not sure if they've changed the EULA (probably not, hoping everyone will forget)

So WWM ... I think for .Net, the product and the developer ARE very much intertwined.