Fintan O'Toole's Appearance on the Late Late

Kopf

Was just watching the Late Late show and in particular Fintan O'Tool's debate with the Wolfe Tones about the (questionable) nature of the Wolfe Tones' songs. Now, don't get me wrong, i'm a big opponent of censorship, and Fintan obviously doesn't advocate it either, but his problem was with the Wolfe Tones advocating IRA terror in the North and not accepting responsibility for this.

His arguement was really very well put forward, better than I can do justice in this post, but the audience was obviously very pro-Wolfe Tones and anti-thinking.

I noticed as relevant how the few people in the audience (2 in fact) that suported Fintan also put their arguements forward in a very articulate manner. The Wolfe Tones didn't do as good, to say the least. They dodged the well-formed questions of Fintan with no grace at all and however flew through the debate on the wings of the audience's gutter, animal roars and shouts which, in vain, tried to fluster and distract O'Toole.

I'd like to know the opinions of those who watched the show.

mike65

I was watching Frasier on 4 I put the debate on tape so I'll post tomorrow but I can well imagine the form of both sides.

One thing struck me as I glipsed the intro though, whatever the Tones sins against music and tolerance its thier facial hair that should get them sent to straight to Hell.

Mike.

MarcusGarvey

Originally posted by Kopf
.....but his problem was with the Wolfe Tones advocating IRA terror in the North and not accepting responsibility for this.

One governments terrorists are the oppressed peoples freedom fighters. The Wolfe Tones were great recruiters for republicanism years ago. But at the time there was some serious **** going on up in NI which almost brought the country to war and the band cashed in on this unease and tension while also helping to make it worse.

They shouldn't fob off what they were doing though. I wouldn't go as far as saying that they were advocating terror. It was more advocating rebellion. However thats me playing with semantics a la Whitehall so I'll stop that there.


but the audience was obviously very pro-Wolfe Tones and anti-thinking.


Most Irish people are nationalists and republican sympathisers deep down, whether they'll admit it or not. Just look at Gerry Adams on the Late Late a few years ago. He almost got a heros welcome. I would not be surprised to see him going for the Irish Presidency one day.

From what I've been told from people that were around when the Tones were at their height , songs like "Men Behind The Wire" almost replaced the National Anthem in some dancehalls on a Saturday night. I believe it stayed in the charts for a very very long time. Something like this will stick with people from that generation forever and make these bearded gentlemen godlike. A year of radioplay for a song about Internment will never be forgotten.

Classing the audience as being anti-thinking is just trolling. Many of the worlds best thinkers had opinons that horrified, unnerved and upset people. These people are free to have opinons that differ with others including Fintan O'Toole.

-- Going Off topic --
What pisses me off about the new breed of Wolfe Tones supporters is that they have not a clue of the recent history that made this band so popular. Them drunkily singing Tones songs and roaring "Up the IRA" without knowing the reasons why the provos are around annoys me greatly. They're as bad as those English **** shouting "Its coming Ome , its coming Ome, footballs coming Ome "

Shinji

They're as bad as those English **** shouting "Its coming Ome , its coming Ome, footballs coming Ome "

Oh no. Football may indeed suck piss, but its loutish fans (be they in England or elsewhere) don't have anything on Irish armchair republicans roaring slogans they barely understand in pure offensiveness stakes.

It's one thing to get drunk and shout about your favourite sports team. It's another thing entirely to get drunk and start shouting support of murderers and terrorists.


obWolfeTones;

Expecting them to mount a sensible defence of their music is a bit much really. They'd have to evolve their thinking past "ugh, my knuckles are all bloody from dragging on the ground" in order to get that far. It's vicious tripe that cashes in on a culture of hatred, and while I'm no fan of censorship, it dismays me to see scumbags like that continuing to get airtime, even in the form of that Late Late debate.

Von

I thought it was top entertainment (the irish american lady was a class touch) but they should have had Ding Dong Denny O'Reilly on. To provide a bit of balance and calm things down like.

Boston

Kopf why is it, that people like you, acuse people who disagree with you as "anti-thinking, "ignorant" "small minded" "bigoted"

though Fintan made a fine point "i dont care if you supported the Ira, its the fact you wont admitt it you did"

We, all of us would be hypocrites to condem somebody for doing something they felt was right, and if the wolf tones felt in their heart it was then that is one thing, but dont then come back and play innocent and pretend you werent aware of what you were doing, your view point may have changed, you may not support the ira anymore, which is fair enough.

i felt the audience, kept trying to trun it into an pro ira or anti ira debate, which it wasn't.

Typedef

Censorship is censorship.

Ian Paisley has said questionable things about Catholics and has incited people to violence, he was never censored in the way Sinn Fein were censored.

<Rest of Rant Curtailed... it's an election year people>

mike65

Well I could have written the script myself, both Fintan O'Toole
and the Blundertones were true to type, he wagged his finger and got a little agitated, they blustered and played to the bone- heads in the cheap seats.

I'm with Fintan on this one, but I would'nt invest so much energy in a bunch of second-rate songsmiths who will deny all knowledge and as was pointed out have made a tonne of money out of exploiting the politics of the last 30 years.

Mike.

MarcusGarvey

Sinn Fein were censored as they were a legitimate threat as they were able to intelligently put their point across. Paisleys just a hater of anyone thats not Protestant.

Its good that he isn't censored. Makes all the others look somewhat rational.

Victor

When one considers the songs that the Wofle Tones have doen, one has to look at the opposite end of the spectrum where, in Loyalist drinking clubs, people were singing about killing 'Taigs' (Catholics). All in all I think both were extremely unhelpful.

Shinji

in Loyalist drinking clubs, people were singing about killing 'Taigs'

Tsk. It's a well known fact that Loyalists can't sing

SheroN

The wolfetones totally exploited a situation. (i.e. using the republican cause to make money). I know they were asked to play at a sinn fein function for a reduced rate and they refused to!
They do attract drunken idiots, but people read into them far too much, they're good session music.

amp

Denis Leary sums up my thoughts on this with his seminal "Traditional Irish Folk Song".

Also I have great respect for Fintan O'Toole due to his occasional hosting of The Last Word. He's a witty sarcastic bástard.

dobdobdo

Having watched the debate I disagree with the views of Fintan O'Brien.

Although FOT was certainly more articulate then the WT this is probably because of his 3rd level education and years working in the media which I doubt the WT had? Was he never told that it is rude to point? But I also think that his theory that the WT were somewhat responsible for IRA attrocities and some people who attended their concerts went straight out and joined the IRA, is wrong.
The WT are in the entertainment business (not everybodys cup of tea) and I gather they have sold alot of records in their 36years. Many of their songs where written well before the peace process and Celtic Tiger and are based on Irish History. Now having attended a WT concert many moons ago in the Wexford Inn before an All Ireland Final, I admit I had great craic, got drunk, probably shouted the chorus "up the ra" so does this put me in the catagory of gurrier and lowlife? Or is it political correctness gone too far?

Is everyone who attended a WT concert and enjoyed it an IRA supporter?
Is everyone who bought a WT record an IRA sympathiser?

Are the English responsible for countless injustices in Ireland?
Are the English responsible for countless atrocities in Ireland?

Are the WT entitled to write and sing about these? You don't expect them to sing "the Sash" do you?

MarcusGarvey

He might do it fulltime in June. Eamos not going to be staying apparently, though he might be playing El PayIncrease Bluff

Boston

Originally posted by dobdobdo
Having watched the debate I disagree with the views of Fintan O'Brien.

Although FOT was certainly more articulate then the WT this is probably because of his 3rd level education and years working in the media which I doubt the WT had? Was he never told that it is rude to point? But I also think that his theory that the WT were somewhat responsible for IRA attrocities and some people who attended their concerts went straight out and joined the IRA, is wrong.
The WT are in the entertainment business (not everybodys cup of tea) and I gather they have sold alot of records in their 36years. Many of their songs where written well before the peace process and Celtic Tiger and are based on Irish History. Now having attended a WT concert many moons ago in the Wexford Inn before an All Ireland Final, I admit I had great craic, got drunk, probably shouted the chorus "up the ra" so does this put me in the catagory of gurrier and lowlife? Or is it political correctness gone too far?

Is everyone who attended a WT concert and enjoyed it an IRA supporter?
Is everyone who bought a WT record an IRA sympathiser?

Are the English responsible for countless injustices in Ireland?
Are the English responsible for countless atrocities in Ireland?

Are the WT entitled to write and sing about these? You don't expect them to sing "the Sash" do you?

the thing is, the ira, often used the same line ro recruit members as the WT did to sell records. At the end of the days, no one was brainwashed, unless by the society that they grew up in.

If the wolftones are responsible for ira atrocities then so is the british goverment for years or ignoring the problems and then creating an atmosphere where people felt the ira was there only way out.,

the fnj

Originally posted by dobdobdo
I admit I had great craic, got drunk, probably shouted the chorus "up the ra" so does this put me in the catagory of gurrier and lowlife? Or is it political correctness gone too far?

Maybe your not a "gurrier" in the traditional sense but your an easily manipulated fool. "Ah sure I was only singing up the ra cause everyone else was doing it". It's that sort of attitude that cause so many problems.


It boils my blood every time I hear some sing the Fields of Athenry with the ad libs "IRA" "**** the Queen" etc.

Can neither side take the moral high ground. Every time it's well the unionists did this so we are going one better and doing this.

The Wolfe Tones make there money of psuedo Nationalists that live in nice houses in Dublin away from all the trouble. These people have nothing better to do then go on about how much they hate "Brits" how much the love Man Utd and how great it was to see Celtic wallop those prodies Rangers last week.

Also there is much better session music available that the Wolfe Tones if your looking for some trad to listen to.

Boston

It boils my blood every time I hear some sing the Fields of Athenry with the ad libs "IRA" "**** the Queen" etc.

I've been know to say that, cause its traditional, does that mean its the only one, no does it mean if you dont do it your not irish no.

Next you tell me its wrong to sing black and tans,

What is all this, because some muppet in the north calling themselfs the ira, run around with guns, we have to hide parts of your culture, that doesnt make sense to me.

whos the "easily manipulated fool" the guy who denies parts of his traditions because somebody might find it offencive, or the guy who does what he wants

pugwall

dobdobdo;

But I also think that his theory that the WT were somewhat responsible for IRA attrocities

That is wrong. He never stated or believes for that matter that the WT were responsible for IRA attrocities. Of his many theories, this certainly is not one of them.
Kopf has already made it clear what FOT stated;

but his problem was with the Wolfe Tones advocating IRA terror in the North and not accepting responsibility for this.

The debate made great TV. The 'tones came across as immature and FOT clearly came out as the 'winner'. (Although the majority of the audience didn't seem to think so)

the fnj

Originally posted by Boston


I've been know to say that, cause its traditional, does that mean its the only one, no does it mean if you dont do it your not irish no.

Yes I am such a muppet such a strong part of the Irish culture is to shout "F*ck the Queen" and chant the name of a terrorist organisation responsible for the suffering of thousands.

Don't be such an arse the song was not written with these words in it so why ad them in?

It's the ignorant people like you who keep the war in the north going.

By the way I am incredibly proud to be Irish and I would never try to suppress part of Irish culture. I find it hard to believe that you really believe that chanting F*ck the Queen is part of out culture.

bonkey

Originally posted by The FANJ
Don't be such an arse the song was not written with these words in it so why ad them in?

So you're telling me you have never added "Alice, Alice, who the fsck is Alice" to the chorus of "Living Next Door to Alice", or ad-libbed any song ever?

People adapt songs. Often humourously, often not. What should be taken into account is the intention of the singer, not the lyrics.

If I sing "give me hope Joanna", am I encouraging the violence which once took place in Jo'burg, or am I simply singing a song?

The Tones sang rebel songs to cash in on a situation. Their entire style was republican. Singing a song while drunk in the pub and adding in some lyrics which you hear quite often is neither ignorant, nor war-mongering. At best, it is a bit inconsiderate, but thats about it.

It's the ignorant people like you who keep the war in the north going.

I dunno. I would have said that its the massively intolerant people looking to read provoaction into every situation who perpetuate the war. Which seems to fit your attitude more than his.

By the way I am incredibly proud to be Irish and I would never try to suppress part of Irish culture. I find it hard to believe that you really believe that chanting F*ck the Queen is part of out culture.

I think you need to go and look up the difference between culture and tradition. They are not the same thing.

jc

Boston

I never called you a muppet,

And yes i believe "chanting F*ck the Queen" is A part of irish tradition, especialy were im from, but i never took this to mean anything to do with the north, more war of independance.

You blame the ira and condem them, but the simple fact is, they did, orginaly, what they had to do to protect there people, because hte people ment to protect them, had thrown them to the wolfs, and you can condem the bombing of english cities, but it was only after 30 years of bombing that an english goverement finaly woke up to the problems.

Theres never a good or a bad, allways to sides to every opsition.

In 20-30 years time, when northern ireland is at peace, real peace, your view might have changed somewhat.

I have no hatred towards the english people, because i dont feel the need to bottle it up, if i want to say **** the queen and they get offended that their tuff ****.
I allways find it amusing, that the ones he say the ira are this that and the other, and you ignorant for saying anything to that may in anyway support them, are often the most secterian amoung up when it comes to the english. Personaly i dont mind them.

Zero

Originally posted by Shinji
Expecting them to mount a sensible defence of their music is a bit much really. They'd have to evolve their thinking past "ugh, my knuckles are all bloody from dragging on the ground" in order to get that far. It's vicious tripe that cashes in on a culture of hatred, and while I'm no fan of censorship, it dismays me to see scumbags like that continuing to get airtime, even in the form of that Late Late debate.

They arent scumbags, they are nothing but crusty musicians, and how are they supposed to take part in an intellectual debate when they probably didnt even get a leaving cert? Irish Folk music was based on "getting out the English" for years, they were a big murdering thorn in Ireland's side for the better part of 800 years, its no surprise that the majority of Irish Trad songs are about it. And most of the WT songs are about history, like that dobdobdo so correctly pointed out earlier, not about the current vicious acts that go on now. (I said most, dont go pulling exceptions). You can't blame a bunch of crusty musicians for people joining the modern RA, I mean come on, the class of person who would listen to "come out ye black and tans" and then run out and join a bunch of child-murdering navaho scumbags, they are the neanderthals with nothing between their ears. People love pointing the finger, but pointing it at a bunch of uneducated inarticulate trad musicians is pretty fukkin dumb if you ask me.

Shinji

And yes i believe "chanting F*ck the Queen" is A part of irish tradition, especialy were im from, but i never took this to mean anything to do with the north, more war of independance.

Interesting, given that there was a King, not a Queen, on the throne in England during the war of independence at the start of the last century.

And most of the WT songs are about history, like that dobdobdo so correctly pointed out earlier, not about the current vicious acts that go on now.

Sure, and that's fair enough - like you said, most Trad is about the various uprisings and oppression by the English. That said, there are a lot of trad bands there who don't have the kind of "up the ra" following the Wolfe Tones have... They've attracted that kind of image, and thrived on it, and they've sure as hell never done anything to try and dispell it.

The whole intellectual debate thing doesn't hold water either. Leaving Cert or no Leaving Cert, if you're going to promote your views in public you have to be prepared to either put up or shut up.

Boston

dont be pedantic

bonkey

Originally posted by Shinji

Interesting, given that there was a King, not a Queen, on the throne in England during the war of independence at the start of the last century.

What??? You mean that "God Save the Queen" isnt the traditional British National Anthem either?

Or maybe, just maybe, people change the song to reflect the gender of the current monarch.

The whole intellectual debate thing doesn't hold water either. Leaving Cert or no Leaving Cert, if you're going to promote your views in public you have to be prepared to either put up or shut up.

Now, this I would agree 100% with. Of course, the view you air could simply be that you did not intend the songs to be taken as incitement. While this would imply insinsitivity and perhaps a degree of stupidity on their part, it is still a perfectly valid stance for them to have.

jc

Shinji

Or maybe, just maybe, people change the song to reflect the gender of the current monarch.

Sure. But I somehow doubt that most of the songs/catchphrases about the Queen that folk spout now originated from the War of Independence, in *either* form.

Boston

who said they did, not me, in fact the war predates the song in question. im surprised you didnt pick up on that. but basically thats were alot of this stuff stems from. Very little of it i would associate with the north