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havok*

(Warning Lenthy post, flick da kettle on)

Can somebody in the know explain this to me

As most ppl who read the boards know meh, I've been designing professionally for nearly 2 years now. Decided i wanted to get a Degree in Graphic Design, so i've been repeating the Leaving Cert and working freelance this year, to go for G.Design courses next year.

I'm @ professional Level on the owl computer, but (as a result of never doing art b4) am fairly p4nts @ freehand work. Which i've been working on this year and have improved quite alot, but tbh i'm no where near the level expected for entry into an art course.

I was down @ the Ballyer open day today, and had a chat with the Graphic Design Course Co-ordinater. Occording to him Places are graded entirely on Still life Drawing skill - (wtf?!?) and that anything else in there will be overlooked
At least most other colleges are looking for painting colour work which does actully have fair amount of relevance to design. (i'm currently working on Abstract designs using different freehand mediums)
But Take Dun Laoghaire for example who pretty much told me computer work no matter of the standard, published or is not, is not relevant to a portfolio.

If i worked in any other industry having industry expeirance would count towards getting into a relevent course for that industry. I really just cant understand their logic. Imagine being a journalist fulltime for a year, u decide to go for a college course only to be told ur handwriting is'nd good enuff, and typing skillz are irrelivent.

Having worked in the industry for a while i know how it works, i also know the most important trait of a designer is being able to formulate idea's. Should'nt proving your creative be a focal point of getting onto these courses??!?

In my last fulltime position there was a lad on the design team who was the best illustrator i've ever seen in my life. He freehand work was incredible, he also had a freelance contract out with 2000 AD doing the colour for some of their comics. His design however was fairly poor tbh. The Ability to draw well does not make u creative.
All the drawing skillz in the world wont really count for much if u cant come up with decent concept designs...

B4 i go any further i am well aware of the point that most ppl entering these courses are straight out of the Leaving Cert, and that drawing is going to be a be the major bulk of the work in most portfolios. That that good drawing skillz shows good observation and patience. And that 99.9% of portfilios submitted will be totally freehand work, fair enuff.
However why they choose to discard actual industry work simply becase its not hand rendered is completely beyond me.

I just think its fairly funny i can get a job in the industry, but not get on a course. I'm sure a fair few ppl here are on or have done g.design courses. Can any1 shead some light on why its set up like this?
Or any1 with any opinions on this?

ta

Hav

adnans

i think it's because colleges want to see that you have an interest in design. ie. by drawing, painting, doing mad portfolios etc. most of the graphic design courses in ireland still focus on the print side of things.

take NCAD for example. they hardly ever touch a computer or design website but they develop design skills in students for the whole three year of their Visual Communication course which can be applied in the old industry - "design consultants, book and magazine publishers, printers, advertising and publicity agents and as in-house designers for large corporations".

i have also applied for a graphic design course in both NCAD and Dun Laoghaire, but been refused by both cause of lack of traditional skills, painting, drawing, and other stuff even though i produced printouts of my designs done on a computer.

your next best thing imo is to try and apply for a Multimedia course somewhere (get ready for programming though) where a portfolio is not always required.

design has evolved with the internet and grown to many areas where certain traditional skills might not be as helpful.

adnans

PiE

Aye, I decided to apply for Multimedia courses rather than Graphic Design for the very reason: I suck at freehand :]

I was at the Open Day in Ballyfermot myself and I actually didn't like the place very much tbh :[

Btw:

His freehand work was incredible, he also had a freelance contract out with 2000 AD doing the colour for some of their comics.

Was his name Rory?

havok*

Originally posted by adnans
your next best thing imo is to try and apply for a Multimedia course somewhere (get ready for programming though) where a portfolio is not always required.

No point imo, i already know most the programes inside out. Its the thoery behind the industry i really want to learn

Originally posted by adnans
most of the graphic design courses in ireland still focus on the print side of things.
"design consultants, book and magazine publishers, printers, advertising and publicity agents and as in-house designers for large corporations".

Yeah, i do print design myself. But know alot more on the Screen side of the industry (web, animation etc)

Originally posted by PiE

quote:

---

His freehand work was incredible, he also had a freelance contract out with 2000 AD doing the colour for some of their comics.

---

Was his name Rory?

Nope


Tbh i think doing a portfolio prep course fulltime next year would probobly be my best bet. Its just very annoying having to go this far out to get on to a cource for an industry i'm already in.
Providing i do do a prep course, i'll have takin 2 years out to just to do this (and another 4 to finish after that), and it only took 1 year to get into the industry in the first place...

Monkey

Do you have sketches and notebooks of ideas that show how your designs have developed ? They like that stuff.

havok*

yeah monkey, tons of concept stuff. But its drawn so badly to anyone else it just looks like scribbles. I was actully thinking of redrawing some of the stuff and passing it of as the originals...

beaver

Design Courses
I believe that design is about two things. In a nutshell...

Primarily, in the commercial world at least, it's about being able to effectively communication information to your target audience. Do you need to be able to paint to accomplish this? I think not. You need to be able to visualise the best method of getting across the idea that you're trying to present. You need to know about colours, type faces, print and web standards, etc.

Secondly, I do think that having artistic skill is important, as art begets individuality. When something is individual and unique it becomes differentiated from other things in peoples minds. Therefore, it is easier to remember. Obviously this is of huge importance from a branding perspective. Consider, for example, an ad for Arial washing powder... Now consider, again just for example, the ad Sony ran for Playstation where the girl with the distorted head and a strange accent sat on a stool rambling on about something or other and had a weird laugh at the end. Which is more memorable?

The interface between these two aspects of design occurs where you are aware of established design techniques and understand why they work but where you are also in a position to conceive ways to be entirely new and unique in the achievement of your goal and understand where the successful union of the two meets.

Now, getting back to the courses, I think it's ludicrous that an institution offering a design course would essentially only look for one of these "requirements". It's an over-generalisation to say this, I know, but effectively, what they appear to be looking for is someone with some imagination and the hand-eye coordination to push a pencil over some paper. Little consideration seems to be given to a potential designers ability to be creative with whatever media they see fit -- as if it mattered!

To me, it seems downright backward to discount a method of design (i.e. computer aided) which is so versatile and which is obviously the way forward in terms of commercial design, at least for the time being.

Now, I understand where an institution may be coming from by demanding that concept and preliminary work is very important -- it shows that you are following some kind of design process whereby you conceive an idea, develop it and produce a final piece based thereon. Obviously this is important in a business situation where "time is money" and simply flying into a final piece will rarely reflect what was intended if that which was intended was not initially considered and expanded upon.

Sadly, however, I don't see how sketches, etc. will hold any water with these people if your final piece was rendered by a computer.

If there is anyone here on the boards that happens to be in an administrative position in an institution that offers such courses, I'd really love to hear your views on (a) whether you think this system is good or bad and (b) why.

Cheers,
-Ross

Raife

Hey Havoc!!

Thats gotta suck!!!

I was also at the Balfr open day, but i went for computer animation instead although i have stil yet to do my leaving cert and finish my portfolio i understand where your coming from.

There are alot of people who great at observational work, like spot on drawings but when it comes to imaginitive work they have'nt got an original bone in there body and yet they are praised at there skills and originality????

O.K. sorry went a little off topic mainly since it touches close to home. I'm sick of people in my art class who get top grades for ideas which were so obviously ripped off, when the imaginitive, original guys get lousy ones.

What i am trying to say is send in your portfolio, go for the interview and be yourself and if your work is not quite what there looking for, then try again next year.

Theres no harm in trying right???

I hope you get in!!!

Ltr!!
Raife!!

beaver

Think I've worked it out.

They don't want a general portfolio of what you're capable of. What they're giving you is a brief for a piece, i.e. the portfolio. All you have to do it create what they want.

Why they're testing these skills specifically is still beyond me...

alastair

Alright. I'm not connected with any institution (at least in relation to portfolio assessment), but have some insight as to the process at work.

The colleges receive hundreds of applicant portfolios. They look for visual awareness, compositional skills, originality (important when you are faced with hundreds of charcoal pepper still lives etc), a indication of hard work undertaken, and an enthusiasm (and some understanding of) the field of study/work.

They don't want (or need) to see anything particularly slick or 'finished'. They don't know the provenance of your work, or, in the case of commercial work, who else may have had a great creative input. Likewise, computer generated work may well have been assembled from other peoples ideas/aesthetic approaches. A portfolio assessor can't be expected to know what's original in this medium.

Drawing is one of the core determinants of a design capability. It's entirely to do with observation, composing elements, and aesthetic/stylistic decision making (media, texture, density, when to stop etc). It's a great leveller in terms of judging potential as a graphic designer. Where a specific brief is set it's even more useful.

The point is 'potential'. No design department is interested in taking on a student that has already formed a stylistic/work methology. College is a place to experiment, make mistakes, absorb, and learn. To that end, previous work experience is important only in indicating an interest in/andn dedication to the field of work. After all, you may have picked up many bad habits in your workplace.

My belief is that you don't NEED college to become a designer, but you DO NEED some sort of mentoring process that gives you access to a contextual education in relation to design practice, history, and theory. College is by far the easiest route to getting this (although it doesn't suit everyone, and some institutions are better than others at covering the important stuff).

hope that helps. for what it's worth I think the pain is worth it in the end.

lazer

hi...

if u want to get in to graphic design, but u cant draw... do Multimedia?

my mate is on the MMHND Multimedia course in ballyer, but he is on there DAME STREET CAMPUS...just over the sony shop on corner of Georges st.

call in whenever and anyone will talk with u, someone is nearly always having a smoke downstairs at the door anywho?

its on floor 2, and there is a lift to???

havok*

Alastair, nice 1

That does actully make a whole lot of sence now that i look @ it that way. I really really think a portfolio prep course is in order after the LC

Lazer Your probobly refaring to the IMP course on dame street. I did its sister course LUDO (right next door) 2 years ago. Theres no point in me doing a multimedia course, i'm already @ professional level with computer work. Multimedia courses only really teach you the programs, they dont get into proper design. I could go on another multimedia course, but i dont think i'll learn anything. Its the theory behind it all that i really want to learn.

p

Maybe you should look abroad.

I've seen a couple of people's portfolio's,
and not all of it was drawing. I saw alot of stuff that was collages and compositions.

*shrug*

I'm doing the Multimedia course in DCU and although it is very good,they do seem to have neglected the design element of it a little too much.

- Kevin

Monkey

"the Multimedia course in DCU" in retrospect I'm glad I missed that course by 5 points, it wouldn't have suited me at all.

p

Why's that?

I'm prety technical but there's still loads of stuff they teach us that useful. And of course access to all of the equipment and studios is damn cool. (:

Are you doing something else?

- Kevin

Monkey

Oh, it's just at the time I had no faith in my ability in fine art and had almost given up and I think that would have been a mistake, I'm sure it's a fine course, though.

I was thinking about having a couple of things printed to include in my portfolio today and I was reminded of this thread and a couple of things occured to me:

Is the stuff you've done (havok) all particular commercial projects like designs for a specific website etc because I don't think they want to see that. I think it's more exploring broader concepts they're after especially NCAD, your portfolio for them should mostly be fine art based.

In NCAD (I'm not sure about DIT or Dun Laoighre) you won't touch photoshop or illustrator or any of those until your 3rd year. The first is a core year, then you'd specialise in Vis. Communications, then your 1st year visual comm, would be spent learning about design and doing everything by hand, then in your 3nd year of vis. comm (3rd at the college) you learn the computer skills.

So if you haven't got traditional skills you might have difficulty with the way the 1st 2 years are run.

But then again I've seen the portfolio of someone went to DIT who couldn't draw technically very well at all - the art was all about ideas, a lot of it was simple line drawings and even just stickmen illustrating concepts (though NCAD wouldn't touch him because his lack of observational drawing).