Deporting 'Refugees' is not racist.

Xterminator

I am pissed off with all the bleeding hearts who are giving out about the deportation of 'refugees', who have been found to have no justification for claiming the term 'refugee' and are in fact economic migrants.The number of applicants who are genuine is a very small fraction of those who actually turn up here.

Entering the country illegally is an offense. these people should present themselves at an embassy, or point of entry (Docks or Airport) to claim refugee status. Anyone guilty of entering illegally, should be deported as a result of their criminal actions.

If someone wants to migrate to ireland, then they apply for a visa before travelling, showing wheter they have skills that are currently in short supply in our economy .. eg nurses, doctors etc. If they have no criminal record and it is mutually benifical to both us and them to allow them enter is fair enough.

But there seems to be an acceptance of people who
claim to be refugges, to gain entry. Then when found out as frauds, if the authorities deport them, is is portryed as wrong or cruel? Of couse the first thing they do, is try to have a child etc to circumvent due process.

"Oh theyve been here years, and theyve made friends, and there children are settled in Irish schools etc." If they made a false claim, they should be put out.

Certainly there is a need to speed up the process of approving or rejecting their applications. That way once approved they can then get a job, and show there not spongers. (This would help combat the perception these people are spongers.) If rejected, they can be removed.

There is an arguement for placing these people in humane secure accomidation for this waiting period, so that they dont abscond, an also so they can be helped, with such things as centally available healthcare, counselling (many have been through hard times) and english lessons etc.

Finally the current policy of housing these people immediately is not correct, while citizens wait on a list for years.

The immigrants should be given emergency B+B accomidation, then placed on the list for housing, like everyone else in Ireland.
When they have enough points, they get the house or flat. This would help combat the understanable envy and frustration felt by naturalised residents, who cant get a house for years, but see refugee applicants placed in salubrious accomidation immediatly, regardless of the cost.

X

Samson

I agree totally.
Whilst I am all for Ireland playing her part by taking in genuine refugees, very few of those that gain entry to this country are actual refugees.

Well as far as I see it, some of the current crop of "refugees" are not really refugees at all, but economic migrants who wish to come to Ireland not because they are fleeing from famine or persecution.
Word seems to have spread about our wonderful welfare state, which is why many of these people have passed through other European countries to come to Ireland.
For example, many come to us through France, which of course is a fully fledged civilised western European democracy, why is France not good enough ?
I'll tell you why: social welfare handouts in France do not come anywhere near the level of what these people get when they come to Ireland.

Now, I'm all for taking our share of legitimate refugees (nobody complained when we took our share of Bosnians in the early 1990s, or before that when we took in some of the "boat people").

As I said in this thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36879

Boston

Deporting is extremly important, without it we would be flooded

Sand

There is an arguement for placing these people in humane secure accomidation for this waiting period, so that they dont abscond, an also so they can be helped, with such things as centally available healthcare, counselling (many have been through hard times) and english lessons etc.

I agree with the above. It would also deal with the housing problems you mentioned because they wouldnt need to find accomadation immediately. Of course it will never fly because these places are death camps and at the end of the day the left wants to give them every possible opportunity to enter illegally and evade deportation orders.

The most interesting figure I found was there was 49 asylum claims in 1992 and 10938 in 2000. The only change in those years being our economic development. The vast, vast majority of these "refugees" are economic migrants and should be procesed as such.

Saruman

WOW a whole thread so far of I agree! Thats a first.. will it change? not with me i also agree... Of course we dont need to worry about those in European countries as we can come and go as we please in the EU member states.. its those outside the EU that can be classed as Illegal immigrants.. if they are political refugees thats fair enough. People point to Ireland saying most of our population left.. that was mainly down to politcal reasons also though... that and a famine.. there were a lot of economic reasons for leaving in the 70's and 80's but i dont think most of them were illegals! Some maybe but most would have entered the US and Australia etc legaly.. Uk not included as it was open between us.

TwoShedsJackson

I fully agree that anyone who enters illegally should be deported, as should obvious spongers and professional beggars like the Romanians I see every day around Grafton Street.

There is an arguement for placing these people in humane secure accomidation for this waiting period, so that they dont abscond, an also so they can be helped, with such things as centally available healthcare, counselling (many have been through hard times) and english lessons etc.

I don't agree with this, placing applicants in camps (which is what they would be) would simply marginalise them, and enforce division between them and current society.

Finally the current policy of housing these people immediately is not correct, while citizens wait on a list for years.

The immigrants should be given emergency B+B accomidation, then placed on the list for housing, like everyone else in Ireland.

Couldn't agree more - I'm trying to sort out getting a house at the moment, and on one relatively modest income it's a fecking joke, as we all know. However, there are Irish people screwing the system too, I know of several people that have exploited loopholes and so on to major advantage.

Samson

Originally posted by Sand
Of course it will never fly because these places are death camps

Nothing could be further from the truth.
These are the conditions prevailing in Mosney for example:

The main features of the direct provision system is that asylum seekers have all their accommodation, three main meals a day and snack outside mealtimes as well as heating, lighting and laundry paid for by the State. Each accommodation centre has to provide a mix of ethnic dishes, and menus are cycled at least every seven days to provide variety.

Sample menus include a minimum of six different cereals, three fruit juices, fruit, cheese, breads and beverages for breakfast, a choice of three main courses for lunch taken from lasagne, curry, chicken nuggets, spare ribs, Toulouse sausages, pizza, burgers or a selection of sandwiches.

Dinner must include a choice of two starters, as well as a selection of main course joints and dessert.

Each centre accommodating children must provide cots, infant food sterilisers, microwaves, fridges and kettles and tvs are provided in bedrooms and communal rooms, with foreign, usually east European and African, satellite channels installed.

Source: JEROME REILLY, Sunday Independent 02/12/2001
and backed up by: someone I know that works there.

Sand

Preaching to the converted with me Samson:)- I was just being sarcastic, the way the Judean Peoples Front goes on youd think they were putting in gas chambers beside the dormitories.

We have a shortage of labour and a lack of willingness on Irish people's part to take on certain jobs.

Then theyre economic migrants and should be processed as such. If they enter illegally and/or make failed asylum claims then they should be deported.

Secondly, the Irish have been spongers off the rest of the world for generations. Seems somewhat hypocritical to build up barriers to our own economy.

I, and anyone remaining in the country, did not emigrate. We dont owe anybody anything in that regard. As for the Irish being spongers youd have to remember that there wasnt much of a social welfare system to sponge off.

Boston

Originally posted by Clain
Afraid I disagree. We have a shortage of labour and a lack of willingness on Irish people's part to take on certain jobs.

Secondly, the Irish have been spongers off the rest of the world for generations. Seems somewhat hypocritical to build up barriers to our own economy.

Thirdly, the immigration procedure has raised concerns - why is it handled by the dept of justice and not the dept of affairs? Is it absolutely necessary to make people queue outside the office all day long? Are the terms of reference for aslyum really realistic? etc.

So, there's my view, for what its worth.

we no longer have a lobour shortage to the low an minimun wadge level which these people could fill

irishguy

I agree with most of the above. They should be put in secured housing exclusively for refugees, because the ones who are illigimate have a tendency to go missing when refused asylum. It is sad for the legit ones but that’s the truth. Waiting times should be cut down to 1 to 2 months. If during that period they have children and do not get asylum both parent and child should be deported. If they get married during this period and only get asylum because of this marriage and later get divorced they should have to re apply for citizanship/asilum.They should be given light work [in there area of vocation]to pay for there housing, food ect while they are waiting for there application to be processed. If they commit a serious offence they should be deported straight after a trial if found guilty and they should be deported if they repeatly commit minor offences. If they are granted asylum they should be placed on a waiting list for housing with other Irish citizens. They should be given the full advantage of the Irish education system and encouraged to develop there education. There application should be reviewed every 3 years if they get asylum and if there country of origin is deemed to be safe to return to they should be deported but also given the option of applying for citizenship.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Shinji

Secondly, the Irish have been spongers off the rest of the world for generations. Seems somewhat hypocritical to build up barriers to our own economy.

Don't talk such insulting crap, please.

The Irish have emigrated in droves, yes. Irish people - your kinsmen, my kinsmen - went abroad to other nations to make lives for themselves, escaping bloody awful conditions at home for the most part.

But here's a thing; they went abroad, for the most part, to work. The Irish built huge chunks of America, and most of Australia. Without those emigrants those powerful nations wouldn't exist. Vast swathes of Britain as we know it today were built with Irish labour.

I don't know which part of going abroad to build a new nation or do back-breaking work in order to make a life for yourself counts as "sponging off the rest of the world".

Do you honestly think that the Irish would have the level of respect and liking afforded to them around the world that we do now, if we had exported millions of "spongers"?

It has little bearing on the debate at hand, but I don't think that a crude and insulting generalisation like that can be allowed to pass unchecked.

Lemming

Originally posted by Clain
Shinji, take a very deep breath and remember that debate isn't personal. If you can't extend the volcabury beyond four letter words very little will be resolved.

Clain, excuse me for saying this .. but ... "shut up"

Firstly .. you make a brutally inaccurate and sensationalist generalisation (which is utter crap by the way).

Not to mention it is exceptionally insulting.

And then when Shinji points out that your statement is totally out there, you take a "holier than thou" attitude with him?? PLEASE!!!

[edit]excuse the rather strong language I used in there .. but I am SOOOO sick of that generalisation and the fact that its total BS doesn't help matters either

Shinji

Shinji, take a very deep breath and remember that debate isn't personal. If you can't extend the volcabury beyond four letter words very little will be resolved.

Now hold on a minute. You said something which was patently untrue and highly insulting, and I called it crap. I fail to see which element of this was personal; my post attacked your attitude and your comments, not your person. If you can't make the distinction, I suggest that you don't point fingers.

What IS personal is this: you then decided to adopt an utterly ludicrous holier-than-thou attitude which failed to address ANYTHING which was raised in my post, instead childishly whinging about my language. Unless you find the word "crap" REALLY offensive for some reason, I'd submit that you were trying to get out of answering through use of a glib throwaway, since that's a hell of a lot easier than stringing together a reasoned response, eh?


Regarding your later posting; your proposal that Irish emigrants' success depended on the economic systems of the nations they moved to is all very well, until you realise that at the times of greatest emigration from Ireland, those nations had no support mechanisms for the poor, and in the case of Australia and the USA, had nothing whatsoever - the emigrants who landed on the shores had to effectively build nations from scratch.

Certainly, this was economic migration, but of a very different sort. These new countries had massive labour deficits, and people went there to work and to fill the wide open spaces with humanity. Ireland of today has no labour deficit; there is nothing to build and no open space to fill. What there IS is a very generous welfare system and an economy percieved by some of the outside world as "rich".

I wonder, if the Irish economy fell apart overnight, how many immigrants would hang about?

bonkey

Originally posted by Xterminator
Anyone guilty of entering illegally, should be deported as a result of their criminal actions.

This is the only part I have a major objection to. I think a "blanket" approach like this is vastly unfair, for one very simple reason. We are ignoring the reasons *why* they entered the country this way, and we are also assuming that these people who are coming to us for genuine help are, in all probability, not familiar with the finer details of Irish Law.

Now, note that I am not talking about economic migrants. I am talking about genuine refugee cases. The determination of whom falls into which category is a seperate issue. However, once someone has been determined to be a refugee, you are argiung that "sorry m8 - we know you're a genuine refugee case, but you entered illegally so we're sending you back home" is an acceptable approach.

Whats next? The Pakistani's will be legitimised in kicking the hundreds of thousands of Afghani refugees out of their nation because they crossed the border illegally?

I know you are mostly talking about economic migrants, and I agree that our system is far too open for abuse from them, but I cannot agree that the way to deal with the economic migrants here to sponge off us is to enforce draconian laws which would equally apply to refugees.

Of course, you may not have meant that they should apply to genuine refugee cases, and I misunderstood the word "anyone".

jc

scipio_major

Spongers was a throwaway term, so I'll clarify. No amount of effort would have created the same standard of living for emmigrants who found themselves in the US or UK. Their success depended at least to some extent on the economic system they lived in, so there was at least that level of support behind them.

So your saying we should find some slums to house these emigrants. The Irish in America got absolutely nothing from anybody. They spent two or three generations in inner-city slums and tenements before the first started moving out to the suburbs. The defining factor for that was probabally the Irish viewpoint on education, we're educational fanatics. As far as I know no-one has any problem with giving the children of emigrants full access to our schools. Irish emigrants who went to the UK recieved the same if not worse treatment as the American bound. I was watching "True Lives" or was it "The Irish Empire" on RTE a while back and the thing that sticks out in my mind is signs of "No Blacks, Irish or Scots" outside boarding houses in Liverpool in the 1940s.

Oh yeah and I don't consider spongers to be a throwaway term. It is quite well defined and I'd say you used generally for it's shock/inflamitory value.

Fade to Credits
Scipio_major

Xterminator

Originally posted by bonkey


This is the only part I have a major objection to. I think a "blanket" approach like this is vastly unfair, for one very simple reason. We are ignoring the reasons *why* they entered the country this way, and we are also assuming that these people who are coming to us for genuine help are, in all probability, not familiar with the finer details of Irish Law.

jc

To clarify, i meant everybody, refugees and economic migrants included.

I understand that these people (the genuine few) are fleeing for their lives, or at very least their freedom.
But to prevent the human traffic smuggling from continuing we have to address the cause of it.

No demand = no supply

If you dont present yourself at the point of entry, you break our laws. If you break our laws youre out.
Thats not a fine point of law, and doesnt require much understanding.

You see the real refugee should have no fear of this law. Only the false one. As mentioned above by someone, a lot of these 'refugees' pass through France, UK and Germany etc. Now if they are genuinely just looking for asylum, why dont the ask for it at the first safe haven? God knows if your fleeing for your life, thats what youd do. First safe place. Not second third or fourth?

We can and have agred to take our share of refugees eg bosina Boatpeople etc, and as a nation should contine to do so.

But i belive that we need to protect ourselves and our limited resources so that we can afford to give safe haven to thoses in real need.

Finally we didnt have this problem, before the Celtic Tiger, cause we weren't the most attractive target for the 'spongers'.

X