Cults, Religions & governments

bonkey

So,

there I was browsing imdb's news, when I came across a tidbit which made me stop n think a bit :

Actor Tom Cruise took time out of promoting Vanilla Sky in Europe to lobby an American ambassador to fight for recognition of Scientology in Germany. Tom has followed the controversial religion since 1990 and even claimed it cured him of his dyslexia. He met Dan Coats, a former US senator in the German capital city Berlin last week to put across an appeal for helping the organization's status in Germany. The European country refuses to recognize Scientology as a church, saying it masquerades as a religion to make money and bars members from government jobs

This made me stop n think. We, the western nations, criticise heavily many eastern nations (China, much of the Middle East) due to their government-sanctioned intolerance to various religions (or any religions in some cases).

And yet, here we have what is probably the largest European nation (economically speaking) deciding that what many consider to be a religion is just a cult. Not only that, but its cult status effectively makes its members pariahs in society. No government jobs. Companies with connections to ye olde Scientology also face problems - anyone remember the threat of an injunction about selling Windows something-or-other cause it contained third-party software written by a company who had ties to the L.Ron.Hubbard appreciation religion.

Anyway, whatever about my opinion of Scientology itself, is this not a form of religious persecution, taking place in the heartland of Euroope? Why are our eyes so willing to ignore issues like this, and yet criticise the ME and E nations for having similar policies???

Does a government have the right to decide what is a cult and what is a religion, especially when the determination of such a classification effectively decides if the belief in question is to be discriminated against.

Just a thought...

jc

p.s. Guess this means I'm anti-German as well as anti-American. I wonder how many countries I can chalk up in the next week.

Xterminator

If you look a the subject, the 'experts' cannot even agree what a cult is.
By most definitions of a cult, the catholic church would fit right in there as a cult. Are they a cult? Ever met members of the Legion of Mary, etc? They would fit the classic cult definition!

I knew a young lad who joined a 'cult' type christain religion, where they got him to leave his parents house, and got him to live with them in a 'commune' enviornment. They told him how going out with his friends was exposing him to 'evil temptation' and tried to dis-associate him from them also.
Finally his girlfried was not a cult member, and they tried to get him to ditch her (or convert her) for a girlfriend who was a member.
This caused him to leave, and after a while he was glad he got out, and understood he had a narrowe escape.

There is no doubt that there are dangerous cults, but there is no clear line where you can say ... this is the divide between a cult and a religion.

The Scientologists are a good example of a group of people who have been labelled 'cult'.

Also another group would be the 'Mormons'.

There are ex-member who have had bad experiences who tell there stories as proof. But i know plenty of people who have had a bad experience with Catholicism, and Protestantism. Does that make these cults too?


Link to person who has published a bad experience of the scientologists.

Meh

Originally posted by bonkey
And yet, here we have what is probably the largest European nation (economically speaking) deciding that what many consider to be a religion is just a cult. Not only that, but its cult status effectively makes its members pariahs in society. No government jobs.

"Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion"
--L. Ron Hubbard, founder of Scientology.

http://www.clambake.org. Read it.
Scientology is a cult, by any reasonable definition of the word. I think this is a good decision by the German government -- at least they have the guts to stand up to the scientology cultists who hide behind "freedom of religion".

Evil Phil

Germany persecuting people because of their religion? That could never happen












* Sarcasm device, WhiteWashMan, etc.

andell

If Scientology isn't a cult, why do they have to lure people from the street with "personallity tests" etc.

~Then again I sometimes get "The God Squad" inviting me to cosy meetings.

I think all these things have in common is that they prey on lonely / sad / impressionable / vunerable people who long for any type of contact for the sense of belonging.........

but its too heavy a question to tackle at 5.45 on a monday.... food for thought.

bonkey

Originally posted by andell
If Scientology isn't a cult, why do they have to lure people from the street with "personallity tests" etc.

~Then again I sometimes get "The God Squad" inviting me to cosy meetings.

The thing to remember here is that we judge the Scientology "recruitment" based on our experience. In the US, there are several Christian religions which actively recruit - the classical "house to house" which we see on tv, or which the Krishna's over here used to do (havent seen it in an age).

I dont think the recruitment issue makes them a cult.

Now - dont get me wrong. I dont support LRH's new order, but I also do not support a government classifying specific belief systems as "cults" and discriminating against them on that basis.

Again - its always a case that no-one seems to complain when its an easy target, and yet complains massively when its a bit tougher.

In China, only one religion is legal. We see this as a travesty - that religion is illegal. If it was religious discrimination, as in the North of Ireland over much of my lifetime), we still dont agree with it. However, when its religious discrimination against a religion which we happen to dislike, all is fair. This is a bit double standardish for me.

As a matter of interest, does anyone know if the government in Germany has discriminated against all cults, or just specific ones?

And I still have no idea what the difference between a cult and a religion is

jc

andell

what ironic initals you have.

Anyway - I'm going to look up the oxford english dictionary and see what they say on the definitions of cults and religion, as I can't think of definate paramateres either.

back in a few minutes.....

andell

Right - check this out (according to Collins English Dictonary i.e. pretty standard)

Cult = n 1. specific system of worship 2. sect devoted to the beliefsof a cult (v. helpful eh?) 3. devotion to a person, idea or activity 4. popular fashion.

Religion = n system of belief in and worship of a supernatural power or god. Religious = adj 1 of religion 2 pious or devout 3 scrupulous or conscientious

So, I'm glad we cleared that one up then..........

Saruman

Collin is a muppet!
I personally would classify a cult as a belief based organisation which in order to be and stay a member you MUST provide money and follow their rules to the letter. Usually if someone gets that far they will be so mindset to stay a part of it that no matter how adhoc the rules and so on get they have to follow them as they have to stay a part of the religion.

A true religion is different, there are usually rules which can be broken like the 10 commandments for instance, every person alive including "those of the faith" as it were break at least one if not more every day of their lives.. they are not ousted from the religion. Also a true church does not demand money, their are donations and voluntary collections where you give a little when you go to service and so on but no obligation and not set ammount and your financial status is your own business entirely!

Firstly i do not actually believe in God, at least not any more and not in my mind.. maybe deep down somewhere...

Take Andells "God Squad" i assume she is referring to Evangalists or Born again Christians going door to door or handing out leaflets.. these while they SEEM like cults are perfectly innocent. They simply believe what they believe.. fact is what they believe is EXACTLY what is in the Bible and not a Religious groups interpretation like Catholic or Protestant... go to church, do confesstion whatever and you get to heaven if you try and be good and so on.. they believe what the bible says mainly in the Gospel of John chapter 3 where Jesus tells Nicodemus about how to get to heaven and how the only way is to be born again spiritually etc and goes on to get to the infamous John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes shall not perish but have everlasting life"
Anyway this is all they explain and thats it they leave you to think about it and there is no real pressure.. they push it on you a little and then thats it.. no personality tests etc.. they are simply as they put it "spreading the goof news" that Jesus rose from the dead etc etc..

A lot to read and take in but these are my views.. by the way im not speaking my oppinion of matters i have no experience with.. I once was a born again Christian but i NEVER classified myself as part of any Religion per say.. i was simply of the belief that... so on. A Religion at the end of the day is a club based on a belief, you can be born into it.. since you cant be BORN a born again Christian.. its a personal decision by an individual to ask Jesus into their hearts etc.. anyway you are not on by birth and so i never saw myself as being part of a religion other than Christianity of course!

Ill stop here and no doubt replies will follow.. have phun

andell

Saruman

Some really valid points in there - however one thing about those who believe totally in the bilbe......

there is usually one person or a small group of people guiding the interpretions of what is meant in some of the passages. Also, some of the stories are parables and not meant to be taken literally.

My main point is that for almost everyting you can quote from the bible to justify behaviour (I.e. an eye for an eye etc), there is also another passage that can be used to contradict it . Example "the Lord will forgive all sinners", and then things such as being gay etc are seen as an abomination......

It's just the people who stick to the bible 100% have alot of "get out clauses"...........

Saruman

Andell i could not agree more.. one of the many reasons i cant believe it any more! I once did but as i got a little older there were too many questions and Science points away from it.. i mean there may be a God but Christianity is probably not true.. Jesus did exist, that cant be refuted as there are records of him.. hell even Islam believes in him, he is all over the Koran as a prophet and mentioned almsot as much as Muhamad himself!

But yeah too many interpretations and not enough evidence or even well anything remotely solid to lay a belief on. Anyway if you like to read and have read Raymond e Feist, the fantast writer he had an interseting concept in one of his books..

The universe is alive.. Its a being that would be considered GOD by all accounts and the creator of us all.. and going further that its also very young! Our universe (or theirs since its a different world.. fantasy and all that) is like a baby, we its creations or toys that it uses to learn just a like a baby plays with toys to help it learn... so on.. off that wall but just as plausable as any religion.. are we getting off track here?? maybe... but to get back on track i would classify Scientology as a cult as it falls into what i initially classify as a cult..

eek getting long here so im shutting up..

andell

Saru

We've just been kicked off the mars bar thread so I'm moving here for the moment. Gosh - aren't they strict here!!!


Back to the subject before we get slap on wrist........

as Bonkey said, recruitment doesn't make it a cult - the christian missionaries went and are still going all over the world trying to convert people. what I object to is the superior attitude of these missionaries who try and "tame the natives" and again, go to "help" 3rd world people in return for a nice bit of brain washing and baptism.

I think somehting we can all agree on is its a cult when

A) it demands money,

restricts daily life

C) controls outside relationships with those not of the same belief.

anyone else got any other points?

bonkey

Originally posted by andell

I think somehting we can all agree on is its a cult when

A) it demands money,

restricts daily life

C) controls outside relationships with those not of the same belief.

anyone else got any other points?

OK..

by that account, Catholicism is a cult in many countries.

In Switzerland, for example, it is mandatory *by law* to pay certain taxes to your church. Thus, as a nominal Catholic (I was christened, and never officially got the church to "decatholicise" me) I pay tazes to the Catholic church. Furthermore, you will also find that the Catholic religion (and many others) does have a clause (mostly unenforced) about how much money you are supposed to donate to the religion.

Restrictions on daily life - good Friday is supposed to be a day of fast. Not abiding by it is seen as a sin. Not going to mass on a Sunday is seen as a sin, unless there are certain mitigating circumstances.

Controls relationships with those outside the religion - for a Catholic to marry a non-catholic requires permission from Rome.

And as for the Collins definitions : Cult is a specific system of worship. Gosh - that applies to Catholicism as well. Its a specific "implementation" of Christianity.

AS for Saruman's definition of cults : there are several cults which do not require money, and I would also point out that there is no belief system where you *must* follow the rules to the letter. IN all belief systems, there are rules. You break them, you are guilty of sin, and must do some form of repentance.

So....back to square one. No-one has provided anything credible which clearly seperates religion from cult. Please note, I am not asking for why Scientology is not a religion - I am asking how to distinguish between cult and religion, and whether or not it is just to discriminate between people based on their membership of either cults or religions.

As for a discussion on the nature of God, or the universe....take it to Humanities guys, it has nothing to do with Politics.

jc

Saruman

Sorry bonkey that just sort of came out.. i figured it was more for humanities but then again did not care enough to create one.. i only started on about it as a reference and it got out of hand.. hehe oops.. anyway..

No we should not discriminate people on their religion, absolutly not! If your asking what defines a religion thats a fu*&%d up answer.. For instance you may have heard that in a recent census in the UK a certain percentage of the population put their religion down as "Jedi Knight" probably for the laugh or because Chewbacca is such a God like being.. i dont know why but fact is enough people put that down so that it is OFFICIALLY classed as a religion in the UK.. even though i dont think it exists or there is any meetings other than at sci-fi conventions and weekend long Star trek watching! Yet this is only in the UK... if they went to Germany for instance (since its mentioned in this topic and for no other reason) then would they be discriminated against because of that? More so would it be right if they were?? With the excpetion of maybe being called absolute spanners.. well no.. maybe i will do something like it next census (if we have that religion option).

seamus

The only thing I can see which makes people see a difference between religion and cult is the whole brainwashing issue. I know very little about most religions, and even less about cults. I'm pretty sure most people on the boards are the same. All we have to go on is the stereotype we are given, like the Simpsons. They take all of your money, oppress you, and punish you for slightly breaking the rules according to TV. And many people have claimed that scientology is like that. Anyone got any proof? Is anyone here in a position to decide what is a religion and what is a cult? Seriously? As bonkey said above, all of the qualifiers of cults are easily applied to religions and vice-versa. I have heard 'stories' of people being thrown out of that scientology place in Dublin, because they said they were a student or they were unemployed, but that's the kind of thing that either gets entirely fabricated or heavily diluted. I am a former Catholic, and I would be highly interested to go in 'just to see', because I'm intrigued as to how anyone gets sucked in by propaganda, if it exists, or at least how they would try to get their point across (I'm very sceptical when it comes to religion).:)

Btw: bonkey - that tax in Switzerland - how does it apply? What if someone has no formal religion? Are they exempt?

Saruman

Id say Athiests have it good in Switzerland!

Actually that sounds seriously nuts that tax. No wonder the catholic church can afford to give what 23billion in compensation for abuse victims!

Anyway yeah i think the modern definition of a cult in most countries is anything thats is not an OLD religion.. no newbies allowed.. Christianity is 2000 years old, though the idea is older... Islam is 500 years older again but you pop in say lets start a religion to make money and gain tax relief... then you are a cult.. same definition of a religion.. may even be a real faith with no strings attached but its new and so not a RELIGION!

Saruman

I am incapable of staying on topic.

While I remain incapable of staying on topic, I expect to have my posts edited by Administrators. Then deleted.

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by seamus
They take all of your money, oppress you, and punish you for slightly breaking the rules according to TV. And many people have claimed that scientology is like that. Anyone got any proof?

OK - you are talking about television stereotypes there.

My GF worked for a few years in a shop which was owned and run by Scientologists. IIRC, the boss was at least OT4, which (if you know about the Scientology structure) is reasonably high up.

What the media portrays is often exaggerated, but even still, there is some grain of truth behind it. The structure appears to be based around the formalisation of "peons" (my term) working for "overlords" (again, my term), which isnt that far removed from medievel christianity, when you think about it

In effect, I think this structure is the problem the Germans have. Essentially, the obedience is so in-grained, that its not like telling a catholic that they must obey the pope when he says something is evil. Its more like telling a fundamentalist Muslim that they should obey their Mullah when he tells them something is evil.

As a result, you have a structure where members are almost certainly untrustworthy in certain positions, as they will always allow their allegience to their belief have influence, especially if instructed to do so by their "superiors".

Now, when put like this, you can see the German's logic. However, the problem is that this problem is *not* because of the fact that Scientology is a cult, unless you want to class Wahabbiism and countless other forms of religious fundamentalist sects as cults as well.

This is a tough call. On one hand, there are solid reasons why these people should be kept out of government. However, using "theyre a cult" as the reason is both unfair and misleading, but that is what I understand has been done. It also does not explain in any way why the Germans would want to ban Windows because it contained an application which was written by a company who's MD was a high-level Scientologist, and who had ties with scientology.

This is where my unease comes in. I think the valid precautions are misclassified, and paranoid steps are being taken on the back of the valid precautions. No-one has a problem with this, because, hey, its not a cause we want to fight for.

I just found it strange that this is, in effect, religious persecution, which so many of us would cry out about when it involves the "classical" religions. When we say "freedom of religion", do we not, therefore, mean "freedom to choose one of a select few religions that we approve of, and screw the rest".

Btw: bonkey - that tax in Switzerland - how does it apply? What if someone has no formal religion? Are they exempt?

One of my friends had himself officially classified as an atheist. If you are a member of any recognised religion, you basically have to get their agreement to "release you" before the govt will declassify you.

Tax over here is weird. Its not a major issue, but if people are interested, I'll dig up the full skinny on it and post a new thread on the subject.

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by Saruman
Anyway yeah i think the modern definition of a cult in most countries is anything thats is not an OLD religion.. no newbies allowed.. Christianity is 2000 years old, though the idea is older...

A lot of ostensibly christian "fringe religions" are, therefore, cults ???

Its not even the god you believe in, but rather the structure into which that belief has been incorporated which seems to be the issue.

jc

andell

I don't think i am well enough informed on this topic to be of any real input....so I'll see you guys around

Saruman

Good man bonkey, knew i could rely on you to edit my off topic reply.. think i even said it would be deleted by some moderator!

I wonder will there ever be an agreement on the definition of cult and religion? Dobt it.. too fine a line! Cant be arsed with it any more.

What do you mean by fringe religion? im talking about anything new that just appears suddenly...

one thought... the group the Chinese likegoing after.. they say its a cult but seems more like a bunch of yoga type people... i dont know much about them but anyway..

Could you define Feng Shui as a cult? What about closer to home.. CYTI!! Some of the characteristics of a cult mentioned here could be said for both of these though i would not classify either a cult..