Euro + cent... the words!

Gordon

OK, this is bugging me. Sorry if this has been posted before, I'll erase it if so.

1 Euro
2 Euro (?)

1 Cent
2 Cent (?)

What is the plural of these words Euro and Cent??

seamus

Officially there is no plural. It's 1 euro and 25 euro, 1 cent and 25 cent. No 's'. I think it has something to do with the french. Their plurals contain a silent 's', so the french would say 'un(e) cent', with 'cent' pronounced 'sawnt' and 'trois cents' with 'cents' pronounced 'sawnt', not 'sawnts' so if we go over to france, it would be correct in us saying 25 cent instead of 25 cents. Confused? me too. I already say cents and euros, and I have no intention saying it differently

Yoda

Seamus said:
Officially there is no plural. It's 1 euro and 25 euro, 1 cent and 25 cent. No 's'.

This is not really true. A terrible mistake has been made by the Irish government in misinterpreting the intent of a 1997 European Council Directive, which was intended to ensure that everyone called the currency "euro" and "cent", and that only one form would be put on the coins and currency, and that no country could opt out and call it the "ducat" or "dollar" or anything. This did not mean that the grammar of natural languages was to be impinged upon.

So it is not true that the official plural is s-less. It is the case that a certain amount of legislation has no plural, and it is also the case that McCreevy believes that the words are not supposed to have plurals, and it is -- a sociolinguistic disaster -- certainly the case that the media, both news and advertising, is beaming bad grammar into our homes. But the Translation Service of the European Commission recommends that the pluralless form only be used when citing specific legislation which uses it, and that in all other cases, the natural plurals "euros" and "cents" should be used.

Indeed, when the document came out saying that plurals were meant to be invariable, Finland, Spain, Portugal, and France refused it. The Greeks choose to say "lepto" pl. "lepta" instead of "cent". The UK and Austria complained that "25 euro" was incorrect, but because Ireland and Germany did not complain about it, the "rule" became set -- for European and Irish legislation.

Seamus also said:
I already say cents and euros, and I have no intention saying it differently

Please do. Please phone the media and complain. Please tell your friends and colleagues, and people in shops that we do have "permission" to say euros and cents.

I am trying to campaign about this, having been involved with getting the euro sign into fonts and HTML and Unicode, and being concerned about the bad grammar my Television Licence is paying for. I was on Ian Dempsey last Friday morning, and am preparing -- because I do not know what else to do -- an open letter to the Minister for Finance which I intend to send to the media, including to the presenters themselves.

In the meantime you can look at my site http://www.evertype.com/standards/euro/ to see what materials I have already made available. I would very much like to get advice from this forum if people are interested.

By the way, the correct Irish forms are "eoró" and "ceint".

DadaKopf

Good on ya, Yoda. This mispronnunciation is really getting to me. It sounds frivolous, but I think this 'Euro' and 'cent' thing is going to catch on due to the fact that Uncle Gaybo says it that way on Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?

There's no question in French about the 's' not being on the end, it's simply that they don't pronnounce it. Germans say "oy-ro" - so what? It's the responsibility of every european to get used to these linguistic differences.

I, for one, could have entertained the notion of 'Euro' being a singular collective noun but certainly not cents. The whole point of the Eu is to standardise on one hand and to allow for differences on the other; I opt for linguistic difference. So what if the French don't pronnounce their 'S'? That's just something we're going to have to get used to and we shouldn't compromise the rules of our linguistic system.

Keep us posted about how your campaign gets on, will you, Yoda?

Yoda

DadaKopf said:
Good on ya, Yoda. This mispronnunciation is really getting to me. It sounds frivolous, but I think this 'Euro' and 'cent' thing is going to catch on due to the fact that Uncle Gaybo says it that way on Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?

He's just following RTÉ policy. The worst thing is the television advertising which is saying to us over andd over and over again this s-less plural, getting people to think that it is the right thing to do.

There's no question in French about the 's' not being on the end, it's simply that they don't pronnounce it. Germans say "oy-ro" - so what?

The French, Spanish, and Portuguese write "euros", and in general they are writing "centime", "céntimo", and "cêntimo" (pluralizing them where necessary). Whether the French pronounce it is irrelevant -- the plural is "les euros" (actually it's the "les" that tells your ear that it's plural). The Germans, as it happens, have a great many words in their language which do not take plurals (1 Mark, 2 Mark). In the English language, this is preposterous except for ancient neuters like "sheep" which lost their plural centuries ago.

I, for one, could have entertained the notion of 'Euro' being a singular collective noun but certainly not cents.

Collective singulars are like "rice". Currencies in English are not like that, except for slang! By the way, it is incorrect to capitalize "euro" just as it is incorrect to capitalize "dollar" or "pound" -- except at the beginning of a sentence of course.

Keep us posted about how your campaign gets on, will you, Yoda?

I will, but as far as I know I am a voice crying in the wilderness. PLEASE write letters to the Times and ring RTÉ to complain. I can't do it alone. And the longer the TV gives us bad grammar the harder it will be to kill this mental virus.

Victor

Yes lets have 12 different sets of words describing the same thing. It is meant to be an international currency, so can we please have it understandable no matter what language you speak.

Yoda

Victor said:
Yes lets have 12 different sets of words describing the same thing. It is meant to be an international currency, so can we please have it understandable no matter what language you speak.

What is your point? The morpheme "euro" is pronounced in English, in German, in French, in Italian and Spanish, and in Greek and Swedish. It takes natural plurals in -s in English, French, Spanish, and Portuguese. It takes natural plurals with no ending in Swedish and German.

The point here is that the natural plural in -s is not only acceptable, but recommended by the Commission, but unfortunately the Irish government has got it wrong and the media has followed suit, and this is sociolinguistically dangerous, if not just plain nasty.

DadaKopf

Keep me posted but be a little less pedantic .

DadaKopf

And another thing: if this name Euro and cent is supposed to be applicable to all EU languages and legally they must be abided by, then WHY is the Irish translation 'Eoro'? Eh?

Gordon

I totally forgot that I posted this thread only to come back a few weeks later to complete madness!

OK, then surely we can call it Euros and cents if we like, I see no real need to drop the s for everybodys sake... surely.

But really I think Yoda should start a revolution to call the Euro "Quid".

Yoda

Originally posted by DadaKopf
And another thing: if this name Euro and cent is supposed to be applicable to all EU languages and legally they must be abided by, then WHY is the Irish translation 'Eoro'? Eh?

That's where you're wrong, just as McCreevy is wrong, and the media are wrong. The name isn't supposed to be applicable to all the EU languages. The Commission has no authority to mandate anything regarding to natural language planning, although Ireland has really got it wrong this time for a lot of reasons I am working on writing up.

There was once a fear that differing forms would cause legal trouble, so they thought the words would be invariable. Right round the table hands went up for countries refusing to accept this and wanting to take a derogation from the Regulation. So Portugal, Spain and France use the plural "euros" and use, "cêntimo", "céntimo" and "centime" respectively. Finland applies grammatical endings to "euro": "euroa", "eorot", and uses the form "sentti", "sentiä". Greece uses its own alphabet and says "leptó" pl. "leptá" for the cent.

Why did we not insist on our right to use the natural plurals "euros" and "cents" in English? Because somebody dropped the ball. It doesn't matter who -- we just need to get the media to STOP pumping bad grammar into our homes with every news report and every advert.

And don't tell me that "cent" is plural in the European currency and "cents" the plural in Australia, Canada, the US, Hong Kong, and so on. I have already heard at least one RTÉ presenter read off the exchange rate for the euro as "one dollar and fifteen cent". That's intolerable.

The European Commission's Translation Service recognizes that there is existing legislation which uses the s-less plural, and says that when translating or quoting that legislation, one should cite it exactly as it appears. They say that in all other contexts, especiallywhen dealing with the public, the natural plural in "s" should be used.

I'm going to send my open letter out to about 100 people, presenters, press officers, and so on. I'm scared though that I won't be heard, or that McCreevy will say that it's not a problem. But it is, sociolinguistically. How many times have you heard people dispute over which is the correct plural? How many times have you heard someone say "Oh, we're supposed to say 'euro and cent'"? Supposed? Says who?

Spread the word. Please.

Yoda

Gordon said
OK, then surely we can call it Euros and cents if we like, I see no real need to drop the s for everybodys sake... surely.

Yes, we can, but the problem

But really I think Yoda should start a revolution to call the Euro "Quid".

And we may, in time. But Ireland saying "euro and cent" while the US and Britain say "euros and cents" makes us look ridiculous.

(By the way it's incorrect to spell currency names with capital letters in English. Sorry, it's my typesetter nature showing. That's another good recommendation of the Translation Service, by the way.)

Actually a friend of mine suggest we call the euro "quo".

Clinical Waste

I totally agree.
"cent" is the stupidest word ever, (except maybe pergola or Gobnet), but whatever.
Saying cent is very wrong and will only lead to ridicule & shame.

I don't know enough of the legislation with regard to Euro, but reading Yoda's exhaustive comments and the link to his site, I have to agree with him.

I have already started forwarding the link to people.

Gordon

"Actually a friend of mine suggest we call the euro "quo"."
Nah that would sound silly,
"That'll be two quo Mrs Jibberman"
"Ah sure just give us ten quo"
sounds too short and curly
quid pro quo.

I think if you go along that line it should at least be quod or maybe have a lateral think and go quodge.

"How much for your potted skunk Mr Prenderbrag?"
"Ooh Arr that be urr... 15 quodge and a sack of blue Ms Tunnyboom"

Yes, much better

Yoda

Originally posted by Clinical Waste
I totally agree.
"cent" is the stupidest word ever, (except maybe pergola or Gobnet), but whatever.
Saying cent is very wrong and will only lead to ridicule & shame.

I don't know enough of the legislation with regard to Euro, but reading Yoda's exhaustive comments and the link to his site, I have to agree with him.

I have already started forwarding the link to people.

Thank you very much. It makes me feel less alone in my campaign. Write to RTÉ and complain. Write to TV3 and complain. Write to your TD and complain.

I hope to have my letter finished and sent by the end of next week. The text of it will also be on my web site http://www.evertype.com/standards/euro and I hope that you and other people will also do a little work and send some letters or e-mails out.

Yoda

Originally posted by DadaKopf
... then WHY is the Irish translation 'Eoro'? Eh?

Forgot to respond to that part.

Because "euro" violates the spelling rules of Irish. It has a long vowel at the end, but you have to mark that "ó", and "eu" by itself is an old spelling for what is now "éa" (reul > réal 'sixpence") and the point is that it's supposed to be a truncation of the name of the continent, .i. an Eoraip. Now it would have been possible to truncate to "eora" but the strength of the English word leads one to figure that "eoró" is the better choice.

The Welsh, by the way, are writing "ewro".

See my article in English at http://www.evertype.com/standards/euro/euro-eora-en.pdf or in Irish at http://www.evertype.com/standards/euro/euro-eora-en.pdf for more details.