Irish Government. Hypocrites? Nah!

seamus

Just something I noticed - The other day, an opinion poll was released which showed that 39% of people would vote yes in an upcoming referendum on abortion, 34% would vote no, and everyone else was undecided. Yet the tainiste(I think) was claiming the referendum should be abandoned because they didn't have a large enough majority yes vote to assure victory for the Government. This brought a few questions to me - The Government says they call a referendum to try get abortion approved by the public, yet what happened in the previous 2 referenda? The Government lost - but they must have known people would vote 'no' by conducting opinion polls, so why didn't they abandon the referenda then? Why only try to abandon it now, when they finally have a majority yes?

It just seems to me like they (or someone anyway) are trying to keep both the 'yes' and 'no' camps happy. Keeping the yes camps happy by having the referendum, but safe in the knowledge that the no voters will win and then be happy, and now, keeping the 'no' camps happy by delaying another referendum for a few years, and also keeping the 'yes' camps happy by saying, 'You will win the next referendum, just wait for a while, until we have enough votes to ensure a win this time...'.

Just an observation...Anyone any opinions? Or correction? Maybe the Government were in favour of a 'no' vote for the last 2 referenda, I don't know I was only a nipper

(Oh btw, please don't turn this into a debate on abortion...cos no-one will win that one )

Sand

I pity the government on this one. Christ I wouldnt even wish a problem like this onto Gerry Adams:) . As you said its a case of appearing to be all things to all voters. Theyve pulled it off sofar, but how long before it becomes an election issue should one or other side get some balls and come down on one side or the other?

Ri-ra

Originally posted by Sand
Theyve pulled it off sofar, but how long before it becomes an election issue should one or other side get some balls and come down on one side or the other?

That's the funniest thing I read here in a while. Jaysus.:rolleyes:

bonkey

Originally posted by Sand
but how long before it becomes an election issue should one or other side get some balls and come down on one side or the other?

How can a constitutional change requiring a referendum become an electoral issue?

"Vote for us and we'll do our damndest to give you another chance to vote for this?"

jc

Victor

Originally posted by seamus
Just something I noticed - The other day, an opinion poll was released which showed that 39% of people would vote yes in an upcoming referendum on abortion, 34% would vote no, and everyone else was undecided. Yet the tainiste(I think) was claiming the referendum should be abandoned because they didn't have a large enough majority yes vote to assure victory for the Government. This brought a few questions to me - The Government says they call a referendum to try get abortion approved by the public, yet what happened in the previous 2 referenda? The Government lost - but they must have known people would vote 'no' by conducting opinion polls, so why didn't they abandon the referenda then? Why only try to abandon it now, when they finally have a majority yes?

I think the point the Tánaiste was making was that there wasn't a big enough majority in the opinion poll. While there hasn't been much campaigning either way, no government (in any country) would like to hold a referendum it is likely to lose (unless the stakes are high enough, which they rarely are).

bonkey

Originally posted by Victor
While there hasn't been much campaigning either way, no government (in any country) would like to hold a referendum it is likely to loose (unless the stakes are high enough, which they rarely are).

Not strictly true. No government is likely to ask for a referendum which they believe they will lose. However, there are cases where the government must call a referendum regardless of whether they will win or lose (Treaty of Nice being a good example).

Also, cant the populace in Ireland force a referendum by collecting a required number of signatures? In such a case, again, the govt is obliged to bring the issue before the people in a timely fashion.


jc

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
Not strictly true. No government is likely to ask for a referendum which they believe they will lose. However, there are cases where the government must call a referendum regardless of whether they will win or lose (Treaty of Nice being a good example).

Thats why I endorsed what I said.

Originally posted by bonkey
Also, cant the populace in Ireland force a referendum by collecting a required number of signatures? In such a case, again, the govt is obliged to bring the issue before the people in a timely fashion.

Not directly. However, I understand that a minority of the Oireachtas can refer a Bill to the President demanding a referendum. Sorry, we are not Switzerland

Constitiution of Ireland

Reference of Bills to the People
Article 27
This Article applies to any Bill, other than a Bill expressed to be a Bill containing a proposal for the amendment of this Constitution, which shall have been deemed, by virtue of Article 23 hereof, to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas.
1. A majority of the members of Seanad Éireann and not less than one-third of the members of Dáil Éireann may by a joint petition addressed to the President by them under this Article request the President to decline to sign and promulgate as a law any Bill to which this article applies on the ground that the Bill contains a proposal of such national importance that the will of the people thereon ought to be ascertained.

However this is effectively neutered by insisting that any nay-sayers have a majority of voters and one-third of the voters on the register

THE REFERENDUM
Article 47
1. Every proposal for an amendment of this Constitution which is submitted by Referendum to the decision of the people shall, for the purpose of Article 46 of this Constitution, be held to have been approved by the people, if, upon having been so submitted, a majority of the votes cast at such Referendum shall have been cast in favour of its enactment into law.
2. 1° Every proposal, other than a proposal to amend the Constitution, which is submitted by Referendum to the decision of the people shall be held to have been vetoed by the people if a majority of the votes cast at such Referendum shall have been cast against its enactment into law and if the votes so cast against its enactment into law shall have amounted to not less than thirty-three and one-third per cent. of the voters on the register.
2° Every proposal, other than a proposal to amend the Constitution, which is submitted by Referendum to the decision of the people shall for the purposes of Article 27 hereof be held to have been approved by the people unless vetoed by them in accordance with the provisions of the foregoing sub-section of this section.

Xterminator

Well, people can debate abortion till the cows come home.
It wont do any good.

I have never actually met someone who changed there opinion on abortion because of a debate.

Two large sections of the population have diametrically oposed views on a devicive subject. While a practical solution needs to be found, the fundameltalists will never be happy.

I heard a story (unsubstanciated) about a woman from italy, who went abroad to have an abortion, and when she returned, she was arrested and charged.

That is the kind of ireland some would like to live in.

X

Victor

Originally posted by Xterminator
I heard a story (unsubstanciated) about a woman from italy, who went abroad to have an abortion, and when she returned, she was arrested and charged.

Went abroad from Ireland or went abroad from Italy? There is a big difference in context.

Personal Rights
Article 40
3° The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

This subsection shall not limit freedom to travel between the State and another state.

seamus

Just amoi Victor, what was the story then with the previous referenda on abortion? Were they forced on the government in one of the ways you said above? Cos they would have known damn well they were gonna lose.....:)

Xterminator

To clarify that story, she was an italian resident, and left Italy for an abortion, but when she returned she was arrested and charged.

The reason i brought it up, is because there are a section who want the state to prohibit even this 'freedom'.

Realistically most are happy if we just keep exporting the problem to the UK and Russia etc.

X

bonkey

Originally posted by Victor (in reply to my question about peple forcing a referendum with enough sigs
Not directly. However, I understand that a minority of the Oireachtas can refer a Bill to the President demanding a referendum. Sorry, we are not Switzerland

For some reason I thought Irish referenda could be called by the people like here in Switzerland. My bad.

Now I'm wondering where I got it from. Maybe its the requirements for becoming a Presidential Candidate.

jc

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
Now I'm wondering where I got it from. Maybe its the requirements for becoming a Presidential Candidate.

Eh, no either a proportion of the Oireachtas or a number of County Councils, if I'm right.

Parts of the USA do have it (California being a prime example)

Victor

Originally posted by seamus
Just amoi Victor, what was the story then with the previous referenda on abortion? Were they forced on the government in one of the ways you said above? Cos they would have known damn well they were gonna lose.....:)

I don't know, but I don't think it has ever been invoked.