Peace march in Belfast on Friday was a waste of time

Biffa Bacon

Sorry but it was. Did anyone honestly think it would it achieve anything? It just shows the mentality of people in this country who think that we need more talk and less action. If you are going to march at least protest about something that you think you might be able to get changed, such as the pathetically ineffectual policing in the North.

yossarin

people marching == talk not action ?

i think that it's great. I also think that one of the things that has been keeping the situation up north going has been the lack of protest by those affected on both sides

are you just trying to start a debate ? (read: bitter flame war decending into personal scrapping )

Sand

I think its important for both communities to keep pressure on terrorists through acts of public disapproval such as the march. It wont catch the terrorists, but it may reduce their "mandate" in their own eyes and the eyes of their supporters. Having said that, their supporters are usually (non)working class communities which have a lot of problems - The opinion of these working class areas may be of more weight than the public marchers.

Biffa Bacon

But when have terrorists in Ireland ever listened to public opinion? It seems to me that people would be much better off trying to effect change in areas they have some influence in, i.e. government inaction regarding paramilitary violence.

DadaKopf

The point of marches is to make a collective, public statement. Of course it's about change but you're just stupid if you expect a march to change anything radically - that's not their point. It's about political pressure.

Sand: that's a little bit of a turnaround on your part. On another thread, you were condemning political marches as futile and a waste of time. Very interesting.

Sand

A march by students protesting against say the US bombing in afghanistan (When the protestors are in a city thousands of miles from both the US and afghanistan) , means absolutely sweet FA to either of the protagonists. The US and the fundamentalists couldnt care less if a few hundred/thousand non citizens living thousands of miles away dont like what theyre doing. Hence its futile and a waste of time.

A march by people in Belfast, regarding actions in Belfast, and attempting to put pressure on protagonists in Belfast has some merit. Youll notice that I noted that the terrorists pay more attention to the opinion of their own communities/estates- but at least it (the marches) registers with them. So I dont see the turnaround myself:)

Victor

Ah, come on Sand, you have become a big softie, haven't you?

bugler

It was an utter waste of time. What did it achieve, after all? It only forced the disbandment of the Red Hand Defenders (admittedly they can resurface easily) and forced the lifting of the threat hanging over postal workers. They should have stayed at home and accepted the fact that they are sitting ducks, easy prey for cowardly loyalist groups. Nothing was ever achieved by getting up and doing something about a situation.

The postal worker strike meant that no mail (including welfare cheques) got into working class estates, just the type of estate where the "RHD" operates from. I'd say they weren't flavour of the month in Tiger Bay et al last week.

C B

The march is unlikely to persuade any current terrorists that their actions are abhorent but it may disuade current teenagers from joining such organisations.

It is necessary to show kids in deprived areas that there are other options, marches of this kind can only be a part of that process.

Hobbes

Its basically a statement to say "We have had enough".

It's true to say that terrorist organisations may not be effected by it, but terrorist organisations only survive when they have support for the cause.

Remove the cause, you remove the support and it eventually dies.

For example the pictures of the torture in camp X-Ray will probably help the terrorists cause more in the long run.

I'm basing this on history where the UK did the same form of torture years ago, it helped the IRA get new people to join their ranks.

Sand

Yeah the scenes in that death camp in Cuba just plain sickened me. Poor, helpless men of god being being treated in such a fashion. Hitler himself could not have thought of a more evil treatment.

In Mazar E Sharif they treated their prisoners relatively well but then- oh wait , they revolted and fought a pitched battle with their guards. Hmm I wonder if thats got anything to do with the americans securing their prisoners. Hmm, no- Im sure the US is just evil.

bugler

The US need to be careful, those taliban guys can shoot lasers from their eyes, and blast fire from their ears. I know, CNN told me!

I like that sentiment Sand:

George W Bush-better than Hitler

Sand

The left have never forgiven him for beating their darling Al Gore. Last time I checked it was neck and neck between Bush and Hitler for the lefts nomination of evilest man in world history:)

Hobbes

I'm sure Gore is sitting at home, sipping brandy and thinking thank fuk I didn't get made president.

Yeah the scenes in that death camp in Cuba just plain sickened me.

I'm not what the Sarky comment was in aid of. Prehaps I should of worded the other way. When the twin towers fell down most Americans where falling over themselves to enlist.

It's the same thing only on the other side.

bugler

Gore did beat Bush. Pity the supreme court handed the presidency to the wrong man. The left supported Gore? Haha. The US presidency race became the usual popularity contest, on the basis of looks, charm and image. Nader was the choice of the "real left". Democrat voters (in many cases separated from Republicans by eh, nothing really) are quite prone to blame Nader for Bush getting within an asses roar of the White House. If Nader hadn't drawn away support (many of his voters would have voted for Gore, if only because the other guy was Bush) Gore would have won easily. I don't feel sorry for Gore, he was a prisoner to many of the influences Bush is. Plus ca change...

Victor

I thought this topic was about the North?

gandalf

Get back on topic or I will lock this thread !!!

If you want to bitch about the POWs or non-POWs open a new thread.

Gandalf.

Sand

Terrorism needs to be defeated first before public opinion can take effect on reducing its mandate. Only the slowest of learners amongst the northern terrorists still believe they can drive the british from northern ireland or turn the clock back to the good ol loyalist 1920s.

The marches in Belfast have helped remind the dissidents that despite their claims to represent such and such a community, the community itself does not agree with them - at least not to the extent they would wish. Gradually it is hoped that this public approval/disapproval will aid in tempering the dissidents and also reducing their recruitment - should they persist in sporadic terrorism in the face of mass disapproval they will only make themselves out to be common thugs and thieves- and they will find it harder to find suitably gullible fools to do their bidding. It is important to remeber such public disapproval is only effective given the assumption that terrorism has already been defeated as force.

Victor

Originally posted by Sand
The marches in Belfast have helped remind the dissidents that despite their claims to represent such and such a community, the community itself does not agree with them - at least not to the extent they would wish. Gradually it is hoped that this public approval/disapproval will aid in tempering the dissidents and also reducing their recruitment - should they persist in sporadic terrorism in the face of mass disapproval they will only make themselves out to be common thugs and thieves- and they will find it harder to find suitably gullible fools to do their bidding. It is important to remeber such public disapproval is only effective given the assumption that terrorism has already been defeated as force.

I generally agree with this. However, you also need to break the vicious circle of violence and show up the extremist propaganda for what it is. In particular the type where perceived slight "a", leads to slight "b", leads to the beating up of "c", which leads to "d" being petrol-bombed out of their house, which leads to e being shot .... and so on.

DadaKopf

By sand:
A march by students protesting against say the US bombing in afghanistan (When the protestors are in a city thousands of miles from both the US and afghanistan) , means absolutely sweet FA to either of the protagonists.

And I suppose the fact that Ireland has a place on the UN security council had nothing to do with it?

Think again, sand. You're altogether too selective in your remarks. I suggest you try to think about this a little more.

gandalf

Dadkopf if what Sand posted earlier is so important to you address it in another thread, or didn't you read what I posted earlier. If this thread strays once more off topic I will close it.

Gandalf.