Black Hawk Doooooooooown

Lex_Diamonds

Starting this BHD thread for future opinions etc, looks like its going to be a good film. I have seen alot of favourable reviews too. Anyone else interested in this?

Belisarius

It certainly looks excellent, plus knowing what we do about the incident itself theyre proabably be a fair amount of yank smacking in it , Ill go see it . It couldnt be as bad as anyway Behind Enemy lines

Fidelis

I've read the book myself. This is why the yanks didn't go into Kosovo until the Serbs pulled out altogether. They U.S. public doesn't particularly like to see it's boys being dragged along dusty streets covered in blood. I can't imagine why.

If this movie doesn't contain American moral shattering realism then I think it's fair to say that it's not sticking to the facts.

The Gopher

Id love to see this but obviously the pussys at the film censors must be watching out for age at our cinema-the local paper ad headline says "Some scenes very graphic and are unsuitable for under 18s".They only do this when som1 complains or they think som1 at the censors is putting on the heat a bit-the only 18 I was refused entry to was Scary Movie,as some parent complained about that specific film.Strangely enough they let us in to Shaft[18]the same night!

GoneShootin

i hope the wave of "real war" films keep coming, even if the facts waiver a tad, nothing like a good ol gung-ho HOOORAAA flick.

tho i doubt if i will ever see the likes of FULL METAL JACKET again, ah well.

Mark

In the ad for BHD whats the name of that song with the two repeating lyrics,sounds like herrrreeeeee adelo (sounds like it,anyway).PLEASE tell me the name of that song as its driving me crazy.

Lex_Diamonds

Heh, thats Moby -Why Does My Heart Feel So Bad?

mayhem#

Originally posted by Lex_Diamonds
Starting this BHD thread for future opinions etc, looks like its going to be a good film. I have seen alot of favourable reviews too. Anyone else interested in this?

I read the book some time ago and was just stunned by the complete arrogance in in-abilty of what is supposed to be the US special ops units. The only guys who seemed to be any bit switched on were the D-boys.
No wonder the Yanks bomb any target into the stone age before they send ground troops in....

c0y0te

I've read the book, which was quite a good read but of course the usual yankie view of life crept in.

From what I've heard (post sept. 11th).. Ridley has gone for a gung ho approach, since now America needs heros etc etc.

Pity really - I have a lot of time for him as a director, and he has produced some spectacular stuff in the past.. but I'm pretty sure this will be a big dissappointment.. since the last thing I'll be interested in is seeing everything from the AMERICA perspective, when we all know better!

The truth is always less 'sellable' in hollywood anyway:(

c0y0te

fixer

in-ability of the US special forces? what is your level of reading comprehension? 100 american special forces against 5000 somalians? It was like playing football with only a forward and a keeper and still scoring 200 goals for every 1 against in a game that lasted for 24 hours

From a friend in the US:
Firstly ,the mission was to go in and get two associates of Aidid, and hope there were others at the hotel at the same time. They got them and others, so on that stand the mission objective was achieved, no matter how many people lost their lives, the mission was a success. But they did loose 19 people and 70 something injured out of and original force of 100 that went in. The force had done something like 8 missions up till that point, everyone of them went off fine, but everyone of them were at night where those forces have a big advantage.

They had the correct intel and everything started off as planned, what they did not know was that as soon as task for ranger landed in Somalia Aidid got hold of his Al-Qaeda buddies and got a **** load of mildly better trained characters in. I know it sounds bull**** but Bin Ladens cronies were there, he has had tons of ties to Somalia in the past, bets are on that this is where he reapears.

The military did make mistakes in a few areas, with all the missions having gone so well they did take chance by going in by daylight, but they were under serious pressure to get something done. As in the movie no took NODs or enough water.

There was a cluster **** with command on the ground between the Captain of the rangers and the Sgt in charge of the Delta guys. the Delta guys were obviosly way better equiped to lead the mission once the **** hit the fan, but chain of command prevented that. Henve the delta guys going off on their own. I guess the US did take on heavy casualties, but it was definately not the US getting its ass kicked.

There are some really interesting bits left out of the movie. eg. One of the delta guys got back to base after the whole nightmare, changed into civilian clothing and walked out the gates of the base with a 9mm and a camera posing as the press to try find Durant. Some of the Delta force guys were awake and in ops in the city for over 60 hours by the end.

Victor

fixer, that isn't exactly how it is in the book ....

Lemming

Originally posted by c0y0te
I've read the book, which was quite a good read but of course the usual yankie view of life crept in.

I've yet to read the book. How long did it take to get through it?? :-/

On a slightly off-topic note, best US military-story book I've ever read was ChickenHawk. Anyone else here read that? What did ye think ?

po0k

It's been reccomended to me by the same friend who reccomended BHD.

Fixer, it was to go in and capture a few of Adid's top men.
The Rangers were shaken, the thing went off badly from the start, and i suggest you read the book yourself before spouting second hand 'facts'. FFS.

I was looking forward to the film till I read that bit about Scott making it all Gung-Ho. Wasted, and now it'll never be done right. Sh1te is not strong enough.
Where are all the films on Worldwar two from the french, german, english, Austrailian and Italian sides?
America didn't have a fight with itself.
First Casualty in War is Truth. And with that thing in Afghanistan I think it's clear how.
Can you say Propaganda war?

Victor

Originally posted by Lemming
I've yet to read the book. How long did it take to get through it??

24 hours over a 36 hour period - you just can't put it down.

Originally posted by Lemming
On a slightly off-topic note, best US military-story book I've ever read was ChickenHawk. Anyone else here read that? What did ye think ?

Vietnam War books wreck your head. BHD as a book is much less FUBARed in that sense, but at the same time the events are FUBARed in BHD.

po0k

Originally posted by Mark1million
sounds like herrrreeeeee adelo (sounds like it,anyway)

I think it's "Keeeeeeeeep Hangin' On".
I have the album at home, must mp3 it actually....and buy a new hard drive to hold all my mp3s, divxes and Futurama episodes.

Lemming

Originally posted by Victor


Vietnam War book wreck your head. BHD as a book is much less FUBARed in that sense, but at the same time the events are FUBARed in BHD.

FUBARed most definitely .. T'was the Vietnam war after all. But some of the stories in ChickenHawk are so f*cked up and beyond all sense of reasonable reality that they're actually funny

As the abbreviation goes: SNAFU

"Situation Normal (All ****ed Up)"

Draco

Lads, keep the posts on topic about the film. Take anything else to the likes of Humanities.

c0y0te

Lemming...

you asked how long it takes to read the book? Basically it depends on your appetite for reading. Personally I read the entire book in a weekend and thought it was an interesting (if not slightly obvious) view of the situation.

As for some of the other comments above.. I do not know how anyone can call this a 'successful mission'. From even a rudimentary knowledge of military planning, it is clear to me that the mission objectives do not just revolve around the target(s). A successful mission is not whether you get your target out at all costs or not, it involves the planning, co-ordination and execution stages, as well as the casualty and mortality rates.

From that perspective.. this was a total screw-up. Planning was slapshod, based on assumptions about the capabilities of the local militia. Co-ordination during the mission was terrible. And as for execution, as soon as the pre-planned tasks went south, and it became obvious that the mission was going to hell and back.. all semblence of control and structure vanished and it was 'every small group for themselves'.

This mess was caused by arrogance on behalf of the planners, and incompetance on behalf of the commanders when the crap hit the fan. The actual grunts and special forces on the ground responded in the only way they could, given the circumstances... which to be fair were dire indeed. It is amazing that anyone got out in one piece at all.. but there is no way I can see that this could be called a 'successful mission'. Sorry - it just doesn't jive. Bodycount does not denote success.

c0y0te

Victor

Originally posted by c0y0te
As for some of the other comments above.. I do not know how anyone can call this a 'successful mission'. ...... but there is no way I can see that this could be called a 'successful mission'. Sorry - it just doesn't jive. Bodycount does not denote success.

I'm not sure many people count it as a 'successful mission' in the traditional sense and that is a major point in the book. They 'acheived their main objective' at excessive cost to lives, much like the Royal Navy in the Battle of the Bight (?).

Fidelis

It was a Pyrrhic victory.

If it wasn't for the D-Boys and the choppers doing machine gun runs along the streets, then they would've failed miserably.

Horrowing stuff though, when the two Delta snipers volunteered to get off the Black Hawk and stay with one of the downed choppers even though it was painfully obvious that their position was eventually going to be over-run.

*fixer, is the movie any good at all ?

mayhem#

Originally posted by fixer
in-ability of the US special forces? what is your level of reading comprehension? 100 american special forces against 5000 somalians? It was like playing football with only a forward and a keeper and still scoring 200 goals for every 1 against in a game that lasted for 24 hours

You obviuosly haven't got a clue what you're talking about. It was supposed to be a "snatch & run" mission. In and out no ****in' about for hours. Did you actually read the book? Sticks being dropped of in the wrong spots, guys falling out of choppers etc... The fact that they were outnumbered doesn't make the more able...

From a friend in the US:
Firstly ,the mission was to go in and get two associates of Aidid, and hope there were others at the hotel at the same time. They got them and others, so on that stand the mission objective was achieved, no matter how many people lost their lives, the mission was a success. But they did loose 19 people and 70 something injured out of and original force of 100 that went in. The force had done something like 8 missions up till that point, everyone of them went off fine, but everyone of them were at night where those forces have a big advantage.

They went in and got shot to pieces, the mission was badly planned, intel was crap and the Yanks were surprised to even experience return fire. They also were to gung-ho and full of misled pride and patriotism. They should have cut their losses and pulled out what they could much earlier.

They had the correct intel and everything started off as planned, what they did not know was that as soon as task for ranger landed in Somalia Aidid got hold of his Al-Qaeda buddies and got a **** load of mildly better trained characters in. I know it sounds bull**** but Bin Ladens cronies were there, he has had tons of ties to Somalia in the past, bets are on that this is where he reapears.

Get real...

The military did make mistakes in a few areas, with all the missions having gone so well they did take chance by going in by daylight, but they were under serious pressure to get something done. As in the movie no took NODs or enough water.
.

They ****ed up, end of story.
Oh yes, and they had it coming..

po0k

The biggest kick in the teeth was when Clinton pulled the mission days after it happened.
Why the fck even bother going in if it matters so little compared to a slightly bad press day????

They were trying to form a Democratic™ government so they'd have a bit of sway in that area to maintain the monopoly on power they hold in the west.

Propaganda.

The book is biased too, but is informative and didn't leave me with an flag waving 'in god we thrust' 'deh-mock-race-ee' impression.

Draco

Right...I'm locking this thread since no one is taking about the film itself. Take comments on the book to Litrature, comments on the politics to Politics.