Equal Status Act and Dress Codes

DadaKopf

The Equal Status Act prohobits restriction of the provision of goods and services on nine grounds (here) but want to know what the story is with a club's dress code.

Last weekend I was refused entry to a club because of my clothes - the bouncer said "no mad ****". I then quoted the Equal Status Act to him and he said "fine" but that I had to bring a Garda to the club so that something could be done about it. If this was the case, the club was breaking the law but they're banking that people won't actually report it to a Gard. I didn't get stroppy, they didn't get stroppy and I didn't pursue it because I didn't want to go in anyway but this kind of stuff has to be happening to hundreds if not thousands of people every weekend at least.

Although the act doesn't mention appearance, this is a form of discrimination.

What I want someone to tell me is: what are the grounds of refusal of entry to a club due to your clothes/appearance? And what immediately and practically can be done to prevent this from happening again?

If anyone here is studying law or works in law and knows the answer, I'd be very interested in finding out. Everyone needs to know. Information is very scarce in this regard - and I can imagine why.

Meh

Both Acts prohibit discrimination on nine grounds. These are:

Gender
Marital Status
Family Status
Sexual Orientation
Religious Belief
Age
Disability
Race
Membership of the Traveller Community

I don't see "dress sense" in there. In other words, the bouncer is free to refuse you entry for whatever reason, as long as it's not one of the reasons on the above list. Stop whinging about your "rights" and go buy some new clothes.

Brown Eyes

Unless your dress was indicative of your gender / sexuality / ethnic origin etc.

logic1

"We reserve the right to refuse admission"

Case closed.

Buy some new clothes and less bleeding heart art student crap.

.logic.

ykt0di9url7bc3

They can refuse ne1 and whats more they dont have to give you a reason....in fact bouncers and barstaff are told not to give a reason in case someone takes it up with the law...

There is no use arguing to a bouncer/barman bout it...you were unlucky

Bluehair

I was speaking to a Chinese friend of mine recently about night-life in Dublin and found what he had to say amusing but quite incitful.

"In Dublin you have tough men at front door to stop people coming in and pretty girls inside having to listen to rowdy drunks, In China we have pretty girls at front door to get people to come in and tough men inside to get drunks to behave!!!"

Funny but true.. (mental note.. must go clubbing in China )

DadaKopf

Abusive drivel deleted.

Monkey

I've checked into this sort of **** before and it's true they can tell you they don't like your clothes if they want.

I can't quote an act but the equality authority told me there's nothing they can do.

What i wanna know is what "mad ****" were you wearing?

DadaKopf

Hehe, I wasn't wearing anything 'mad' at all. Hoodie, t-shirt, typical brown corduroy coat and baggy pants. Oh yeah, and shoes. It was the pants they were objecting to. I just looked like an ordinary, dishevelled student!

You're pretty sure about this, are you Monkey? Have you ever known bouncers to say "go get a Gard"? That was what intruiged me most.

Monkey

He might have just said it in a sarcastic way as if to say "well, what are you gonna do about it?"

Where was it?

Brown Eyes

I know a bit about the law, and as I posted earlier, the only way this act would refer to you is if your clothes were indicative of your ethnic origin / sexuality etc. This law has been evoked to enable Sikhs wear turbans to work, or women to have the choice between wearing skirts or trousers as part of their uniform. Its a serious piece of legislation intended to protect vulnerable people against bigots.

Bard

Originally posted by SearrarD
They can refuse ne1 and whats more they dont have to give you a reason....in fact bouncers and barstaff are told not to give a reason in case someone takes it up with the law...

There is no use arguing to a bouncer/barman bout it...you were unlucky

I'm quite sure that this is true, - and as a barman myself, I'm bloody glad of it!

bonkey

Originally posted by DadaKopf
Have you ever known bouncers to say "go get a Gard"? That was what intruiged me most.

Its the fastest way out of an argument with a punter at the door.

The bouncer has given his decision. He is not willing to discuss any further. His easiest way out is to tell you to get the law, if you feel your legal rights are being stepped on. He also probably knows that if you did go to a guard, you would be told there is nothing they can do about it, so forget it.

Either way, it saves the bouncer getting into a long "oh no it isnt, of yes it is" argument. Worst case scenario is you get a guard, come back, and the guard says "let him in", in which case the bouncer still doesnt care - now he is simply obeying the instructions of a legal officer.

Either way it saves him hassle and arguments.

Not that unusual - I've seen plenty of bouncers tell people to go get a cop if they (the people) have a problem. Its a win-win for the bouncers.

The fact that you didnt bother shows how effective the tactic is

jc

Karl Hungus

I was once stopped for wearing my side-buckled pants into a nightclub.
I went home and changed them, then went back in. Nothing more was said.

seamus

Same happened to a few ppl I know trying to get into fireworks(what a hole!) Bouncer said 'go get a guard' so they did, and the Guard told them that it's not a criminal matter, but a civil one, ie he didn't care, and he wasn't going to bother his ass getting them in. That's the way 'tis.

(Angelwhore - side-buckled trousers?? Did he say why he didn't like them??

Chaos-Engine

tried to post this earlier but my damn comp crashed on me... booh who

I had a similar situation last year about the time that act came into being. I was refused entrance to "Whelans" as i wasn't "21" but of legal age and holding a driver's licence and passport showing my age to be UNDENIABLY 18... The had no right to refuse me as I was being discriminated due to age... I got the better of them there as i got a lawyer friend(teacher) of mine to kick up a fuss(Gardis have no place in this as it isn't criminal)...

Anyway back to the topic.... You can't be discriminated on any PERMAINANT grounds e.g. the Nine catagories listed above, as you can't change these or by changing them you are denied civil liberties...
BUT
clubs/Pubs etc can discriminate on something like Dress code, Finance, "Intent of a group" or "Past badexperiences".
Example:

as shown above "The bouncers don't like what I am wearing" - "If i get changed into something that they decide is the dress code they must now let me in on those grounds"... The managment use this to obviously create a certain type of clientelee in their establishment... This isn't always respected by bouncers as sometimes they change the dress code to discriminate against you(hard to prove).

something else "Entrance fees" - By charging into a nightclub/pub etc you can usually get teh higher paid or those that will spent more coming in... Usually won't get smack heads paying in"... pretty obvious this one

"Intent of a group"
The Stag and Hen nights in Temble bar ban... None of these groups are aloud access to pubs/clubs/restrants... as they are un ruly in nature. This particular discrimination is on the thin line but I certain;y approve of it... All those Fackin Brits going on the piss in dublin for the weekend .... grrrrrr :mad:

"Past bad experiences"
If u prove that u r a bad customer they why should they trust u again. Its not discrimination as u messed up in the past. They don't have to give u a second chance... Don't smoke blow and get caught if u want to keep going there!!!...

.....

Basically if you can be good and do as your told then u can get in anywhere... A bouncer will NEVER back down. OTherwise his job is finished as his authority is undermined. Ring the place up on your mobile from a quiet distance and ask to talk to the managment(don't ask the bouncers for the boss)... Inform the Manager that u were refused at his door by "Big Micko" and it was for one of the 9 reasons (usually AGE).... He might tell u ... "Yeah well u must be 21 not 19..." tell him both u and your friend were listening to the phone(get him/her to say HI!) and that he/she is your witness and that ignorance is no excuse.. You should probably NEVER try to get in there again or the bouncers might kill u or hurt u atleast.. But u might make it alot more fairer for the rest of us

Good luck Dadakopf

Victor

There is a piece in the Irish times Today:

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2002/0107/3293660929HMPUBEQUALITY.html

Publicans ready to fight equality legislation
By Colman Cassidy

Publicans are preparing to fight back against equality legislation which outlaws their use of "Regulars only", "Quotas" and "Ban on accompanied children" practices.

The Vintners' Federation of Ireland president, Mr Dick Dunne, yesterday denied that discrimination was widespread among Irish pub-owners and bar staff. "The publican is obliged under the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1998 to run an orderly house," he said.

His comments were made against the background of three recent cases which found publicans to be in breach of the equality legislation.

In the case of Michael McDonagh vs the Castle Inn, Birr, Co Offaly, the publican admitted to operating a quota system whereby no more than five Travellers were served at any given time. No similar quota system operated for settled people.

Mr McDonagh, a settled Traveller who was refused service in the pub, was awarded £1,000 (€1,270) in compensation.

A second case, Bernard, Richard and Thomas Joyce vs Liz Delaney's Pub, Coolock, Dublin, centred around discrimination against a Traveller family based on the adoption of a "regulars only" policy.

Bernard and Richard Joyce were awarded £700 (€889) each in compensation for three incidents of discrimination - and Thomas Joyce £500 (€635) for two incidents of discrimination which he suffered.

In the third case, John Maughan vs The Glimmerman, Dublin, the equality officer said: "Publicans must serve parents when accompanied by their children under 18 years old, in all circumstances."

The claimant, Mr Maughan, who was visually impaired, entered the pub with his visually impaired wife and his guide dog at 4.15 pm. They were accompanied by their 13-year-old son.

Mr Maughan sent his son outside and was served, said the Equality Authority. His son later returned (as it was raining) and Mr Maughan was again refused service. The boy left. Then he was told he could not be served as dogs were not allowed on the premises.

He produced a card which stated guide dogs were allowed entry to premises.

The equality officer found he was discriminated against on "family status" grounds.

It was also decided Mr Maughan had established prima facie evidence of discrimination on grounds of disability and being a member of the Traveller community. He was awarded £2,000 (€2,539).

The VFI is to seek clarification in the Circuit Court concerning the responsibilities of publicans under the Equal Status Act, 2000.

Section 15 (2) of the Act provides that once a publican decided "in good faith" there were sufficient grounds for not serving someone, he could refuse to do so without being in breach of the equality legislation, said the federation president.

Dr. Loon

Originally posted by DadaKopf
Have you ever known bouncers to say "go get a Gard"? That was what intruiged me most.

We were playing a gig once in TBMC and one of the lads trying to get in was being blanked by the bouncers. Now he did look really young and in fact was under age, but he had a very well done fake drivers license!!
So my mate went with him and found a garda, displayed the fake drivers license to the Gard and said "now they shuold be letting him in on that shouldn't they?" and the Gard agreed....so.... off they go back to the bouncers with the Gard, and the Gard just says "that lad is legal age, let him in" Ha ha!!
So he got in.... the bouncers were fúckin sick, I'm glad that we got one over on the gits!!!

Now I imagine that the Gard was just bored out of his shíte, but still it was great to see the look on the bouncers face!! Priceless

Victor

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2002/0108/3905232766HMEQUALITY.html

Publicans 'not obliged' to serve adults accompanied by children

Publicans are not obliged to serve adults accompanied by their children in all circumstances, the Office of the Director of Equality Investigations said yesterday.

It issued the clarification following newspaper reports that it had ruled to the contrary in a case taken under the Equal Status legislation by a visually impaired man against a Dublin pub.

The visually impaired man, Mr John Maughan, claimed he had been refused service in The Glimmer Man public house on grounds of his family status, his disability and his membership of the Traveller community.

His case was that he entered the pub accompanied by his visually impaired wife, his guide dog and his 13-year-old son. The barman told him he could not serve him because the pub had a "no children" policy. Mr Maughan claimed he sent his son home but was subsequently refused service because he had a dog with him and because he was a Traveller.

The owner of the pub, Mr William Fortune, claimed the man was served when his child left the pub but the child returned.

The equality officer found the pub discriminated against Mr Maughan on the basis of his family status.

"Although there are strong moral and social arguments why parents should not bring children under 18 years old into pubs with them, I consider that under current legislation parents are entitled to bring their children into licensed premises with them if they wish.

However, my findings on this point should not be interpreted as meaning that publicans must serve parents when accompanied by their children under 18 years old in all circumstances. This is because the Licensing Acts require publicans to run orderly houses and to ensure that under-18-year-olds do not consume alcohol on their premises."

The Glimmer Man was ordered to pay Mr Maughan £2,000 compensation for embarrassment and stress.

thegills

Just a few experiences to share with ye;
1. I was refused for wearing white socks once (I had a valid reason). I took the socks of in front of the bouncer, put them in my pocket and he let me in
2. I left a club in town just to get a bite as you do sometimes, the f*****g bouncer refused me entrance back in. I had to wait 2 hours in the cold for my mates to come out with my coat (including car keys)
3. Two years later the same bouncer picked me out of a crowd and refused me again.

WhiteWashMan

i like to go to places where the price of drinks is expensive nad theres lots of bouncers on the door.
it means im free of scumbags and students for a few hours.

if you are going out in dublin then you should at least make the effort to get dressed up.
you know you will be refused entrance into certain places.
besides you'll never pick up any girls.
not that they would be interested in going back to DNC with you

swiss

I think WWMan has demonstrated exactly why niteclubs can exclude people without quoting any applicable reason. It is important for certain places to keep a certain clientele, those that they feel will not cause them trouble, and will create repeat business (due to the absence of those who would).

However, this in itself is a form of discrimination. I usually don't have difficulty getting into niteclubs (must be my innocent features ) but a friend of mine has a great amount of difficulty getting into one niteclub (Merlins in Waterford) in particular. Even with Garda ID and appropriate dress, the bouncers still found some excuse to refuse him entry.

It was obviously felt that he didn't fit with the regular 'clientele', or for some reason or another was refused on grounds other than the obvious ones such as being drunk, dressing shabbily etc.

I wonder if it's legal for a public house to try to achieve exclusivity. This tactic may win the niteclub some dedicated (and doubtlessly affluent) patrons, but what for the rest of us who simply want to go somewhere not infested with scumbags? Since when have bouncers been elevated to management, that they can make entirely unctuous decisions about their clientele?

ayatollah

look lads i had this problem when i was underage!!
and this is some free advice for ye
1) don't go in with a big group of young or young looking people!!!
2) dont look nervous.
3) dont start getting all hyper that you got in - if your lucky enough to get in.
4) if the bouncer says no dont piss him off just politely ask him why not and leave - my friend did this - the next time he tried to get in the bouncer recognised him and pulled him to the front of the queue and let him in - and he was a good 1 and 1/2 years underage at the time!!!
5) try and get to the pub before the bouncers start - most bouncers only come on duty at around 8:00 or 9:00!!

Lemming

Originally posted by swiss
However, this in itself is a form of discrimination. I usually don't have difficulty getting into niteclubs (must be my innocent features ) but a friend of mine has a great amount of difficulty getting into one niteclub (Merlins in Waterford) in particular. Even with Garda ID and appropriate dress, the bouncers still found some excuse to refuse him entry.

It was obviously felt that he didn't fit with the regular 'clientele', or for some reason or another was refused on grounds other than the obvious ones such as being drunk, dressing shabbily etc.

I wonder if it's legal for a public house to try to achieve exclusivity. This tactic may win the niteclub some dedicated (and doubtlessly affluent) patrons, but what for the rest of us who simply want to go somewhere not infested with scumbags?

Unfortunately, niteclubs can do this pracice legally for one simple reason ... the "club" bit in their name. They are still technically "by invitation only". Thus they can behave as and how they see fit as regards admission (up to a point of course). Under any blatantly illegal decisions they may have their licence taken from them, but would be still allowed to operate (minus drinks) since they are a club.

A public house/pub/bar/whatever on the other hand does not have the same luxury of picking and choosing its clientele. Any bouncer telling you that you can't get in due to not wearing this piece of clothing or that is actually illegal. They can only refuse to serve you at the bar ... and on reasonable grounds of public safety.

On another note ... did you know; its illegal for ANYONE (excluding customs and some government depts.) to ask you for your passport. Even a garda can't ask you specifically for it. This is because its a state issued document, therefore you are NOT supposed to carry it around for such frivilous reasons as getting into clubs, etc. So technically .. the next bouncer who asks you for your passport can actually be prosecuted for it in a court of law.

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Lemming



On another note ... did you know; its illegal for ANYONE (excluding customs and some government depts.) to ask you for your passport. Even a garda can't ask you specifically for it. This is because its a state issued document, therefore you are NOT supposed to carry it around for such frivilous reasons as getting into clubs, etc. So technically .. the next bouncer who asks you for your passport can actually be prosecuted for it in a court of law.

its not illegal for anyone to ask you for a passport.
you just dont have to give it over.
and because its a state document doesnt mean you cant carry it or are not suppose to carry it about. i think a lot of european countries have state id cards that are meant to be carried about.

and no, you cant be procecuted for asking to see a passport.

after all a driving licence is a state document and youre suppose to carry that with you.

ha! long tim e since i was id'd.
oh the days when i was sooo young

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Lemming

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan


its not illegal for anyone to ask you for a passport.
you just dont have to give it over.
and because its a state document doesnt mean you cant carry it or are not suppose to carry it about. i think a lot of european countries have state id cards that are meant to be carried about.

and no, you cant be procecuted for asking to see a passport.

after all a driving licence is a state document and youre suppose to carry that with you.

AH .. but a driving licence doesn't state that you're a national of country "n", merely that you have a driving licence issued in country "n"!!

Neither does a state ID provide you with nationality, again simply showing that its an ID card issued by said state.

A passport is a MUCH more serious document to have lost or stolen, hence its not to be asked for by anyone except customs, or certain government offices such as when you apply for a driving licence, social welfare, etc to prove you are who you claim to be.

Why do you think Gardai never say "drivers licence or passport" please if they ask for id if they stop you (unless driving of course ), and then say "sorry ,... gonna have to drag you to the cop-shop" if you hand them anything else? Because they can't! And neither can Bouncers (or anyone else).