more proof bin laden did it...as if u need it

yankinlk

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011210/wl/afghan_bin_laden_tape.html

dahamsta

hearsay

noun
second-hand information: information that is heard from other people

adjective
heard second-hand: being or containing information heard from other people

Worse, it's hearsay from Bush. I'll believe it when I see it myself. Possibly.

adam

Baz_

reportedly shows Osama bin Laden relishing the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks

from article. On the news the day after I saw hundreds of people relishing the attacks, are they all responsible. Now granted if it is a tape with bin laden saying "brilliant, years of my very careful planning and I have finally been able to personally to orchestrate the murder of thousands of americans" (or something to that effect) then I would say thats pretty damning evidence, but don't forget either that somebody else did the translating and so its definitely without a shadow of a doubt going to have a huge bias on it, so I think I'll be taking that video with large piece of salt (if it exists).

gandalf

Man you think I'm going to believe what Bush and his cronies say. When I see the tape with a impartial translation then I will believe it.

Gandalf.

Manach

But, why would the US place the blame on OBL if another agency was responsible for the WTC attack and thus would escape US (bloody retribution / justice)?


Hearsay - A dodgey band formed in an even dodgery TV series.

dahamsta

Some might say that the current rumblings of rolling on into Iraq "while they're there" would be a good reason.

What annoys me though, is that you don't need to be a particularly dark-minded conspiracy theorist to see this stuff. All we have is Bush and Blair's word that Al Queda and Bin Laden are responsible. They've provided no evidence to the global population, not even to their own citizens, and hardly to their own governments. Why should we trust either of them? Where's the oversight?

The whole thing sickens and disgusts me to be honest. The United States believe they are a law unto themselves, a bunch of guntoting cowboys for the most part (and that's nothing to be proud of, no matter how butch Hollywood makes out the Wild West); the British on the world stage at this stage is the international equivalent of your dad at a party; and Cowen and Bertie threw what tiny vestiges of neutrality we had left at the Americans, who didn't even bloody want it.

And what happens when we get our chance to do something about it, when the general election rolls around? Half the population don't even bother getting up off their arse. Worse, in America, when they do get a chance, and a small percentage of people actually do go out and poke their chads, the guy with less votes wins. And they don't change the law. Now that's Irish.

adam

Typedef

I hope you're not suggesting that people in this country like to moan and whinge about injustices in the world, but when it comes down to it we will rubber stamp and support US Sponsored-UN resolutions pertaining to "USA's right of self defence" and kiss American Ass.

Yeah it's good to know that the USA has been usurping the freedoms and rights of other countries for the last 100 years to gaurantee "ours" in the Western World, lets face it all those other non-american, non-white, non-christian mud-people aren't capable of governing themselves, so it is probably better done by Washington via the CIA.

Kind of makes me feel proud to be part of an insignificant satellite state, sniff, sniff.

Gargoyle

Originally posted by Typedef

Yeah it's good to know that the USA has been usurping the freedoms and rights of other countries for the last 100 years to gaurantee "ours" in the Western World,

Laughs @ Typedef (apparently thinks he'd be better off living under Nazi/ Soviet / take your pick, rule. Me thinks it would be a helluva lot worse. )

ps - 100 years?

Typedef

Yeah umm better watch out for the seething masses of communists in Grenada and Guatemala, I hear both these countries had Ireland at the top of the invasion list.

Of course we should be grateful that our benovalent American benofactors have not decided this is an Oil Rich(eh I mean terrorist country). God it's great to have "Freedom" at the expense of Greneda, Palestine, Guatemala, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Cuba, Chile, Pakistan, Afghanistan(oops sorry don't mention the fact the Americans used to fund the Afghanis and don't mention the fact the Americans funded Saddam Hussein), Iran.. hmm don't think I can think of any other country the CIA has interferred with to protect "us" from the Soviet Union and keep all of our freedoms off the top of my head.

Oh.. we really must be living in the Utopia of US benovalence, silly me.

Typedef

Doubleplusgood

Gargoyle

Typedef, I'm just curious, what do you actually do for a living?

Typedef

What the hell does that matter?
Don't you know the way it works in the west?

Daddy finds oil, daddy rigs the election for himself and then for you. You don't actually have to do anything, not win a majority of votes, when you are fighting muslim mud-people or communist (slant-eyed, left-wing, totalitarian, nip, ruskies) no, no. In fact you can even use toy-soldiers from another country to do all the real dirty work, wouldn't be right if white people died in a war, after all they're the ones who actually did vote for you. The opposition of that kind of social stratification for our freedom US - style is occupation (I mean job) enough.

Gargoyle

Originally posted by Typedef
What the hell does that matter?
Don't you know the way it works in the west?

Daddy finds oil, daddy rigs the election for himself and then for you. You don't actually have to do anything, not win a majority of votes, when you are fighting muslim mud-people or communist (slant-eyed, left-wing, totalitarian, nip, ruskies) no, no. In fact you can even use toy-soldiers from another country to do all the real dirty work, wouldn't be right if white people died in a war, after all they're the ones who actually did vote for you. The opposition of that kind of social stratification for our freedom US - style is occupation (I mean job) enough.

You are obsessed Typedef. Let it go. Society isn't going anywhere.

dahamsta

oops sorry don't mention the fact the Americans used to fund the Afghanis and don't mention the fact the Americans funded Saddam Hussein

You forgot to not mention that the United States, through the CIA, is the country wholly responsible for arming Osama Bin Laden in the Cold War "battle" against the reds under the bed. They're blowing up weapons they paid for themselves. They're not even very good at capitalism!

[Contrary to appearances, I actually don't dislike all Americans. Just quite a lot of them.]

adam

dahamsta

You are obsessed Typedef. Let it go. Society isn't going anywhere.

Gah! Defeatism! I hope you don't vote with those fingers.

adam

Gargoyle

Originally posted by dahamsta
They're not even very good at capitalism!



adam

The current world economy - indeed Ireland's own economy - would not support that assertion.

Gargoyle

Originally posted by dahamsta
You are obsessed Typedef. Let it go. Society isn't going anywhere.

Gah! Defeatism! I hope you don't vote with those fingers.

adam

Defeatism? You mean to imply that you want society to disappear? Please clarify.

BTW - Yes I do vote with these fingers.

Baz_

No Gargoyle he was talking about you. You suggested that Typedef should just forget about, what are without a doubt injustices, because fair enough if they have the proof, attack, but even if they do have the proof, they shouldn't attack a nation (Afghanistan) under another nations name (America) without showing the attacking nations (America) population the aforementioned proof. That is an injustice IMO anyway. Granted the American population don't seem to want the proof (and I'm sure we'll hear from our American friend soon, to confirm), so it might seem like a good idea to forget it and if you had read one of Dahamastas replies which said this:

And what happens when we get our chance to do something about it, when the general election rolls around? Half the population don't even bother getting up off their arse

Which is a behaviour that might fit well on somebody who says things like this:

You are obsessed Typedef. Let it go. Society isn't going anywhere.

Sorry about the stinging attack Gargoyle, but at this stage I think we should have been demanding proof for three months.

<EDIT>edited for clarity</EDIT>

Hobbes

Originally posted by Gargoyle


You are obsessed Typedef. Let it go. Society isn't going anywhere.

You have been told before. Attack the post, not the poster. If you can't constructively shoot down his comments then don't post snide remarks.

Now my take on things.

The US is under serious heat from the rest of the world now for it's attitude. Believe what you like on US TV that the world loves you but it's far from it.

England and France have vocally said if the US invades Iraq they will not support them.

Spain has said they will not hand over possible terrorist suspects to the US as they will not get a fair trial (With military courts the person can be tried and executed and the public would never know).

They are getting a lot of flack now because of the PATROIT act.

The US has to come up with reasoning to continue their war.

If anyone has been paying attention to the what's going on in the US goverment (read the whitehouse and DOJ press articles on their sites and thomas jefferson site) Ashcroft recently released Al Qida "Terror Manual" (dubbed Bin Ladens) to help stir up the populance. What Ashcroft fails to mention was the manual was found in England early last year and has been free to view under the FOIA for quite some time. In fact you can read an uncensored translated version on a number of websites on the net (all legit sites too).

Now this "We have proof!" tape is just an attempt to say "Ha we told you so!". Let's face it. Bin Laden is fucked. Bush has already signed an order to kill on sight long before any evidence was shown.

And why is it he has to show new evidence? The previous tape they waved about on TV claiming he may of been responsible was in fact a censored version of the tape that the rest of the world got to see before the US. There was nothing in it that said he did it. How about showing the evidence they orginally had?

Another thing people may fail to realise. Bin Laden speaks fluent English. He did his schooling in the West. If he wanted to make a statement or admit to it he could do so easily. Of course if he said he didn't do it, it would mean dick anyway as the US is on a revenge mission.

Prior to the war England where getting slapped by the EU for helping the US steal business secrets and the US was getting given out to for thinking it owns the world, plus Bush was sitting on the edge of a recession while screwing up your pensions by making people think that giving them an extra $100 or so will make it better (well off people, apprantly the tax cut didn't effect the poor).

Bush's party is already using the war as an excuse to attack the other party. In one of his speeches he attacks the senate saying they are evil because they won't pass a load of bills through straight away (heck they didn't read the US act and look what happened there).

Then we have Ashcroft who was told to report a status on the 1000 or so people who have been held without being charged and hasn't given a valid report. Instead he told them that they were helping the terrorists by asking that.

Just like to point out. One person has died while being detained under the new US act (apprantly natural causes). What is scary is that none of his family even knew where he was until they were told that he was dead.

They had one of the spokesmen from the US goverment on TV last week (either Ashcroft or another DOJ person). They were asking him about how they can justify the removal of rights for foriegn nationals who enter their country. He went into this long speech about how if a terrorist comes into their country, yada yada, lock him up and throw away the key. Then the presenter says "So your basically saying all 20 million nationals are terrorists?" at which point he was speechless.

Yet that is what you are basically saying by denying the rights of people.

And then on TV I get to look at the aftermath of an Iseral Helicopter that fires a missile into 2 children and their spokesman on TV saying "Hey tough" (sic), with the US saying this is acceptable behaviour both publically and by funding it. Then you have the British reporter who was beaten up by Afgan locals (not taliban) after he asked for help to fix his car. Apprantly US bombs had killed quite a few of the villagers (again children). Then I switch to US biased TV stations and I get to see them talk about the next coolest weapon we plan to use and how all Afgans apprantly live in caves which is why we can justifying killing them.

The US is becoming the very thing they claim to be fighting.

Gargoyle

Originally posted by Hobbes



Believe what you like on US TV that the world loves you but it's far from it.

I could be wrong, but I think most Americans realize that the rest of the world (including Europe) pretty much hates us. As Wilt Chamberlain once said, "Nobody roots for Goliath."

And then on TV I get to look at the aftermath of an Iseral Helicopter that fires a missile into 2 children and their spokesman on TV saying "Hey tough"

Unfortunately, Israel deems this necessary to prevent another 20 or so teenage girls from getting blown up in a pizza parlour. They've basically said to the Palestinian Authority to attempt to prevent this stuff or they will take it into their own hands. The PA police force, however, contrary to helping out, is actually actively allowing it to continue, according to a recent report. This corraborates what Israel has been saying for many years.

No Gargoyle he was talking about you. You suggested that Typedef should just forget about, what are without a doubt injustices, because fair enough if they have the proof, attack, but even if they do have the proof, they shouldn't attack a nation (Afghanistan) under another nations name (America) without showing the attacking nations (America) population the aforementioned proof. That is an injustice IMO anyway. Granted the American population don't seem to want the proof (and I'm sure we'll hear from our American friend soon, to confirm), so it might seem like a good idea to forget it and if you had read one of Dahamastas replies which said this:

And what happens when we get our chance to do something about it, when the general election rolls around? Half the population don't even bother getting up off their arse

Which is a behaviour that might fit well on somebody who says things like this:

You are obsessed Typedef. Let it go. Society isn't going anywhere.

Sorry about the stinging attack Gargoyle, but at this stage I think we should have been demanding proof for three months.

Americans are satified as of now that we have proof and it will be shown when the time is right. People here are actually much more concerned that giving away too much might give would be compromising our national security than with demanding proof for attacking a warlord that states repeatedly how virulently he despises us...imagine that.

Also, since I vote, I don't see where the, "And what happens when we get our chance to do something about it, when the general election rolls around? Half the population don't even bother getting up off their arse." quote applies to me, as you suggest.

gandalf

The PA police force, however, contrary to helping out, is actually actively allowing it to continue, according to a recent report. This corraborates what Israel has been saying for many years

With respect Gargoyle what report are you referring to and do you have a link for it.

And additionally its pretty stupid that Isreal are telling the PA Police to arrest these terrorists and blowing the sh!t out of the infrastructure thats needed to carry out these actions at the same time.

Heres a statistic for you nearly 180 of the more than 1,050 people killed (in PA areas) since September 2001 have been Palestinian children under the age of 16 that makes pretty grim reading. If that was a death toll against US Citizens then the perpetrators would be labelled mass murderers and hunted down by the US. But because its one of your allies and the victims aren't Americans the rules are different.

Gandalf.

[Statistic taken from this article http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/world/2001/1211/wor1.htm ]

Gargoyle

Sorry Gandalf. Just spent ~10 mins looking for it and can't find it. But it appeared in the Irish Times 1 or 2 weeks ago (before the massive terrorist attacks I think).

Will look again later. Have to run for now.

dahamsta

I could be wrong, but I think most Americans realize that the rest of the world (including Europe) pretty much hates us. As Wilt Chamberlain once said, "Nobody roots for Goliath."

Aww, boo-hoo, poor America. Well, I could be wrong too, but I reckon that - the "everybody hates us", or worse, the "everybody hate us because we're better than them" philosophy - is what causes a lot of the problems. Sure, there are people that hate America, and others that hate American people, but they are /not/ the same thing.

Me, I dislike a lot of what America stands for: I find the gross capitalism... well... gross; I find the over-enthusiastic patriotism sadly blinkered; I find the over-commericalisation unfair to most of the population; I find the whole attitude selfish, with no consideration for the rest of the world. And a lot of those "qualities" are apparent in American people too - the Texan saying "isn't this just cute" isn't a myth, "it's funny because it's true" - and that's why I dislike many American people.

But note there that I said "many American people", not "all American people". I like most Americans I meet in person. And the same goes for America itself. There are a lot of things I absolutely hate about America, but there are a lot of things I love about it too, particularly the very *idea* of America, land of the free and all that. I'd love to go to America, and in fact my all-time travel dream is to drive across it, from California to Florida.

But when people like "American" turn up, they turn me off the country immediately. I won't stop liking the idea of America, or the American friends I have, but they do tend to demonstrate all that's bad about America. "I'm right and your wrong, and if you don't agree with me, I'll bomb you." I dislike that kind of crap intensely. I dislike Bush for the same reason. And for the most part the Republicans.

Americans are satified as of now that we have proof and it will be shown when the time is right.

See? What you're saying is "this is our fight and we'll do what we want". Well that's bollocks, and America's trips around the world shortly after S11 to get support just prove that. Afghanistan is not America's toy to play with, it's part of *my* world, everyone's world. *I* don't have proof, and I'm not sure *I'll* ever see it.

People here are actually much more concerned that giving away too much might give would be compromising our national security

It has to be true, the Government said so...

Also, since I vote, I don't see where the, "And what happens when we get our chance to do something about it, when the general election rolls around? Half the population don't even bother getting up off their arse." quote applies to me, as you suggest.

Who said it applies to you?

adam

dahamsta

dahamsta: They're not even very good at capitalism!
Gargoyle: The current world economy - indeed Ireland's own economy - would not support that assertion.

Humour.

Typedef

Myth : Israel is a democratic entity trying to fight irrational terrorists.

Fact: Israel has invaded and occupied Palestinian land and has UN resolutions calling for the immediate withdrawal of said force of occupation.

Myth: The US is an impartial broker of peace

Fact: The US has given over 50 billion dollars of ostensibly military aid to Israel.

Myth: Palestinian men aspire to blow themselves up in suicide bombings almost as much as they aspire to be doctors.

Fact: People don't just arbitrarily decide to go become "terrorists", the reality is there is a connection between the act of terrorism and underlying socio-political motivations, no matter how much the US & Israel ignores it.

Myth: So called terrorists hate America because of "American Freedoms"

Fact: So called terrorists hate America because, the USA has usurped, murdered and abrogated the rights of non-US and sometimes US, citizens to protect it's interests on a pan-demic scale. Support of the Saudi Royal Family, support of Pakistani military dictatorship, support of Israeli colonialism, former support of Saddam Hussein, the Iatollah, the military junta in Nigeria, not to mention the South American states where the real seat of power is Washington.

Fact: Don't expect the USA ever to make any kind of rationalisation of these acts, the response will be either to ignore your arguments, to react with threats and shouts of "well if we didn't bail you out y'all id be speakin Russin", or simply badly constructed and illogically argued non-thoughts that the US doesn't have to qualify anyway because at the end of the day, the US has more nukes then most other people, so it really doesn't have to waste it's time rationalising it's blatant imperialism

QED.

bonkey

Adding the titles "myth" and "fact" to your arguments makes them no more or less persuasive than they were previously.

However, adding QED at the bottom is pointless. You havent proven anything, simply offered another perception of the situation.

The truth concerning Israel, the US, and Palestine lies somewhere in between all the "truths" and "myths" issued by both sides. No-one in that situation has absolute right or absolute wrong on their side, and the situation is far more complex than you are making it out to be.

jc

Hobbes

As Wilt Chamberlain once said, "Nobody roots for Goliath."

Well as far as I remember his army did. But then Goliath was a leader of an evil invading army.

I could be wrong, but I think most Americans realize that the rest of the world (including Europe) pretty much hates us

It's not that at all.

I would boil it down to attitude.

A lot of Americans seem oblivious to what they do in other peoples countries.

They also have a "We are the greatest" attitude as well, which is very contridictory.

It's good to aspire to high ideals but when the US fails to show them and then goes on about how other countries in the world aren't aspiring to their set of rules you just go p1ssing everyone off.

Typedef

Originally posted by bonkey

However, adding QED at the bottom is pointless. You havent proven anything, simply offered another perception of the situation.

I have proven that the US can do as it pleases and does, and will not be held accountable to the world for it's actions, it will call you a terrorist if you try to do that.

Of course it has a point the US does not have to answer to anyone therefore it can make non-thought arguments and give little or no evidence, and wether or not it did make a good argument, it still doesn't matter because no-one can stop the US so anykind of debate on US intentions or actions is a waste of time, no one except the US can enforce their views and opinions so of course the US does not have to respond to logic and rationally argue people around. The Russians and Chinese don't have the power or inclination to stop the US, so until the US goes into decline, the world will have to jump through hoops for US whims, eg the global anti-terrorist alliance, George Bush spelt it out , anyone who is not with us is against us and anyone who is against us is a terrorist, or words to that effect.
Translation, agree with me or find yourself under the sights of the US guns, seems pretty clear to me, the USA is dictating terms to the rest of the world. Now who is the terrorist?

The US could invade Iraq right now without British and French support and no-one could stop them, ergo, the US answers to no-one therefore debate with the US or about the US is subject to US control and is not debate but, merely propaganda an decit dressed up as debate but inreality an appandage of US desire, therefore debate is irrelevant as debate is just an illusion, the US is not obliged to listen to argument one, therefore your opinions my opinions are irrelevant or pointless if you like.

There is a new world order alright. It's called US dictatorship, get used to it, it will be here for a while.

bonkey

Originally posted by Typedef
I have proven that the US can do as it pleases and does, and will not be held accountable to the world for it's actions, it will call you a terrorist if you try to do that.

You are mostly correct about the lack of US "answerability", but you have not proven it. You have deomnstrated that the US is performing questionable actions, and that these actions are not being questioned. This does not prove that the US is not answerable to anyone.

Your main argument in "proving" this appears to be that the US is in violation of numerous UN resolutions. Can we therefore say that anyone in violation of UN resolutions is not answerable to anyone?

The US have never claimed to be "impartial" brokers of peace. They stand for a set of ideals. In brokering peace, they wish to see those ideals advanced. Also, providing Israel with arms does not automatically imply that their peace-making ability is partial. It is entirely possible that there *are* legitimate reasons for supplying Israel arms. However, it is the criticism of the use of arms regardless of those weapons' source that is lacking.

Also, your set of points do not lead to this conclusion when taken together. How, for example, did your point on Palestinian suicide bombers have anything to do with this conclusion?

You're making valid points, dont get me wrong. its just they do not unilaterally support your conclusion, nor do they represent the entire picture.

Maybe my definition of "proof" is skewed somewhat from my maths background. Proof for me is rigid, unequivocal, and does not omit possible mitigating factors. Your "proof" does not meet this requirement.

jc

Typedef

It's a shame such a rigid criteria of proof is not incumbant on the United States when it seeks to kill people in the name of freedom and justice.

If we are to be pedantic however I can "prove" by tacit implication that there is a kind of quasi-imperialistic seperation of the act of the terrorist and the underlying motive and that this seperation is used as a justification to supply arms or to act in a unilateral manner as regards military action.

To my mind this represents a kind of elitist multi-tiered society where the main criteria for being deemed as "right" is your political affiliations not your ideological remit/fortitude as is endowed upon you by the international community at large. This is imperialism or neo-imperialism, these days imperialism does not take the form of old British, French, Spanish imperialism where countries annexed great swathes of the globe, no, these days imperialism is a reference to superpowers ruling you "in effect" from a great height. The invasion and usurpation of countless countries and peoples by the US is to my mind qualification enough of this tacit yet real force.

Imperialists traditionally rationalised their imperialist actions as for example the "white mans burden", these days it's "freedom and justice", but it is the same monster in a different guise. Who is to say I am wrong or right? The US it would seem, so who is to say the US is wrong or right? A self vetting form of justice is the breeding ground of corruption, that is one reason the garda no-longer investigate garda complaints. So to whom does the US answer? The US rules my life in many ways, yet I have never voted for a US politician nor participated in any kind of adequate representative mechanism that would/could provide a representation of this fact, therefore a system of hegemony exists where the few dictate to the many and subjegate the weak for the benefit of the strong.

This is the crux of "our" civilisation after five million years of evolution, the hirearchical nature of "this/our" socitey essentially remains intact, except the strong now tell the weak, this structure does not exist. I beg to differ. I call this dicotomy of logic imperialism, many call it human nature, whatever it is called there exists a swathe, no a vast ocean of evidence to imply tacitly or blatantly to anyone who takes the time to find it. Yes the reality of US foreign policy is for the most part supressed, RTE for example has never given any kind of background to the extreme hatred of the US around the world, no, instead the "misguided" people who perpitrate "terrorist" acts are "mad, evil" or whatever it becomes popular to deem said people at the time, while a vast mechanism of propaganda spits out pro-Amierican and ultimately demi-imperialist tripe day after day qualifying injustice as the exponent of freedom.

Typedef

Also the reality of the Iraeli situation is as I have stated many times the US supplying upwards of 50 billion dollars of military aid, over 19 vetos of Un security council resolutions regarding Israel by the USA, at least 15 other resolutions stifled mostly by US intervention, and millions of Palestinian refugees, pushed off of their land by US weapons and largely US money. Sure the Israeli's drive the tanks but the US pays for and supplies the tanks.

If you are a Jew no matter where in the world you are you can be an Israeli citizen, if you are one of the 4 million Palestinians "displaced" by the expansion of the state of Israel, you do not have this right.

If you are an Israeli settler on land that the UN had demanded you give up for the last 30 years but the US has stopped it you can with 1/10 of the population be grated up to 17 times the rights and access to water as your Palestinian counterparts whose land you are occupying, annexing and setteling illegally.

Now I know the US does not recognise the international ciminal court, but how in the name of god can we non-us-people I mean allow the USA to pick and choose which UN mandates it can act on? One mandate says "sure the US can bomb, maim and kill to it's heart content in Afghanistan", but the US can ignore UN security council resolutions regarding Israel ad-infinitum?

No legitimacy is not a term I would use to describe the US military complex surrounding Israel.

Your disproof of my proof is a pedantic swipe at deflection of the topic, I notice you do not pick up on typo's I have so why make an issue of QED.

I would expect a better standard of debate from a moderator.

bonkey

Originally posted by Typedef

Your disproof of my proof is a pedantic swipe at deflection of the topic, I notice you do not pick up on typo's I have so why make an issue of QED.

I would expect a better standard of debate from a moderator.

Oh give it a rest.

I pointed out that you didnt prove anything, therefore QED is a misnomer. Also, your points do not necessarily have any relevance to your conclusion.

I am pointing out teh flaws in your argument.

If you feel this is pedantic, fair enough.

Also, my moderator status is not dependant on my debating ability....at least not that anyone told me....

jc

Gargoyle

Originally posted by Hobbes
As Wilt Chamberlain once said, "Nobody roots for Goliath."

Well as far as I remember his army did. But then Goliath was a leader of an evil invading army.

Hobbes, I know you're more than intelligent enough to realize that was not meant literally.

Aww, boo-hoo, poor America.

I think you've mistaken me for someone that wants your pity; just to clarify, I don't.

Well, I could be wrong too, but I reckon that - the "everybody hates us", or worse, the "everybody hate us because we're better than them" philosophy - is what cau...<snip>

I think I'd change that to "everyone hates us because they resent the power we have and their philosophy is different than ours". Therefore, if they were in charge of a country with so much power, they would do things differently. So, they believe we should do things differently.

dahamsta

I think I'd change that to "everyone hates us because they resent the power we have and their philosophy is different than ours". Therefore, if they were in charge of a country with so much power, they would do things differently. So, they believe we should do things differently.

And this is another reason I dislike some Americans, the superiority complex.

adam

Gargoyle

Originally posted by dahamsta
I think I'd change that to "everyone hates us because they resent the power we have and their philosophy is different than ours". Therefore, if they were in charge of a country with so much power, they would do things differently. So, they believe we should do things differently.

And this is another reason I dislike some Americans, the superiority complex.

adam

Please explain how this is a superiority complex. The United States has more power than any other country. This is fact few would dispute. If it did not have this power, it would not be the target of so much criticism. Are you saying that citing that fact means I have a superiority complex?

You and many others on these boards would do things differently if you were in control of the power the US possesses. The fact that we do not behave in the way you would have us behave and the fact that you are powerless to alter our policies gives direct rise to your contempt. Am I corrrect, or not? Yes or no will suffice.

Hobbes

If it did not have this power, it would not be the target of so much criticism.

How did it aquire that power though? Maybe that's where the critisim lies?

You and many others on these boards would do things differently if you were in control of the power the US possesses.

You know I would really love to say that isn't so, but then power corrupts. The problem arises when you believe because you have all the power (which the US doesn't) that you's don't have to answer to anyone. Thats the danger.

and the fact that you are powerless to alter our policies gives direct rise to your contempt. Am I corrrect, or not? Yes or no will suffice.

No.

yankinlk

I laugh at my uncanny ability to start a simple (more or less informative post) then go away for three days. When I comeback I find Ive unleashed the crazies from both sides (nice to see you gargoyle)

*sigh* I still find it hard to understand why you folks will believe anything you read on the net if it comes from anywhere and it's anti american - but cant/wont believe anything if its from the mainstream media.

Reminds me of:

Someone you dislike will annoy you with the sound of their chewing,
but someone you care for can drop a bowl of soup in your lap and youll say "no matter"

Hobbes

What mainstream media does dost speak of?

The only one I take with a pinch of salt (in the US) is CNN and Fox. CNN have admitted to actively censoring their stories, and Fox just don't bother doing the simple things like research or knowing what the heck they are talking about.

As for UK based news, just BBC news. Any tabloid press is a joke.

yankinlk

2 posts! i must be insane...

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011211/ts/attack_military_tape_dc_7.html

looks like releasing this tape to the rest of us on wednesday (ohh thats today) so wel shall see, we shall see.

It backs up something i predicted just after sept 11. I always thought the terrorists, whoever were responsible, must have been pleasantly surprised (or possibly "OH shíte, what have we got oursleves into now ?") that the attack went as well as it did and actually collapsed the buildings. So for me it aint much of a shock.

On the same line as the Omagh bombing - I personally believe that was a scréw up as well - it doesnt take much imagination to see that someone parked it down the worng street, used too much bomb, screwed up the timer wrong, and on and on with possibilites.

"Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told a media briefing he would not leap to judgement about the videotape until he had seen multiple translations and connected words with gestures."

if he aint leaping why should we?

Mr.Applepie

I only read some of what has been posted so this is my 2cents on it.

I am definetly someone who believes that the truth lies somewhere in the middle of everything that has been said.

But what worries me is that we have not seen any shred of hard evidence linking OBL with the WTC attacks. The comments on the video say that OBL was pleased with the attacks when he heard about them but so was thousands of other muselims in Palestain and elsewhere. Well thats all i have to say for the mo as i have a law project to do! uh speaking of law what ever happened to "innoncent untill proven guilty" and that "everyone deserves a fair trial"? Are these not motos of the american justice system??

Gargoyle

Originally posted by yankinlk
the crazies from both sides (nice to see you gargoyle)

Hmm...Not quite sure how I should take that one...tut, tut.

dahamsta

Originally posted by Gargoyle
Please explain how this is a superiority complex. The United States has more power than any other country. This is fact few would dispute. If it did not have this power, it would not be the target of so much criticism. Are you saying that citing that fact means I have a superiority complex?

You and many others on these boards would do things differently if you were in control of the power the US possesses. The fact that we do not behave in the way you would have us behave and the fact that you are powerless to alter our policies gives direct rise to your contempt. Am I corrrect, or not? Yes or no will suffice.

I don't answer loaded questions, sorry. I will grant you that the United States has more power than any other country, however I would like to point out that it does not have more power than the rest of the world combined. And this is sadly what the United States is turning it into, "us and them". Of course it's always been like this to a degree - up until a few years ago, "us and them" meant "wonderful patriotic Americans" versus "dirtbag reds under the bed commies". America made the world cringe in fear not at their power, but at their lack of self control - and their superiority complex. It seemed to us that many Americans would prefer to destroy our world - not the Americans world, but our world - rather than concede that the USSR was just as powerful as them, and that Communism and Communists weren't inherently bad. Recently, since the USSR is a nonentity now (by definition), it looked like America was going to transfer its complex onto the "commies" in China, a whole new set of reds under the bed. And then it looked like it was going to be Europe - not even reds this time, but people of culture that they seem averse to for some reason (although they don't appear averse to spending their money over here). What next, the Australians? No, it seems to me now that it's just becoming "America and everyone else". America is the "goody" and everyone else is the "baddy". It would be funny if it wasn't true (in my opinion).

adam

Sharkey

Originally posted by Hobbes
If it did not have this power, it would not be the target of so much criticism.

How did it aquire that power though? Maybe that's where the critisim lies?

Do you mean our economic power or military power?

Our economic power was aquired through lots of hard work that led to lots of wealth creation. Plus we have a legal system that is very protective of individual liberties and property rights. People are lined up around the world to come to this country for economic opportunity and to live in a democratic republic.

Our military power came about due to large investments in training our armed forces better than any other country while supplying these people with the best weapons. Add on to this some respect and the attitude that we cherish such people (and don't see them as expendable commodities) and viola' -- a world class army/navy/airforce/marine fighting force.

The biggest jump in American military power came about due to WWII. Now some on this board have actually criticised this military action (as with every single other military action), but most would state that our involvement in WWI was both justified and that it served a greater good.

So what exactly is your complaint?

dahamsta

I had a big long rant about war and peace and violence and pacificsm, but it rambled and got boring so I threw it out. So I'll Keep It Simple instead:

Our military power came about due to large investments in training our armed forces better than any other country while supplying these people with the best weapons. Add on to this some respect and the attitude that we cherish such people (and don't see them as expendable commodities) and viola' -- a world class army/navy/airforce/marine fighting force.

See, maybe you're being sarcastic, but you say that with a certain sense of pride, whereas I don't see it as something to be proud of. The U.S. government spends billions every year - what am I saying, every week - on arming and training, training and arming, while its people rot and starve in the gutters; and outside hospitals because they can't afford health insurance. I don't see that as something to be proud of, I see it as something to be utterly ashamed of.

In Ireland, our "Air Force" consists of two small jets, painted bright orange so they'll be spotted easily by "the enemy". I'm not even sure if they're armed, but I do know that they don't work half the time, because no-one is qualified to repair them. Some people laugh at our "Air Force", but I tip my hat at them every time they fly over. If there was just one jet, and it had Teletubbys on the side of it, I'd be even more proud.

adam

Sharkey

Originally posted by dahamsta


I will grant you that the United States has more power than any other country, however I would like to point out that it does not have more power than the rest of the world combined.

Certainly.

And this is sadly what the United States is turning it into, "us and them". Of course it's always been like this to a degree - up until a few years ago, "us and them" meant "wonderful patriotic Americans" versus "dirtbag reds under the bed commies".

As an American, I can attest that you exaggerate quite a bit. Americans run the gambit of world views. However, we do have self-interests -- as do all countries.

America made the world cringe in fear not at their power, but at their lack of self control - and their superiority complex.

Examples, please. Certainly Bill Clinton blew up a few things whenever his poll numbers dropped or whenever another scandal arose -- but give specific examples.

It seemed to us that many Americans would prefer to destroy our world - not the Americans world, but our world - rather than concede that the USSR was just as powerful as them,...

Here's some reality -- the USSR was never as powerful as the US (with the exception that it could destroy the globe with nukes) -- not economically and not militarily.

The issue came about as to whether the US could project it's power to aid Western Europe in the case of a Soviet Invasion.

and that Communism and Communists weren't inherently bad.

Communism as an ideal is bad in that it doesn't provide any incentive for people to create wealth. Plus centralized control over resources doesn't work effectively. Communism has created or furthered poverty everywhere its been tried. Period.

All Communist are not bad. Never heard anyone say that and I hate to lump people like that.

Recently, since the USSR is a nonentity now (by definition), it looked like America was going to transfer its complex onto the "commies" in China, a whole new set of reds under the bed.

Hint -- the US and Comnunist China have always had either an adversarial or semi-adversarial relationship. Chinas latest threats to launch a few hot apples at our west coast or invade Taiwan hasn't helped, however.

And then it looked like it was going to be Europe - not even reds this time, but people of culture that they seem averse to for some reason (although they don't appear averse to spending their money over here).

Get real. I'm the first to say that there are major cultural differences b/t the US and different countries in Europe, but to bitch about America's "superiority complex" is absurd compared to the Holier Than Thou attitudes I've heard from most Euros.

By the way -- if you must know, it is MY PERCEPTION that most of Western Europe as a whole is ineffectual militarily -- with the Brits being the exception. Is it a superiority complex that would lead us to believe that most Europen countries have ineffectual militaries?

What next, the Australians?

I've seen the Aussie military and it sucks. Australia is blessed, as is America, by being separated from Europe and Asia with lots of water. The Aussie ecomony also sucks and its government is overly socialist.

No, it seems to me now that it's just becoming "America and everyone else". America is the "goody" and everyone else is the "baddy". It would be funny if it wasn't true (in my opinion).

adam

Well, as I see it -- America has different interest than many Euros. I think that it is fair that the US pursues its interest while the Euros pursue theirs. I don't see this as equating everyone else as a "baddy". On the other hand, just because America doesn't follow every European whim lemming-like into the abyss of bad policies doesn't mean the U.S. is bad or has a "superiority complex". Our judgment just leads us to different conclusions as a nation.

Sharkey

Originally posted by dahamsta
See, maybe you're being sarcastic, but you say that with a certain sense of pride, whereas I don't see it as something to be proud of.

I say it as a matter of fact

The U.S. government spends billions every year - what am I saying, every week - on arming and training, training and arming, while its people rot and starve in the gutters; and outside hospitals because they can't afford health insurance. I don't see that as something to be proud of, I see it as something to be utterly ashamed of.

FYI : There's poverty in every country I've ever visited. If you merely feed the poor and you get more poor. We have various social safety nets in this country, and as far as I can tell our indigent are no worse off than any other.

If you provide opportunity and incentive, then the poor can rise to dignity. If they'd rather continue to do drugs or otherwise suffer due to their own bad choices, then no amount of money will cure this.

By the way -- our healthcare is the best in the world and our poor have access to procedures that the rich in Canada can't get.

My grandmother was a Canadian and was denied cataract surgery as the Canadian gov't deemed that the cost of her surgery couldn't be justified given her then age of 69. My parents brought her to the US and paid for the surgery out-of-pocket and she lived another 20 years having sight that Canada would have denied her.

"Free" healthcare is no good if it isn't available to anyone.

In Ireland, our "Air Force" consists of two small jets, painted bright orange so they'll be spotted easily by "the enemy". I'm not even sure if they're armed, but I do know that they don't work half the time, because no-one is qualified to repair them. Some people laugh at our "Air Force", but I tip my hat at them every time they fly over. If there was just one jet, and it had Teletubbys on the side of it, I'd be even more proud.

Personally, I realize that the size and resources of Ireland limit what Ireland can do outside its borders and I don't think the rest of the world will look to Ireland for military support, but your fighting men and women should be cherished nonetheless.

Typedef

Hey watch Americans ignore actual criticism.

The real reason the US has power is because it has been denying the rights it lectures other countries on for years to people of other countries in the name of freedom and democracy.

example : Pakistan
example : Iraq -turned on saddam after funding him
example : Iran - Got asses kicked , on tv under Carter.
example : Guatemala - CIA overthrew government
example : Grenda - Invaded
example : Chile - CIA supported torture and killing
example : Nicaragua - Invasion
example : Cuba - Attempted overthrow
example : Panama - Occupied
example : Philippines - occupied this one for two years killed 100,000
example : Palestine - Supply Israel with billions in weapons each year
example : Afghanistan - turned on Afghani's after funding

Don't expect the Americans to defned the actions of their country in these countries with any kind of logic if they lower themselves to engaging in debate about the afore mentioned issues, you can be sure the arguments will be much like the US' foreign policy. A smokescreen. Don't expect any kind of rationalisation above non-thought for how it is OK to deny the "rights" of other people in order to "guarantee" those rights and freedoms to the USA.

There is a word for people whose lives and rights are abrogated so that a select few may live in relative elitism, that word is slavery, that is what the US does when it supports dictator X or "terrorist/freedom fighter" Y in order to protect US interests, it makes a another set of people's rights slave to the needs and desires of the US.
Hey American posters don't bother answering any of the arguments I have put forward, regarding Israel or the actions of the CIA in foreign countries or the invasion of a plethora of countries, because your country is just wrong end of story. Actually I have a better idea, why not try and quote things out of context in an attempt to perpetuate the lie that is American foreign policy?

Uh-oh better watch out I don't get labled terrorist for my "THOUGHTCRIME".

Typedef

"Take note post should read"
"USA increases chocolate ration"

DOUBLEPLUSGOOD!

Gargoyle

Originally posted by Typedef


DOUBLEPLUSGOOD!

The caption "insane poster" was never more apt.

Victor

Originally posted by Sharkey
Examples, please. Certainly Bill Clinton blew up a few things whenever his poll numbers dropped or whenever another scandal arose -- but give specific examples.

Hmmm, a few millions tons of bombs dropped in South East Asia during the Vietnam War, may be an overreaction in a 'police action'. 500,000 bullets for every person killed in that war (and something around 2,500,000 people were killed).

Here's some reality -- the USSR was never as powerful as the US (with the exception that it could destroy the globe with nukes) -- not economically and not militarily.

Well they certainly worried Senator McCarthy and in particular presidents Kennedy and Reagan and they had friends and foes the world over. But please remember where the Russians were coming from in 1917 - practically nothing.

Communism as an ideal is bad in that it doesn't provide any incentive for people to create wealth. Plus centralized control over resources doesn't work effectively.

This oversimplifies things. Even today, in financial difficulties, the Russian train system runs on time, as it has for more than 50 years - the same can't be said about the USA. However, I willing admit centralized resources is what built the interstate highway system in the USA, built the Bell phone company, built the first atom bomb and put the first man on the moon. Central control means you can put all your efforts in one direction and avoid duplication, sometimes misguided, but often not and usually with spectacular results. Central control also means that competing infrastructure is not put in place and that competition is based on service and price, not route (as happened to many railways companies in the 19th century and is now affecting many phone companies).

Hint -- the US and Comnunist China have always had either an adversarial or semi-adversarial relationship. Chinas latest threats to launch a few hot apples at our west coast or invade Taiwan hasn't helped, however.

I doubt anyone could throw any apple more than, say, 30 metres. When has China actually overtly threatened the USA physically? Other than when you blew up their Embassy? In reality, China and it's people (please talk to them) are much more interested in feeding, clothing, sheltering and providing for it's people that attacking the USA.

By the way -- if you must know, it is MY PERCEPTION that most of Western Europe as a whole is ineffectual militarily -- with the Brits being the exception. Is it a superiority complex that would lead us to believe that most Europen countries have ineffectual militaries?

Well why does the USA want them to join the latest great 'game' in Central Asia? Last time I checked, several Western European countries had military forces that had even the USSR (and now Russia) worried.

Well, as I see it -- America has different interest than many Euros. [/b]

What are "Euros" (and BTW, it isn't a currency), is this some sort of ignorant insult like "Japs" and "Commies".

---

There seems to be a common theme in a number of recent topics where primarily American posters seems to be of the impression that 'everyone' is against them (both on boards.ie and in the real world, no DeVore don't hit me please, please, PLEASE, NOOOoooo.. ).

All many people really want from the USA is that they act like good neighbours, mend fences, talk to your neighbours, join the residents association. Take the barbed wire and the attack dogs from your front lawn. Turn down your loud radio. Stop stealing peoples apples. Don't set off fireworks in an area where people live. Pay your house maid a decent wage. Do not throw your trash around the playground. When someone sprays graffiti on your wall, don't burn down the first tenement you come across. Keep only enough guns to keep you and yours safe - do not sell them to the neighbourhood kids.

If a man persists in telling people that everyone hates him, then eventually, everyone will.

bonkey

I've moved the Ethnicity / Healthcare stuff to a new thread if anyone is interested in following it up.

The rest of this thread has split into so many different discussions, gradually getting further and further off the original subject that I'm locking it and abonding it.

If anyone wants to pick up on issues from the posts here, please do so by quoting into a new thread with a more relevant subject.

Thanks.

jc