Sinn Fein in Next Government?

mike65

If after the next election Fianna Fail can form a stable
administration only with the help of Sinn Fein (either within or outside the actual government) should FF ask them to?

Mike.

Gargoyle

No. Make a deal with the devil and you're bound to get burned.

gandalf

Well I do think that FF are such a pack of souless whores that they would be prepared to make a deal with as Gargoyle says "the devil" and if this happens it will set Anglo-Irish relations back years.

I hope that the electorate see FF for what they are a uninspired pack of hand me down parish pump politicians and send them packing. Unfortunately if you look around at the alternatives they don't seem much better. Noonan as leader of FG is a disaster, he has no charisma at all, Harney I do think is a good leader but she is really FF in all but name, Quinn I do have some respect for but as Labour are not in a postion to challenge either of the "top" 2 parties in Irish politics at the moment.

Sinn Fein I feel will win probably around 3-4 seats in the next election. Look at the way we have been held to ransom by the 4 independents who are proping up the Government, imagine what will happen if its 4 co-ordinated Sinners, not a nice thought.

Gandalf.

Magwitch

I had been talking with a friend about how SF would enter tentitive talks about the possibility of coalition n the republic, and left it at that. Two weeks later FG issued a statement saying thay would never go into a government with SF, so talks had already been ongoing behind the scenes.

Outside of the D4 set, which often gives us a distorted picture of politics, there is a deep seated anamosity towards SF throughout the country. Not a vocal grouping, but a large and voting one. Many who say they support SF do not in fact vote (seriously, try one if you meet in a pub). They are all bravado and no actual action. The same one that sees no difference between the Official and Provisional IRA.

The older and more devoutly Catholic generation (espacially those with army links in the family going back a few years) still see the IRA as communists, who were preached against from the pulpet of their local church. I cannot see SF in government in this country for another 10 years at least, though at council level they will clean up in poorer Urban areas.

mike65

My own view is that if FF should seek SF help, and I suspect they won't, they would be turned down, whatever about the true level of support for a hardleft party with a paramilitrist aspect I think it would suit Sinn Fein to sit on the oppositition benches looking to pick up further votes among the disafected working class and border country yahoos.

If they were in power however periferally, the failures of
government would surely rub the sheen off thier bright green coat.

Mike.

sceptre

Agree with pretty much all of gandalf's comments

Xterminator

I don't see why an alliance with Sinn Fein is sen as somehow unacceptable?

Are the votes they get any less valid.

Surely we all wanted to see a government in NI that included everyone?

Why then should we isolate them in the South?

It is true they gain a lot of votes from the working class areas. The people of these areas deserve their voice be heard too.

Also the question was should FF ally with them. surley Labour and SF are closer in ideaology, so the question might ask should Labour align themselves with SF, either in our out of govenment.

x

swiss

Originally posted by Xterminator
I don't see why an alliance with Sinn Fein is sen as somehow unacceptable?

Sinn Féin are considered repugnant as a political party and/or as a lobbyist force by a considerable percentage of people in Ireland. With a few small exceptions, no other party can claim this dubious distinction. I distrust SF. I do not wish to see them in power. I believe that their manifesto will ultimately regress Ireland's progress within the EU and within the scope of Anglo-Irish relations.

Originally posted by Xterminator
Are the votes they get any less valid.

People can vote for whomever they wish. However, if that voice is considered one that favors a party that represents views that are retrograde to the nations interests- and if that view is shared by a larger percentage of people then that view must be respected.

By this I mean that should a political party such as SF command a percentage of the vote, then normal democratic considerations would dictate that some of that voice be reflected in overall governmental policy - perhaps in the form of a coalition involving the party in question. However, this is not the case for fringe groups. Why not? A small percentage of people vote for the National Front (a neo-nazi) party. Does this mean that their policies have an input into government. Of course not! It would be against the will of the majority, and any governing party that implements such ill advised policies deserve to be promptly removed from such an onerous position.

Originally posted by Xterminator
It is true they gain a lot of votes from the working class areas. The people of these areas deserve their voice be heard too.

Doubtlessly, yes. I do not believe, however, that SF are best suited to meet those needs. My opinion, in a democratic context, doesn't matter all that much. However, that view is shared by quite a large number of people. Working class communities deserve their say - and to say they squander it by voting for SF may be fastidious, but as yet SF have still to convince me that their 'concern' for such areas is ultimately more than a carefully constructed springboard from which they can furthur their own isolationist policies.

ubb edit

bonkey

Originally posted by swiss

People can vote for whomever they wish. However, if that voice is considered one that favors a party that represents views that are retrograde to the nations interests- and if that view is shared by a larger percentage of people then that view must be respected.

This is the basis of a democracy. If FF (the major player at the moment) truly represent the people who elect them, and if (as you claim) the majority of people find SF repugnant as a party, then it is the responsibility of FF to remain true to the wishes of their voting public. If they choose not to do so, then the voters can feel betrayed, and choose to vote for a different party next time round.

By this I mean that should a political party such as SF command a percentage of the vote, then normal democratic considerations would dictate that some of that voice be reflected in overall governmental policy - perhaps in the form of a coalition involving the party in question. However, this is not the case for fringe groups. Why not? A small percentage of people vote for the National Front (a neo-nazi) party. Does this mean that their policies have an input into government. Of course not! It would be against the will of the majority, and any governing party that implements such ill advised policies deserve to be promptly removed from such an onerous position.

This is complete and utter rubbish. Any individual who is elected to the Dail is entitled to take their seat. The mere act of holding a seat in the Dail is sufficient to ensure that this person will have an input in government.

In times of large majorities, arguably no-one other than the party in power has any influence in the Dail. In this scenario, FG are as powerless as a single-seat party or independant would be, and therefore this scenario is irrelevant.

In more closely-fought scenarios, every single vote in the Dail counts. In such a situation, a single seat held by SF can, and will, carry influence and power. The holder of that single vote will be able to negotiate their vote with both sides.

Working class communities deserve their say - and to say they squander it by voting for SF may be fastidious, but as yet SF have still to convince me that their 'concern' for such areas is ultimately more than a carefully constructed springboard from which they can furthur their own isolationist policies.

In otherwords, what you're really saying is that you disagree idealogically with SFs political standpoint, and therefore want the rest of the world to condemn them?

Look - you can have it one way or the other, but not both. Option 1: they are a bad party because of their terrorist affiliations, which gives you some argument. Option 2: they are a bad party because you dont like their policy, which is completely and utterly irrelevant in a political arena.

By the way, if you go to option 1, I assume you will also condemn any other Irish political party which has come from having terrorist affiliations. Like, say, ummm, FF? Clearly they should be tarred with the same brush and not allowed to have any say in politics either.

Look - there are laws in this nation which decide who is and is not eligible to run for government. Sinn Fein have not made themselves ineligible. If you have a problem with that, then go talk to your TD of choice and ask him to get his party to get the law changed to banm Sinn Fein because (according to you) so many people dont want them.

At the end of the day its simple....you have a voice and a vote. You get to use them. So do people whom you find repulsive. If enough other people find them repulsive, then you dont need to worry - they wont get elected. If enough other people find them attractive, then you have to suffer the fact that you are not god and that these people are as entitled to their opinion as you are to yours. As long as Sinn Fein remain inside the legal boundaries as defined by our laws, they are as entitled to look for and receive votes as any other party.

jc

CiaranC

I live in the Dublin South-West constituency. We have two Sinn Fein councillors here - Sean Crowe in Tallaght South, and Mark Daly in Tallaght Central.

We have consistently had one of the lowest turnouts in local and general elections over the last few years (decades even). Also, this constituency had the strongest no vote in the whole country in the Nice treaty referendum.

Im 23 years old and I have never voted in any election, local or general. Nor can I think of any one of my friends who has ever voted either. Interestingly enough, a lot of people I know voted in the Referenda on Articles 2&3 and on the Nice treaty.

--
British-Irish Agreement Referendum Results
Electorate 76,748
Turnout 40,144
(52.3%)

Votes for 37,475
Votes Against 2,382
--

So hardly a staunch republican constituency then, by any stretch of the imagination.

Sinn Fein will gain a seat in the Dail here in the next general election. Why?

There is practically nothing to choose between the spread of candidates. They are all seen to have ever-so-slightly varying social/economic policies. People seem to think, and I tend to agree, that we might as well just have a single centrist candidate, and forget about the election altogether. There will be no discernable difference to peoples lives wheter FF, FG, Labour or the PDs get in.

Sinn Fein are suddenly affiliated not with a murderous paramilitary organisation, but with a party and IRA leadership that actually seems commited to peace. Couple this with the politcal disillusionment of the Dublin South West electorate and all of a sudden Sein Fein are an acceptable political entity. Also, they appear leftist. Not like the joke that is the Labour party, but really leftist. Im sure you wont be surprised to hear that there are a lot of ordinary working men and women here in Tallaght, they can hardly be said to be represented by the likes of FG or the PDs.

There is nobody else holding the Anti-Nice banner. (Except maybe the greens). This is a huge factor for me. I dont believe the green party will be able to get in and its almost a dead cert that Sinn Fein will get in. I am very Anti-Nice. It is for this reason that I am considering giving my #1 to Sinn Fein. (Only considering mind )

In summation, people dont look at the IRA thing (maybe they should) when they think about voting Sinn Fein. I went to school with Mark Dalys brother, he is a nice guy. Plays GAA and drinks in my local pub. He isnt a middle aged politician with nothing to say. Hes Anti-Nice and so am I.

Id be interested to hear arguments for and against.

swiss

Originally posted by bonkey:
Any individual who is elected to the Dail is entitled to take their seat. The mere act of holding a seat in the Dail is sufficient to ensure that this person will have an input in government.

Not necessarily, IMO. In a finely divided Dáil such as the one we presently have, which forces FF to rely on the support of independants, each and every voice in that Dáil is of great importance. However, to allow small interest groups and political parties to have a large amount of lobbying power by virtue of their holding one or two Dáil seats is ultimately disasterous to democracy IMO. This applies not only to SF but other political parties and lobby groups who manage to obtain a Dáil seat.

Therefore, the onus is on the ruling party to ensure that their own policies and ideologies are not railroaded in an attempt to maintain and consolidate their power. SF and/or other parties are of course entitled to use their power vested in them by the people to furthur their own cause - frankly I would expect no less.

Originally posted by bonkey:
Look - you can have it one way or the other, but not both. Option 1: they are a bad party because of their terrorist affiliations, which gives you some argument. Option 2: they are a bad party because you dont like their policy, which is completely and utterly irrelevant in a political arena

M'kay, perhaps I should backtrack a little here. Can I go for option I and two . My original post did state that my opinion in a democratic context matters little. In relation to option 1 - I've dug up this link which spells out my attitudes and reasonings in a semi-coherent way in relation to their terrorist affiliations. No, I don't like their policy either, although like you said that is not a good enough reason to warrant their expulsion. I'm not disagreeing with you there.

Hrm, I'm being kicked out of this class now. I'll have to continue this later

swiss

Originally posted by CiaranC:
Sinn Fein are suddenly affiliated not with a murderous paramilitary organisation, but with a party and IRA leadership that actually seems commited to peace. Couple this with the politcal disillusionment of the Dublin South West electorate and all of a sudden Sein Fein are an acceptable political entity. Also, they appear leftist. Not like the joke that is the Labour party, but really leftist. Im sure you wont be surprised to hear that there are a lot of ordinary working men and women here in Tallaght, they can hardly be said to be represented by the likes of FG or the PDs.

That pretty much sums up in a nutshell the reason why I think SF appear to be gaining popularity in recent times. Understandable though it may be, especially given (as you mentioned) a climate of political mistrust and a genuine belief that SF are the best party at the moment that can represent the interests of the people I cannot but feel that SF are in no position to best represent those concerns. Explaining exactly why is going to take a long time, and I'm tired, a little hungover and have a lot of work to do (yes, I have a life outside boards - unfortunately ) so I'm going to leave that for another day's work

I feel I need to deal with this point

Originally posted by bonkey:
At the end of the day its simple....you have a voice and a vote. You get to use them. So do people whom you find repulsive. If enough other people find them repulsive, then you dont need to worry - they wont get elected. If enough other people find them attractive, then you have to suffer the fact that you are not god and that these people are as entitled to their opinion as you are to yours. As long as Sinn Fein remain inside the legal boundaries as defined by our laws, they are as entitled to look for and receive votes as any other party.

On this very forum a few days ago, here
I posted this...

Originally posted by me:
People, of course have a right to vote for whomever they please, however I do feel that doing so entails some responsibility - insofar as determining that the party/individual they vote for are those that mirror their views and are prepared to represent those views and policies in an efficient and honorable manner.

I could be completely mistaken about SF. Perhaps they have reformed from their terrorist - *cough* sorry 'freedom fighting' past and become a purely democratic entity that fights for the rights of the people it represents. If this is the case then I could respect them as a political party - even if I would not vote for them because their ideologies are dissimilar to mine. As for what I believe people should do - see above quote.

bonkey

Originally posted by swiss
However, to allow small interest groups and political parties to have a large amount of lobbying power by virtue of their holding one or two Dáil seats is ultimately disasterous to democracy IMO. This applies not only to SF but other political parties and lobby groups who manage to obtain a Dáil seat.

Actually, the problem is not with the independants, but rather with the large parties who will go to extreme ends to "buy" their votes from the indies and small parties.

Look at it this way...if you have an old car worth £500 which you may or may not sell, but someone really really wants the car and is offering £10,000 for it, are you going to refuse?

The problem is not that the indies are asking too much, but that the larger parties are willing to pay the cost in order to have their bill carry or whateever.

I agree it is not good "for democracy", but its a damn sight better than having one major party who decide what goes, and the rest of the Dail just making up the numbers.

I've dug up this link which spells out my attitudes and reasonings in a semi-coherent way in relation to their terrorist affiliations.

You have three choices.

1) Ignore the terrorists, and allow the terrorism to continue
2) Try and root out and destroy the terrorists
3) Acept that they have some form of grievance, and attempt to find a solution.

Options 1 and 2 were tried, and they failed. You are now telling us that option 3 is unacceptable because the "political arm" of the terrorists is affiliated to the terrorists themselves? Exactly how do you propose that we deal with them?

At the end of the day, while terrorism is generally wrong, it is only wrong when the terrorsits lose. Ireland owes its freedom to some extent to terrorist activity against the "unlawful invader" of England, and yet because we ultimately got our freedom for it, we dont see this as a problem.

If the english were to have taken your attitude, then DeV and MC and all the rest woul dnever have been able to even think about free Ireland, because the English woul dnever have dealt with them due to their terrorist affiliations.

Yes, terrorism is wrong. However, as with the US vs Al Qaeda at the moment, the solution ultimately lies in examining why the terrorism takes place and seeing if things need changing - if there is a "valid" reason for the terrorism (I use valid here very loosely).

The reality is that once terrorism has a strong foothold, it is almost impossible to get rid of it without dealing with the terrorists. Telling them "put up your weapons, and trust those people who you say have shafted you for generations to sort it out with out peacefully" is not very encouraging.

The IRA need to be negotiated with. IT will be long, slow, and will involve lots of give and take. Simply saying "we wont talk to you - youre terrorists" is the surest way of getting them to abandon any hope of a peaceful settlement and to return to the bombing.

In the political arena, they will not get votes from terror. They will get democratic votes like anyone else. If enough people support them, then fine. However, making them pariahs because of the terrorist associations is about the surest path I can think of which will get us back to a violent Northern Ireland.

bonkey

I feel my last post needs some clarification, having read the post Swiss was obviously writing at the same time.

I get the impression that the general dislike for Sinn Fein is because of their background (IRA affiliation) as opposed to their political ideals.

Simply put, if the law is willing to allow them to stand as a legitimate party, then their background should not be the issue at stake here.

Unfortunately, it all too often is the issue. People vote for individuals and parties for the strangest reasons - my family always voted X, so I should too, and so on.

Sinn Fein should be judged on their manifesto - their aims and goals - and not on the fact that they are connected to terrorists.

As to whether or not FF (or anyone else) should consider joining with them in government....if you are concerned about it, you should put the question to yor local FF TD when he next comes knocking on your door asking for votes. His response will probably be completely non-comittal and fluffy, meaning that of course FF would, as long as it was the best option available to them as they saw it.

Personally, I think it highly unlikely that anyone would join with them to form a government. Firstly, it would put huge pressure on the situation up North, and secondly, I think SFs policy's are too far out of kilter with the major parties for them to be able to form a working relationship...

jc

Sean

Remember SF was started in the south...
as sinn fein is an all ireland party i think they should be in goverment