newbie question about internet access

Mailman

Hi,

I came accross this site http://www.europeonline.com/ which seems to offer unlimited high bandwidth downloads for 150 Euros on the Astra satellite network. Considering the costs of DSL at present and the monthly bandwidth restriction on DSL this seems like a bargain to me and it adds considerable functionality to my PC that I don't get with DSL e.g. Streaming 2mbps video. When I grasped the potential of this service I nearly pissed myself.

Now I know nothing about satellite TV or anyone who owns a proper satellite system and the last hour surfing has left me none the wiser so I'm turning to a newsgroup that may be able to clear things up for me.

Here's the blurb from the site:
Personal digital satellite dish with a Universal LNB pointed to ASTRA 19.2° East

The satellite dish is an essential element of connecting to the Europe Online service. The dish receives the signals that are being transmitted from the satellite and reflects them to a focal point located at the place where the LNB is mounted.

Thanks to the strong signal of the ASTRA Satellite System, only a small satellite dish (50cm) is required throughout most of Europe to receive the ASTRA digital signal.

.............End of blurb
Right so this means I don't need a receiver? I just need a card in the PC?
Are there any subscriptions payable to Astra or anybody and is the dish cheap? It's multicasting this signal so supposedly nobody can stop me receiving it.

I understand that there are a number of free TV stations at Astra position 28 degrees. Do I need a motor or something to move the dish or just another LNB? If so what do they cost?

Amongst the list of free stations are all the UK terrestrial ones but there is an asteriks beside them on Astra's site saying they're encrypted(but free) or something to that effect. What does that mean and what are the implications of that?

If I got the satellite dish could I ditch NTL completely and partly finace the cost of the hardware through savings there?

I'd be accessing from either Dublin or Offaly so could I get away with a 50cm dish as they mention in their blurb for the 19.2 degree satellite?

Finally, if I do have any money left over after christmas can anyone recommend somewhere I can get the hardware I need cheap/secondhand?

Any help you offer would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Geoffrey.

byte

I am considering getting EON too as it seems a good deal. Currently, if you subscibe, you get a free PC card which makes the deal even better. The card will allow you to watch digital free to air channels on Astra1 (19*E) as well as downloading stuff.

The UK channels at Astra2 (28.8*E) are free in UK and require a smartcard/viewing card to watch them. The PC card with EON doesn't have a card slot. The only way to get all UK terrestrials on satellite is to get a Sky Digibox and UK FTV card.

Also, you still need to use dial-up net access as EON only allows downloads, it can't upload. But, AFAIK, you can connect online, tell EON service what you want downloaded, and disconnect dialup again and let the satellite download away at high speed.

Maybe chernobyl can help out here as he uses it.

rymus

Europe Online doesnt speed up web access (just so ye know before spending) Its only faster for downloading... but hell is it faster.. AAhem anyway...

Just thought I'd let ye in on that pearl of wisdom... I'll get back in my box now

Mailman

Thanks for replies so far.

I knew I'd have to hold on to my Modem. All I can do there is wait for V. 92. I'll can get a V. 92 modem cheaply and hopefully one of the ISPs will upgrade to V. 92 in the near future.

I am still curious as to receiving from both astra positions and the size of dish I need.

I'd really like to be able to get Divx movies and ISO imagesof Linux Distros etc... so this Europe Online service seems ideal.

bkehoe

Note that you can't use any sort of filesharing app. They only have unofficial & unsupported HTTP proxies for normal (i.e. click and download right now) downloading (and any new members can't seem to use these any more). Also, you have to queue files you want to download, and getting them from a ftp server can be hard. The unofficial filefetch program that lets you share your downloads, e.t.c., and receive shared downloads currently works, but the author isn't going to make any more updates, so it could stop working soon.

I myself stopped using EON over 6 months ago, and have moved on to decent isps such as Starspeeder (now dead), and now Xantic that give decent browsing. Satwave has decent downloading, and browsing. Satnode has good downloading, but laggy browsing at peak times.

Links:
www.xanticbroadband.com
www.digio.co.uk
www.satwave.net
www.ipviasat.net (1GB limit!)


irishbyte, that is not correct. No CAM exists to install in a third party receiver. You can get a variety of channels FTA, Sky News, CNN, Shopping chans, etc; there are only a few FTV chans (ones that require a card).

You'll require at least a 60cm; 80cm recommended to use most of the services reliably in all weather.

You talking about dumping NTL for its TV or internet (cable?)?


Brendan

byte

Originally posted by bkehoe


irishbyte, that is not correct. No CAM exists to install in a third party receiver. You can get a variety of channels FTA, Sky News, CNN, Shopping chans, etc; there are only a few FTV chans (ones that require a card).

Brendan

What is not correct? You have stated what I have already said. I said that the PC card doesnt have a smartcard slot (CAM slot)

bkehoe

Not all the channels at 28.*E need a card.

Brendan

Mailman

Thanks, for the info and thanks to the group I'm now just about in a position to make an informed choice as to whether I'll go ahead and get a satellite dish or not.

I was thinking of ditching NTL for TV. I don't have any premium packages and don't particularly want them. I can receive Irish channels reasonably well with an Antenae and only want the quality UK channels.

I found some info. myself at the following location which may be of interest to the rest of you
http://www.esatclear.ie/~lorenzo/dvb/
It contains pictures of DVB cards and adaptors etc...

bkehoe

What channels exactly? Other than Sky news, Euronews,etc, there isn't really any quality chans, unless you love shopping, e.t.c. A CAM will NOT let you decrypt ANY channels that are encrypted at 28.*E.

Brendan

Mailman

Quality Channels such as BBC1, BBC2, ITV, CH4. at 28 degrees free but encrypted I think. If I can't access them then I suppose I'll be stuck with just internet on the dish which still is better than nothing.
FYI Europeonline told me the card they ship in their kit is a Technistat DVB card which doesn't have any digital output on it which is disappointing but if I can save the mpeg2 streams to hard disk then I can get surround sound out through the bus.

byte

Originally posted by bkehoe
Not all the channels at 28.*E need a card.

Brendan

Yes. When I said "UK channels" I should have been more specific and said "UK Terrestrial channels" which do need a card. Sorry for that!

jmcc

Originally posted by bkehoe
irishbyte, that is not correct. No CAM exists to install in a third party receiver. You can get a variety of channels FTA, Sky News, CNN, Shopping chans, etc; there are only a few FTV chans (ones that require a card).

Your information on third party CAMs is not exactly correct Brendan. While there is no marketed third party CAM for the Sky channels (I think) there are other CAMs for other services. Basically each provider uses its own CAM to guarantee its part of the set top box. Sky really doesn't want to share. The Hauppauge DVBS card has an interface for an add-on CAM which can be bought over the counter.

If I remember the DVB specs, the CAM is really a PCMCIA card with a card reader and some electronics. It is not that complex a piece of electronics/software and some software emulations are available though you would still need the card or a card emulator running on the PC. The stuff that was being discussed on one mailing list (the Linux DVB list) used the Hauppauge DVBS card which has an interface for a CAM. Basically it is a question of allowing the right data to get to the smartcard and the right data to get back from the smartcard.

You'll require at least a 60cm; 80cm recommended to use most of the services reliably in all weather.

While 65cm may be ok on ASTRA at 19.2E, the other services will require a dish bigger than 80 cm for reliable operation (ideally better than 90cm).

Setting up dishes (even two way systems) is actually a lot simpler than people make out, especially when you are going for a single satellite. The best way is to use a known transponder/channel to lock up with and then tweak to get it right. Very few systems require the use of a spectrum analyser to set up. Small domestic dishes actually have a fairly wide beamwidth compared to the larger ones. Hell you can use a dustbin lid if you really know what you are doing.

Regards...jmcc

bkehoe

jmcc, of course there are other cams! Lots more to be exact. I was referring to 28*E, which he asked about. But other than a Czech transponder on Eurobird using Cryptoworks (which I doubt he wants to get), there is no CAM he can get for Videoguard. NDS actually own the rights to it.


I've used every service available to consumers in Europe with a 60cm to see if they'd work (Satnode, EON, Xantic, Satwave, Starspeeder, etc), and they do, and to allow a margin for weather, 80cm is perfect. Sky give 60cm dishes for digital in Ireland, yet 43cm works fine; just being sure that the service won't suffer from dropouts.

Brendan

jmcc

Originally posted by bkehoe
(which I doubt he wants to get), there is no CAM he can get for Videoguard. NDS actually own the rights to it.

I am well aware of that. In another lifetime the people in NDS used to get very upset (even more than the technology journalists do) with me for identifying weaknesses in their conditional access systems. But CAMs are not that complex and it would not be impossible to see a third party CAM for VideoGuard if there was a third party smartcard. Sky has not exhausted its local (.uk/.ie) market yet and as such does not seem to view the multi-CAM boxes as being a significant part of the market. The fact that the Sky package is on 28E means that it more or less has the satellite to itself and subscribers tend to be statisfied with that. Essentially it is possible to get the computer to work as a CAM and indeed connect a smartcard via the serial or parallel port but this would be getting way beyond the average user and really is not worth the time or effort since a legitimate Sky card is required. However for the less secure systems, it would be possible to have a smartcard emulator and an CAM emulator running on the same PC as the DVBS card. This is of course highly developmental and also illegal.

I've used every service available to consumers in Europe with a 60cm to see if they'd work (Satnode, EON, Xantic, Satwave, Starspeeder, etc), and they do, and to allow a margin for weather, 80cm is perfect. Sky give 60cm dishes for digital in Ireland, yet 43cm works fine; just being sure that the service won't suffer from dropouts.

The off ASTRA services are the trickiest ones as the footprint of the transponders is not spotted/centred within a few hundred miles of the SE of Ireland whereas the ASTRA at 28 (the transponders used for Sky) are optimised for this region. An 80cm offset is probably good enough but the quality of manufacture can vary considerably. The other factor is that the published footprints for transponders can actually vary over the lifetime of the satellite so it is always better to have that little bit of an edge. With the extra gain provided by the larger dish it is also possible to mount another LNB so that more than one satellite can be received from the same dish. With the 80 or 90cm dish it could be possible to receive the OpenSky service via Eutelsat at 7E and also the ASTRA 19.2E services though it could be messy considering there are birds at 16/13/10. The 60-65cm is probably ok for most of the year on ASTRA 19.2E though the one problem with such small dishes is that the mount is often badly designed. (The 80/90cms tend to be slightly better in design as the dish/wind area is bigger.) In fluctuating winds (especially around the equinox periods) it can begin to oscillate the dish and can actually shake the nuts and bolts loose. In effect, the dish will be moving on and off satellite rapidly - it will cause blocking on a picture but the data reception will be badly affected especially if it is a multicast download on EON. But with the low price of dishes/LNB's it is probably easier to have a separate dish/LNB for each satellite.

Regards...jmcc

chernobyl

CAM emulation is abviously not that difficult, just look at the Humax IRCI 5400 and even the "Z" model, even with is limited storage space and mediocre procesing power, it can emulate 4/5 different encryption systems, although some would say only 4 as betacrypt is only a slight variation of Irdeto.

Use the latest +CAM 3.2 patch, lots of fun.