Sexism

Most Wanted

Hey all,

right i found these quotes,and i want to know what you's think off them.


"The female is a female by virtue of a certain lack of qualities"

by Aristotle

"Women should remain at home,keep house, bear and bring up children"

by Martin Luther

"A MAN neither consult women about, nor trust them with, serious matters"

by The Earl of Chesterfield

"What a misfortune it is to be a woman"

by Soren Kierkegaard.

WhiteWashMan

in what context?

as they sit on their, own they are a list of mysoganistic quotes which have very little relevence to todays thinking.

why do you ask?

Karl Hungus

Here's the way I see it...

We're all concieved as female, up until a certain point of our development in the womb, do some of us become men.

Sexism is pointless...

Manach

Some quotes from the philospher I try not to listen to Nietzsche:
"Women, God's 2nd mistake"
"Ah, women. They make the highs higher and the lows more frequent."

neuro-praxis

"Educating a woman is like giving a knife to a monkey."

Sexism isn't a very controversial subject when you just quote some random folks.

The reality of it goes beyond that.

However, I experience sexism on subconscious levels on a daily basis, and in more obvious ways in the workplace; but it'll change, eventually. At least I believe it will.

Doc

I my experience the most sexist people are women they constantly say things like they cant do this or that because they are a girl.
Now I know this is by and large just trying to manipulate us superior;) males into doing things for them but if you don't want us to say it don't say it yourselves.

neuro-praxis

I can only presume you are not addressing me; I certainly never have claimed to be unable to do something because of my gender.

Doc

No nero I wasn't talking about you as I don't think we have ever meet.

BUT can you say hand on hart that you have never asked a man to do something for you that you could have done yourself, just because he was a man and you where a woman (i.e. lifting up boxes, pushing a car, going to the shops)?

There would be no shame in it if you did as the man you got to do it would be the stupid one but even if you haven't I'm sure you know girls who do this. I know quite a lot that do I work with a couple and go out with one.

In work they ask me to move barrels and bring in crates and say things like "Look at this I'm the only woman working and I'm the one moving the barrels" if they have to do it, implying that as a man I should be doing it.

Well I say if you want equality you cant pick when you want to be equal and when you don't.

I realise non of this may apply to you Nero-Praxis but dose any of what I'm saying ring true at all?

WhiteWashMan

i think there is a big difference between being sexist and using your gender to its advantages.
if people wish to look upon women as the fairer sex. softer gentler or more caring, then would you say that is sexist?
i wouldnt.
i would say that 'she is a women therefore she should cook' is sexist.
there is a difference.

as for your reference to lifting boxes, erm, men are physically stronger, and you should never lift more than you feel comfortable with. if i was with a woman who was stronger than me and i couldnt life something i would have no hesitation in asking for help. course, thats not going to happen, but its just an example

Xterminator

I think you missed the point that Doc was trying to make.

It is that some women will want equality when it suits them.

For example, when I worked in a fast food resturant, most of the girls would not put away the deliveries

They expected that the lads working there wold look after that kind of work, while both lads and girls would be expected to do all other jobs.
Some of the deliveries were heavy, eg. boxes of chips, but some were not, eg boxes of packaging etc. Nevertheles the girls were not prepared to carry boxes up the stairs, and put them away etc.

Now in that situation, I dont think that is fair. I don't belive that you can claim equal pay, but not accept that you can be asked to do all the tasks.

Another example is if it seems to be okay to have a car sticker slagging men (i've seen different ones), but would it be acceptable to have a car sticker saying how women can't drive, or something like that?

In advertising on TV, it is acceptable to portray a man as stupid, but imagine the complaints if the 'spirito de punto'ads were turned around.

X

Doc

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
i think there is a big difference between being sexist and using your gender to its advantages.
if people wish to look upon women as the fairer sex. softer gentler or more caring, then would you say that is sexist?
i wouldnt.

Well yes I would. Now don't get me wrong I do think of women as the fairer sex but if you are going to label one sex as softer, gentler and more caring than another then that is sexist.

You say women are softer and more gentle then men? That would seem to indicate they would be better at looking after children then men. This I know may not be what you meant but when you generalise for one thing...

i would say that 'she is a women therefore she should cook' is sexist.
there is a difference.

Now I am not apposed to a woman being feminine but what I am apposed to is that if I am paid to do the same job as a woman for the same pay (as it should be). Then I expect that I should not be expected to do any work that the other is not just as a woman would expect the same from me.

as for your reference to lifting boxes, erm, men are physically stronger, and you should never lift more than you feel comfortable with. if i was with a woman who was stronger than me and i couldnt life something i would have no hesitation in asking for help.

What I was saying in my post was that the woman I worked with was more than capable of carrying the crates or moving the barrels but because it was manual labour expected one of her male workmates to do it.

Women do this all the time and if they want total equality then must except total equality.


P.S. I realy hate doing this explaining a previous post thing I had thought my post was clear!

P.P.S. Sorry that p.s. sounds a bit b!tchy its not meant to.

Xterminator can type faster then me

Bard

Originally posted by Xterminator


In advertising on TV, it is acceptable to portray a man as stupid, but imagine the complaints if the 'spirito de punto'ads were turned around.

X

"PH33R TEH GURLY BUTTON!", as someone said to me, ... some time.

Evil Phil

I think the ads on telly just reflect the spending power of women as a group. I'm not sure why they're have to be male bashing. I do know more sexist women than men though. Sexist in the sense of anti-male as apposed anti-female. The thing that really annoys me about sexism is if you disagree with a women on a point that is only slightly touching on a feminist issue, and she assumes the only reason for this is because you have a problem with women, can't handle the strong independent type yadda yadda yadda.

Still it's better than the 'For men who dare to care' ad, Nivea I think :rolleyes:

mike65

Re the ads- Who rembers that Its A Crime To Hit A Woman
radio campaign from a while back?
No mention of us blokes of course!

As for womens buying power, on Pat Kennys' prog today
it was stated women are responsible for 85% of purchasing
power in the US, and theres' no reason to think its much different here. Thats why the ads are aimed at wimmin.

Mike.

pertinax

the most sexist advert in the media is the "slow down boys" puke.
I am an adult, I am a male, i am young and I am a dangerous driver and im most definately a boy.
And im not in the least quicker to decry anti male sexism than female.

Calman

Try to be unbiased (as it is possible to be) when answering this one:
What is the more intelligent gender: male or female?

Karl Hungus

An intresting point was brought up there about hitting women...

Thankfully I've not got into any scuffles with girls... But, I would ask...

Would you people say that under some circumstances it would be ok? Or that it is a total no-no?
I mean, with sexual equality in mind:
Lets say, some venamous tart slaps you, would you slap her back?
Or say, said vemamous tart gets jealous and attacks your girlfriend? Would you clock her one?

Here's where a lot of this equal rights might come a little undone...

Of course, I'm not talking about the domestic wife-beating type things... We all know thats wrong... But, in said situations?
Would you?

TwoShedsJackson

For self-defence or if someone attacks your girlfriend or mate or whoever, it is ok to fight back, why shouldn't it be?

Equal rights for women should mean equal, not 'equal but women are allowed hit men whenever they like without retaliation if they are in the wrong'.

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Calman
Try to be unbiased (as it is possible to be) when answering this one:
What is the more intelligent gender: male or female?

what has intelligence got to do with it?
so if one gender was slightly less bright than the other, and theres no evidence that there is or isnt, then what does that mean?

Well yes I would. Now don't get me wrong I do think of women as the fairer sex but if you are going to label one sex as softer, gentler and more caring than another then that is sexist.

no, theres a difference between attitude and characteristics.
because i think of women as softer or whatever, doesnt mean im being sexist. its a character trait. now if i said women shouldnt leave the kitchen then thats an aattitude and that is sexist

as for the thing about children im not sure where youre coming from mate!
no idea. who said anything about looking after children

the women in your post are taking advantage of how you view them. if you let them get away with not doing their work, then amte, thats your problem. maybe you need to learn to stand up for your rights and not worry about getting on the 'bad side' of a couple of immature girls...

also, i dont think there is any need to bring in examples of puntos etc. these are tongue in cheek adverts. hardly sexist.
maybe someone should put a a dictionary definition. but to me sexism means a derogartory remark or action about a member of the opposite sex.

WhiteWashMan

and apart from self defence, then no i wouldnt hit a woman. in the same way i wouldnt hit a bloke.

adnans

if a "tart" starts slapping you or your woman, you should immediately get those talons out of harm's way. after that, some kind of a drug or drink to calm her over while you make a quick exit to safety.

there is no excuse at all for a man to hit a woman, women hitting women on the other hand?? thats for them to decide.

adnans

Doc

WWM you are a very frustrating person to try and put a point across too.
I'm not going to go over my post a second time as its perfectly obvious you didn't read it properly in the first place or chose to ignore the parts you disagreed with.


As for hitting a woman no I would never do it.
I am physically stronger than most women and could badly hurt a woman if I was to hit them.
In the same way I would not hit a man who was obviously weaker then me it is pointless and stupid when you can in most cases restrain the person physically without hitting them.

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Doc
WWM you are a very frustrating person to try and put a point across too.
I'm not going to go over my post a second time as its perfectly obvious you didn't read it properly in the first place or chose to ignore the parts you disagreed with.
.

to be honest i may be an annoyint person, however, i am intelligent to read and understand a persons position if the point it out clearly. i would suggest then that you havent done so.

you have mearly pointed out that you think that women are more sexist because they dont/wont do things that they are capable of doing and ask for the help of others. in my book thats just lazy.

apart from that, what are you saying?
youve disagreed with a few of my points, so ive posted again what i mean hopefully making it clearer that theres a difference between sexist and how each gender is basically viewed. women viewed as being more clever, softer and more caring is not sexist.
in the same way that men being viewed as stronger, more closed off and stubborn. these are just traits for the general gender. its not sexist. inthe same way that if someone is black i go and say, oh look, that person is black. its hardly racist?

Doc

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan

you have mearly pointed out that you think that women are more sexist because they dont/wont do things that they are capable of doing and ask for the help of others. in my book thats just lazy.

NO I pointed out women can be sexist by saying that lifting and other physical tasks are mens work. They don't ask other girls to do it. If a man said that it was a woman's job to do something he would be called a sexist pig.

men being viewed as stronger, more closed off and stubborn.

women viewed as being more clever, softer and more caring is not sexist.

Yes it is sexist!!!!
It is the essence of sexism to say one sex is more clever more caring more stubborn or more of anything then the other. As individuals some women may be more caring etc. then some men but to say that of woman in general IS SEXIST!

to be honest i may be an annoyint person, however, i am intelligent to read and understand a persons position if the point it out clearly.

Apparently not. Xterminator got it first time so the point must have been clear. If after explaining it to you yet agen you still don't understand then I'm sorry you can't be helped

i would suggest then that you havent done so.

I have read and understood you post I happen to think your wrong but I still understood.

neuro-praxis

I am five feet, ten and a half inches tall and quite strong. So no, I don't ask men to do physical labour tasks for me, and I do my own DIY aswell. It's hardly something to be applauded; I don't even notice these issues.

Granted, my bf is stronger than I am, and if I needed help, I would have no qualms about asking. Why shouldn't I ask for help?! Men are generally more capable of physical labour than women and that's a simple fact - nothing for women to be ashamed of.

I understand the double standard issue though. Some women want all of their rights, plus the advantages of having men take care of the more tasteless chores - such as cleaning out the drains.

I have so much to say on this issue, but it's safer not to. I'm not a feminist, I believe in equality.

Thanks go to Pankhurst and all the rest of them.

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Doc
[B

NO I pointed out women can be sexist by saying that lifting and other physical tasks are mens work. They don't ask other girls to do it. If a man said that it was a woman's job to do something he would be called a sexist pig. [/B]

again, i say tell em to bugger of and dont be lazy.

Originally posted by Doc



Yes it is sexist!!!!
It is the essence of sexism to say one sex is more clever more caring more stubborn or more of anything then the other. As individuals some women may be more caring etc. then some men but to say that of woman in general IS SEXIST!

.

no! its not!
dont you understand?
ok, lets put it into really crude terms here.
women have a vagina.
is that sexist. no. its a characteristic of the female body.

men have a penis.
is that sexist? no its a trait of the male gender.

ok, now lets say that the trait isnt a physical trait, but a general characteristic. has it turned into a sexest thing yet? no. the answer is no.
is this getting through.

the difference is in the attitude. you must be very passionate about your sexism views if you truely cannot see that.

Originally posted by Doc


Apparently not. Xterminator got it first time so the point must have been clear. If after explaining it to you yet agen you still don't understand then I'm sorry you can't be helped

.

ok, on this point im still not sure what you are going on about??????????
i have made no other references to other points youve brought up. i havent said they were wrong or right, you are the one who keeps telling me i am wrong for disagreeing with some points youve brought up.
in fact you even tried to tell me that women were better than men at looking after children because i said a characteristic of women is that the are more caring.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
im sorry, i dont understand i need to be helped.
oh hold on you still havent explained it.
nothing to explain i say. talking rubbish

Originally posted by Doc
[BI have read and understood you post I happen to think your wrong but I still understood. [/B]

maybe you do understand me, but you have yet to show that youve understood what ive said.
you keep talking about someone not lifting boxes, im trying to have a bit of a broader discussion on what actually constitutes sexism. you seem to think its any general reference to a gender.

in fact, neuro has just said something i was talking about....

Granted, my bf is stronger than I am, and if I needed help, I would have no qualms about asking. Why shouldn't I ask for help?! Men are generally more capable of physical labour than women and that's a simple fact - nothing for women to be ashamed of.

so shes just said something sexist by admiting men are generally more capable of physical labour. but by your own admission, thats sexist. i dont think thats sexist. i think shes right.
how can a generalisation about men that is true be considered sexist in that context? how? how?

next time you are sick, and you mother or your girlfriend or your wife is looking after you and bringing you lucozade in bed, i want you to get up, tell her not do it, because apparently saying women are caring is sexist and you wouldnt want your loved one to be patronised for fulfilling sexist roles, now would you?

there is equality.
there is political correctness.

and then there is common sense.

mike65

Skipping through this thread I think I see just one post by
a female member so how many women are on this board anyway?
I suspect not many as the distaff side seem to have better things to do on the whole...

All girlies sign in below please!

Mike.

pepperkin

Welp, I'm a 'girlie', Mike

Ok, I admit it! I am guilty guilty guilty! I have a twisted sense of humour tho.
I have, at times, been faced with a project I could not undertake alone. Now, I'm 4'10" and 100 lbs soaking wet...

And if there is a gent nearby, I have been known to adopt (very
obviously and exaggeratedly) a "Oh, please sir, help me, I'm just a woman and I can't do this!" and then I laugh and I help out as much as I can, now that I have made token references to idiot women who say these things and really believe it.

Usually, tho, I stick with the tried and true "You're bigger than me." Since I can say this to some 2nd graders...well, never mind that.

What is my view on feminism, sexism, and equality? I agree with the others...if you bloody well want something, act like it, and don't pick and choose when to enact or hide from these rights you scream for. Secondly, accept gender differences (differences, not referring to anyone or anything being superior/inferior) as pretty much a given but also keep in mind that we're all individuals (except for the guy in The Life Of Brian, who says he's not.)

Thirdly, keep a sense of humour about it. It's funny as hell to see the same woman who rants about sex in the media being a bad influence as she runs around in a tube top with no bra and stretch pants and a bad makeup job under frizzy permed hair!

Sometimes, you just have to shake your head, keep in mind that people are by nature contradictory and insane, and go on with your day.

Just my two cents

pepperkin

koneko

I'm a chick too. I didn't reply to this threat cos it's pointless.
Women make sexist comments, men make sexist comments, why say either? *People* make sexist comments. That's not determined by gender, but by personality.

I lift things myself, I do my own handy-work. If I can't do something, I'll ask someone to help. Whoever is there and can do it. I won't ask the frail little woman, as much as I won't ask the weedy little guy that calls in sick every other day. I judge people by their personalities and things they do. Not by what gender they are and what colour their skin is. Sexism is so utterly pointless, and won't help you get dates, heh.

Victor

Ok, lots of men feel that women are challenging their roles. This is probably true, but look at where the women are coming from historically (hey, or just look at say Afghanistan today). All I'm asking is that people be nice to each other.

Originally posted by mike65
All girlies sign in below please!

Not very helpful ....

Originally posted by koneko
I'm a chick too. I didn't reply to this threat cos it's pointless.
Women make sexist comments, men make sexist comments, why say either? *People* make sexist comments. That's not determined by gender, but by personality.

Some people would consider calling yourself a "chick" offensive to "geeks". Why couldn't you just say you were a woman (if you had to mention your gender at all).

I think everyone is sexist to some degree or other. I prefer being social with women and doing 'men' stuff with men. I hate the way it's impossible to talk to many women in, say, a bar. I also hate the way too many guys in bars come across as intoxicated, footy-obsessed, 'red-blooded hetro' sex machines. Whats wrong with just being nice to people? Don't call me nieve, but both sides need to work on it.

Brown Eyes

Enough of the "I'm not a feminist but...." rhetoric.

If you believe in equality between the sexes, then you are a feminist.

Why do you consider feminism a dirty word?

koneko

Well because someone asked is there any women on the boards, so i replied? i don't take offense to the wordt chick, hence my use of that word. I wouldn't think I have to be politcally correct all the time and describe myself as a woman instead of a girl, or chick.

I agree with you though, we can't we all just get along Both sides have to work on it, there's no reason to point the finger of blame and make things worse, just get along, men and women complement eachother.

mike65

Victor,

I was being "humourous" when I invoked "girlies", perhapes I should have included a for the sensitive....Koneko seemed
to understand. Sometimes blokes are the worst kind of
Feminists.

Mike.

"Nudge, nudge, wink wink, youknowwhatImean? eh? eh?"

Monkey

"Here's the way I see it...

We're all concieved as female, up until a certain point of our development in the womb, do some of us become men."

What planet are you from ? That's not true, a sperm cell contains either an X or Y chromosome. If a sperm cell with an X chromosome fertilizes an egg then the offspring is female if the sperm cell has a Y chromosome it's gonna be male. Gender is determined at fertilization, I'm afraid.

Monkey

"women viewed as being more clever, softer and more caring is not sexist." - yes it is it's sexist against men

it implies that man are stupider and less caring.

Doc

Originally posted by Monkey
"women viewed as being more clever, softer and more caring is not sexist." - yes it is it's sexist against men

it implies that man are stupider and less caring.

Thank you my point exactly!

WhiteWashMan

Insult deleted.

neuro-praxis

Originally posted by Brown Eyes
Enough of the "I'm not a feminist but...." rhetoric.

If you believe in equality between the sexes, then you are a feminist.

Why do you consider feminism a dirty word?

I don't consider feminism to be a dirty word. However, I dislike the connotations that go along with the term. Have you ever read any feminist literature? The likes of Marylin French (The Women's Room author) who have had difficult experiences with men make claims such as, "All men are rapists and that's all there is to it," and "Man-hating is a viable political stance because it's necessary that the oppressed hate their oppressors in order to be able to break free." Et cetera et cetera et cetera.

Personally, I have problems with such statements. Have you ever read feminist criticisms of famous plays and novels? They're utterly bizarre. And while there is a hint of truth in all these wmen say, it is a right wing and extremist approach to life to be a feminist.

And whilst I believe in sticking to your guns if you are passionate about something (as most people on here are aware I'm one of those dratted Jesus freaks ) I feel that feminism at times can be a little self-delusive, hypocritical and limiting.

For example, many feminists tell me that I am oppressive to women because I am pro-life. I resent this wholeheartedly. I try to live my life as honestly and righteously as I can, and I feel that I do my bit for womankind purely by being a woman who lives productively.

So I disagree fully - equality between the sexes is not equal to feminism. Feminism seems to me to need to include a superior attitude to men. Thus removing equality.

I spent my summer working with a company where all the women (without exception) would sit around and b!tch about how bad men are. This is such bull and I'm sick of it. The majority of the people closest to me are men and they are terrific.

I would pay homage to the women who fought for my rights though - as I mentioned in my last post. Those suffragettes were intensely admirable, tough and determined. My admiration of these people also doesn't make me a feminist. How dare you insist that I label myself?

And by the way, I never said, "I'm not a feminist but", I said, "I'm not a feminist, I believe in equality."

Monkey

I don't see why people refer to themselves as "feminists" any more than i see need for me to refer to myself as a "masculinist" surley a better name would refer to. I think saying someone believes in sexual equality would be more apt. It apllies to men and women and doesn't make an issue of gender

i find some people who claim to be feminists can at times be hypocrits - they don't believe in equality, they believe in inverting the discrimination.

Brown Eyes

I'm a feminist, I'm a feminist because I believe in equality of the sexes. I believe there isn't equality of the sexes at the moment, so feminism does not equate with masculism, although there are issues where men need to advance their rights, in the family courts for example.

We have common ground in our basic premise - men and women should have equal rights, resources and responsibilities. I differ radically from Neuro Praxis on the pro-life / pro-choice issue, but thats OK, we can still both be feminists. I have read much feminist literature, some of which is twaddle, some of which I find relevant and true. But I don't need to have read this literature to be a feminist, its not about being intelligent, educated or articulate.

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by neuro-praxis


I don't consider feminism to be a dirty word. However, I dislike the connotations that go along with the term. Have you ever read any feminist literature? The likes of Marylin French (The Women's Room author) who have had difficult experiences with men make claims such as, "All men are rapists and that's all there is to it," and "Man-hating is a viable political stance because it's necessary that the oppressed hate their oppressors in order to be able to break free." Et cetera et cetera et cetera.

well, she was raped at knife point.
it does take the edge of for some people...
on the other hand, not all her experiences were bad. its been a long time since i read it and to be honest i think i was going through a stage where i would get up at the crack of dawn if you will, so the moral of the story passed me by. but if i remember correctly she didnt ebd up a man hater. just closed of to mankind in general
however, feminist literature such as the silly germaine greer woman on the other hand are deffinately full of the man hating stuff. having read some of her stuff on pornography, she is convinced that a men are only interested how much they can degrade and hate and hurt and abuse women.
well, im glad shes got me figured out.
sure i like a good romp in the hay, but erm, i'll have to make up an excuse as to why i havent raped anyone yet.
it is not healthy stuff and this is what is usually stereotyped as 'a feminist view'
yes it is, but its one view point. there are many.
just wearing a dress is considered feminine and surely must equate to something similar (unless i guess its for one of THOSE reasons )

Originally posted by neuro-praxis
Personally, I have problems with such statements. Have you ever read feminist criticisms of famous plays and novels? They're utterly bizarre. And while there is a hint of truth in all these wmen say, it is a right wing and extremist approach to life to be a feminist.."

again, outrageously stereotyped stuff. and yes, very bizarre!
aparently everything is phalic and aimed at vaginal abuse (?!)

Originally posted by neuro-praxis

And whilst I believe in sticking to your guns if you are passionate about something (as most people on here are aware I'm one of those dratted Jesus freaks ) I feel that feminism at times can be a little self-delusive, hypocritical and limiting.

but......
youre a woman. its in your genes to be hypocritical and self deluding

Originally posted by neuro-praxis
For example, many feminists tell me that I am oppressive to women because I am pro-life. I resent this wholeheartedly. I try to live my life as honestly and righteously as I can, and I feel that I do my bit for womankind purely by being a woman who lives productively.
."

whats pro life got to do with being a feminist?
its a moral stand point, not a gender issue?

Originally posted by neuro-praxis

as most people on here are aware I'm one of those dratted Jesus freaks ."

dear jesus no!!!!! a jesus freaking feminist! ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

does that mean excelsior is your b1tch?

Originally posted by neuro-praxis


And by the way, I never said, "I'm not a feminist but", I said, "I'm not a feminist, I believe in equality."

you go gurl....

i find some people who claim to be feminists can at times be hypocrits - they don't believe in equality, they believe in inverting the discrimination.

excellent.
this is a good point.
this would be what most people, well, men would see as the typical meaning or association with feminism.
being a feminist is not an issue.
maybe its time that the general public was educated as to the meaning of feminism?
but again it brings me back to viewpoints?
like any idea it came only be convayed how you see it.
take religion. same thing. how can you hope to understand religion when there so many points of view on offer by so many people.

I'm a feminist, I'm a feminist because I believe in equality of the sexes. I believe there isn't equality of the sexes at the moment, so feminism does not equate with masculism, although there are issues where men need to advance their rights, in the family courts for example.

We have common ground in our basic premise - men and women should have equal rights, resources and responsibilities. I differ radically from Neuro Praxis on the pro-life / pro-choice issue, but thats OK, we can still both be feminists. I have read much feminist literature, some of which is twaddle, some of which I find relevant and true. But I don't need to have read this literature to be a feminist, its not about being intelligent, educated or articulate.

no, but it helps.
some authors think that by using big words and complicated sentences that other women will understand in the hope that people will think they are more intelligent.
easy sentences are understood better.
its a fact, not a slogan

anyway, i think there should be more feminists who are lesbians and make videos in my front living room.
but thats a personal thing and is not the typical viewpoint

come to think of it, i dont suppoer it really matters if they are feminists.
my god!
germain greer was right!

aaaaaaggggghhhhhhh!

neuro-praxis

Originally posted by Brown Eyes
I'm a feminist, I'm a feminist because I believe in equality of the sexes.

My experience of feminism is not that it promotes equality, but that it promotes male-bashing. I am not a feminist for precisely the reasons that you are. This said, it doesn't mean that I don't understand your sentiments. I just disagree on a couple of fundamental details. I don't believe that to remove oneself from labelled social groups constitutes a "tired rhetoric".

A note to WhiteWashMan; you are confusing Marilyn French the woman with the character in her book "The Women's Room". It's not an autobiography. And yes, Excelsior is, naturally, my b!tch.

Originally posted by Brown Eyes
But I don't need to have read this literature to be a feminist, its not about being intelligent, educated or articulate.

Actually, I think that all people, if the facilities are available to them, have a responsibility to be as well-informed as possible. If you are going to declare yourself anything, then surely you should know what ideals you are committing yourself to?

Brown Eyes

My experience of feminism is not that it promotes equality, but that it promotes male-bashing

Aha, so your experience of feminism is angry bra-burning women, man-hating lesbians, political protesters who just make trouble; women who bitch about men, women who aren't tolerant, rational, reasonable etc. Hey I've met lots of women like that too.

The majority of the people closest to me are men and they are terrific.

I love men too, so much so that I married one. Whats that got to do with it?

A feminist is someone who sees the gender systems currently in operation (in our culture and in other cultures) as structured by a basic binary opposition--masculine/feminine--in which one term, masculine, is always privileged over the other term, and that this privileging has had the direct effect of enabling men to occupy positions of social power more often than women.

A feminist thinks this is wrong, and should be changed.

Do you think female circumcision (FGM) is a barbaric practice used to subjugate women? Do you think there should be affordable childcare? etc etc...

You don't want to label yourself, that is fine, what is not fine is your reinforcing of negative conoctations which are not based on fact.

neuro-praxis

I think this is wearing a little thin, Brown Eyes. What are you talking about, connotations that aren't "based on fact"?!

Feminism implies things that I disagree with. that's all there is to it, and I am allowed to pick and choose the things that I commit myself to in life.

Let's just agree to differ, seeing as we both want women to have equal rights.