Begging - why is it still legal?

SantaHoe

With so many facilities already in place to help the poor, why are people still begging? And why are people still giving to beggars? Is our welfare system so bad, that people have to roam the streets begging door-to-door and at taxi ranks just so they can survive?
I'm sure we've all had to use ATM's while trying to avoid eye contact with the beggar who's chosen to camp infront of it.
Genuine case of starving homelessness or not - I don't appreciate these intimidation/pressure tactics... such as being followed down the street by some reasonably well dressed gent looking for spare change.
I'd consider this behavior as harassment (polite mugging), and would like to see these people off the streets and out of my face.

I'm all for helping out the genuinely poor and homeless people around Dublin, but anyone who knows anything about Dublin - knows there are people out there making a good living out of begging (i.e. professional beggars).
How do you separate the truly needy from the chancers?
Are they really starving? Or just trying to live beyond their means?
Do they really deserve money for making people fear for their safety?
I don't know about you guys, but walking alone in the city center, and being approached (and followed) by some guy with a sob story looking for money, really puts me on edge... always wondering what kind of abuse I'd get if I say 'no'.

Generally I'd be more inclined to drop change on someone who's sitting there in the freezing cold and píssing rain, unshaven and depressed looking - than someone who's roaming around intimidating the taxi rank dwellers.

I say do away with begging (make it illegal), and encourage people to only give to reputable charity/homeless organizations - so that the people who really need it, get it... and the intimidation/harassment ends.
I know begging has been discussed before, but what about giving Gardi the power to detain beggars and put them in touch with people who can help get their lives back together, instead of the passers-by who can help them get high/stoned/drunk

chernobyl

Id say they make it illegal cus the govermant can never collect the tax money from the beggers cus there always getting charity in different locations.

damn polititions.

Typedef

Man do you have any idea how easy it is to slip quitely into a rut and become homeless, I don't, but consider this scenario, think of all the little 13 & 14 year old middle class - part time pot heads out there, now imagine one of those pot heads gets hooked on smack, (don't give me the spiel about hash!=heroin, brain wash someone who cares) now how easy do you think it would be for said smack-head to become homeless no-matter how much money his family has? Hell think of all those little kiddies who think getting ****faced on hash is their national duty, "middle" class kids, if heroin or speed was readily available to these little fsckers you would have a whole swathe of your friends from the old-boys chapter of opus-dei hanging around pass machines so what the **** is your point?

I have a radical suggestion, GET A LIFE.

Tax from the homeless, WHAT PLANET ARE YOU LIVING ON?

Typedef

Seriously don't you people have something better to do than to bitch and moan about homeless people, waxing daddies imitation mercedes for example?

Enygma

Last saturday night I was giving a few pence to this one guy and he goes to me: "Got a fiver?"

What the hell happened to "Spare a few pence guvnor?"

I do hate those bastards that hang around the ATMs though, those guys are the worst, one of them in Cork is about 23 FFS! Get a job mate!

There's absolutely no reason to be homeless these days, unless it's by choice.

I have a radical suggestion, GET A LIFE.

You could say that to the folks sitting next to the ATM too.

SantaHoe

Originally posted by Typedef
so what the **** is your point?

Did you even read my post?

Seriously don't you people have something better to do than to bitch and moan about homeless people, waxing daddies imitation mercedes for example?

I wasn't moaning about homeless people, I was moaning about the people out there that aren't starving or homeless and pretending that they are ... IMO they're taking money that would otherwise be going to genuinly homeless people.

It's just time the Government got the finger out and helped these people, instead of leaving it up to the average joe.
They invest so much in things like the GAA and numerous stupid, ill-concieved monuments for O'Connell street, yet people still sleep rough... and fake beggars still make their cash before heading home in a taxi.

You mentioned homeless drug addicts...
I don't think us giving them spare change is going to help a damn thing to be honest, wouldn't it be better to get him into re-hab and back on his feet?
If everyone gave spare change to somewhere like the Simon community instead of the beggars themselves - wouldn't that be of more help?

Again - I'm not having a go at the homeless/poor people, I'm moaning that it's the governments problem and they're not doing enough to sort it out, I'm whinging about the tossers out there that are making a living out of pretending to be homeless and sob-story mugging.
The people that hang around asking passers-by for "50p for bus fare", only to be standing in the same spot two hours later, after having already given him 50p, still asking people for 50p.

Begging is open to abuse, if someone really wants to sit at your ATM machine asking for cash, or follows you down the street until you give them something... what can you do about it?
You break your árse 5 days-a-week scrubbing pots and pans for sub-minimum wage, and some junkie who's spent all day wasted out of his head on gear wants your money?
I've got only one thing to say to that...

Dr. Loon

I remember about a year ago, I was in Eddie Rockets (drunk) getting myself some rediculously expensive food, when my girlfriend who was outside the door, called me out. I went out wondering what was going on and she pointed to a homeless, gay guy sitting on the side of the street, she said he was looking for money and all people did was slag him.

I looked at him and he was well dressed, but being drunk I decide to throw him a few squid. So he leaps up and starts thanking me, and shaking my hand, and he gives me his sob story.

He was HIV positive, and his folks found out he was gay and all this, all at the same time. This went on for awhile and the minute he said HIV I saw my girlfriend tensing up. I didn't give a shít.... but I then lost the head with him. I freaked because he was well spoken, and so even if he couldn't go back home, I was quite sure he was intelligent enough to get a fúckin job somewhere. I never saw that dude again, and I know lots of the homeless, not personally, but I remember their faces....the same ones are everywhere.

My question is this... is a homeless dude, sits on the side of the road, and is genuine and begs for a hostel/cup of tea or whatever, while reading a book... would he not then be able to fix himself up with a decent set of clothes, clean up a bit, and go get a job in Burger King!? Or somewhere else? He can read... so what's to stop him? Become a cleaner, waiter anything...... I think they can. It's about will to live. I give these guy's money, I don't give guy's money at ATM's and if they hassle me I tell them to fúck off. These shíts are homeless because they won't get themselves out of it even with others help.

Xterminator

Originally posted by Dead{o}Santa
With so many facilities already in place to help the poor, why are people still begging? And why are people still giving to beggars? Is our welfare system so bad, that people have to roam the streets begging door-to-door and at taxi ranks just so they can survive?.......

I know begging has been discussed before, but what about giving Gardi the power to detain beggars and put them in touch with people who can help get their lives back together, instead of the passers-by who can help them get high/stoned/drunk

That first question is almost a your answer.
There is still a lot of poverty in Ireland. That is why people take the extraordinary step of begging.
some of the neediest in our society are homeless people. There are not enough beds in privatley run charities such as the simon community, thus these desperate people struggle to escape the poverty trap.

Why should the Guards detain these people? Because you dont like the look of them? Because they look light they might be desperate enough to rob you? It sounds you might be happy if they were all forced into a shanty town, where you can't see them? Out of sight, out of mind, is that it?

Perhaps it is not actually the homeless person at the ATM that makes you feel uncomfortable. Perhaps it is your conscience!

If your homeless, you dont have access to clean clothes, tolietries, an address for employers, somewhere to sleep etc.

Lacking these basic things .. no employer is going to hire them. So getting a job is not an option!
No until they have a roof over there head, and can start on welfare. Then they can help themselves.

Finally, these professional beggars that you refer too. The ones choose to beg, when they dont have too. I know of no way to distinguish between them, and the real needy, but if I see someone who looks like they need help, and i have a few bob, I'd rather give the beggar the benifit of the doubt, than let a fellow person suffer.

P.S. while Government have a responsibility too, why do you call it a government problem?Is it not your responsibility as a meneber of society too? Perhaps if you spend some of your spare time working with these people on a volentary basis, and educate yourself as to the reality of the situation out there, you might change your tune.

neuro-praxis

I'm kind of astounded at some of the childish attitudes in here.

I agree with Xterminator, 100%.

Dead{o}Santa - I don't want to offend you in any way, but it's clear that you have never spent any time with homeless people.

Firstly - it is rare to meet a homeless person who is hungry. Food is obtainable. And yes, the vast majority, not minority, are drug addicts. The problem that they have is trying to get shelter for the night, and getting money for a fix.

Secondly, as to your wish about na Gardaí detaining people for the crime of homelessness, well, they do that already, you'll be pleased to learn.

In the summer when our tourist levels are high, na gardaí wander around town and round up the vagrants. They take them to the station where they put them in temporary cells so that they will be out of sight for the tourists. Then they release them at night when they haven't had the chance to beg for hostel money, and they are forced to sleep rough.

These people all once had money and stability and lives. Things go wrong, and putting people out of sight isn't going to improve the situation one iota.

And when it coms to giving to the needy - selflessness isn't about giving to those whom you can measure as being deserving - it's about sacrificing a little of what is yours and giving it someone because they're human.

As for seeing somebody reading a book and deeming them employable - do you people think that if a guy is homeless he is also illiterate, as a general rule? Eh, these guys weren't always homeless you know.

I could offer you all a dozen anecdotes about the homeless guys I know, but anecdotes and isolated incidents aren't enough. What needs to happen in Ireland is that the government need to start funding these charity groups instead of leaving it to the "good" of the nation. Decent homeless shelters with security need to be built - where guys can go and not fear having the **** kicked out of them by other residents. These shelters should provide facilities for education and help with finding work. Getting back on your feet from that kind of situation is not only physically difficult, but it is emotionally and psychologically a hugely daunting prospect, because it means taking control of your life once more, not to mention beating the prejudices of the likes of people expressed in here.

This is not something that can be solved immediately. There are people who wish to remain homeless - perhaps these are the professional beggars you talk of. If they choose to do that, why stop them? It doesn't impact on anyone else's life.

As for feeling intimidated, just be sensible and don't walk in dark alleys alone. Otherwise, you'll be fine. I've only had one bad experience with a homeless person, but he was violently drunk at the time.

One final note - those children you see begging are NOT homeless. Their parents send them out to beg from home. Children are never left on the streets by the authorities.

Dr. Loon

So they're all completely lost to themselves!? Bóllox. I think that someone can pick themselves up, get clean clothes, and go and apply for a job in one of the places I mentioned previously.

Then with that money, they could afford B&B or a decent hostel, and slowly make some money, save and slowly get yourself out of the gutter.

Rather than spend money on drink, drugs et al... it's all about determination, self pride... and I'm sure people do it... you just don't hear of it much

As for people reading, I like that, it shows that they give a bit of a **** about the state of their own mind.

When I lived in Christchurch, the scum bags who actualy had accomodation, would get their welfare, get píssed up on flagons of cider, waste yet more money on washing up liquid and pour the washing up liquid into various water features around Dublin to create a foutain of bubbles. Later on in the night, after I myself walked out of the pub and got meself a bag o chips, these same fúckers would be comin up to me trying to dig their filthy mits into my bips, and/or begging for money!!! What the fúck is that about? Where'd their money go? So I just gave them to them.... it's about what these people do with themselves... if you don't give a **** about yourself, why should anyone else!? As far as I'm concerned these people can just fúck off... they're a waste of time.

GreenHell

Tax the homeless, god thats funny if they don't pay, take all their worldly goods!

Much better way in my opinion would be help the poor to help themselves. Let them have fixed addresses from shelters where they would get a mail box. Then they can get social welfare and at least have the chance to improve their lives.

rachel

''I'd consider this behavior as harassment (polite mugging), and would like to see these people off the streets and out of my face. ''

has anyone else found themselves being hassled by ''official charities'' on major streets such as Grafton Street?
I'd say fair play to the individuals who do this but I'm pretty sure that these representatives either get paid for this or 'rewarded' in some way so they're not being too put out at all...

It is like the beggars who hassle people at taxi ranks or ATMs and getting increasingly irritating... as these people rarely take 'no' for an answer and waste your time while attempting to guilt trip you...

Aspro

Originally posted by Dr. Loon
So they're all completely lost to themselves!? Bóllox. I think that someone can pick themselves up, get clean clothes, and go and apply for a job in one of the places I mentioned previously.

I think you missed Xterminator's and neuro's point.
No fixed address = no job (no matter how menial and soul-destroying).
It's all very easy to be judgemental about people unless you have been in their position. Do you think people actually choose to be homeless and to resort to begging?
As neuro said, a majority are heroin addicts. Whether that was before or after they were made homeless they are caught in a vicious trap that is virtually impossible to get out of without support. Take the time to talk to any of these people and see the genuine horror stories of their lives.

Two key reasons why homelessness and begging exist:

1. The heroin problem has been ignored by successive governments since the 1970's. If proper funding had been put into treatment clinics and counselling services as in Holland we would not have the nightmare we have today. Instead these "unpeople" were swept under the carpet like the lepers of old.

2. The housing crisis has been allowed spiral out of all control. Land speculation and the selling off of corporation and council land to private profiteers has put homes out of reach of the majority.
Rack renting landlords (who we fought to get rid of 150 years ago) are having a field day. Different nationality, same greed.... and the government will do nothing to upset their rich friends.

Anyone who is or was in rented accomodation knows that there is nothing to stop your landlord charging you whatever they want. If you can't afford it, you're out on your ear. If you've nowhere else to go, what do you do? If you're desperate you'll do anything to get that money together. And if it happens to annoy someone who's at the ATM or the taxi rank, so what?

The point is, in an economic boom from 1993 to 2001 a small minority got extremely rich while the rest of us didn't. The social problems have gotten worse and we're heading into a recession.

Hopefully none of the complainers will lose their jobs or their homes and end up like those people they're so quick to judge.

I agree with one thing that dead o santa said:It's just time the Government got the finger out and helped these people, instead of leaving it up to the average joe.

Is it ever any other way? People complain and make the distinction between the genuine beggar and the 'bogus' beggar. I'm sure they're the same people who make the distinction between the genuine asylum seeker and the 'bogus' asylum seeker. Or the social welfare 'fraudster'. As if it were a 50:50 situation. This is the type of right-wing propaganda that confuses the issue: why are people homeless, why are people addicts, why are people poor??

Ans: Because the real scroungers and fraudsters are at the tops of society - the Ansbacher men, the Haugheys, the Lowrys, the no-tax-paying landlords and banks.....

You want to bitch and moan? Look at them.

Dr. Loon

Fair enough... I see what you're saying, belive me I give when I can to the genuine homeless.... and it's quite simple to distinguish...

Originally posted by Aspro
If you're desperate you'll do anything to get that money together. And if it happens to annoy someone who's at the ATM or the taxi rank, so what?

When the dude hassling me at a taxi rank, is covered in shíte, stinks of whiskey and is staggering around leering at women asking for money, I then consider "it" scum.... I don't give a fúck if this guy's homeless, he could do better if he was sober, all addictions can be beaten... even if it's only the human miind that does it. It's an issue that annoys me greatly. It's true... if they just had an address, then it'd be okay.... I reckon that there's some out there with an address. I've though about it alot, and I've thuoght about how easily I could be on the street, but I still think that I would pull myself out of it.....

GoneShootin

ooo controversial stuff here

one of them in Cork

is that the guy by the grand parade at the bank cross the bus stop ? we had a grand chat. said that the atm only hav out £50's. you know what, he was right, did i give him anyting ? NO !!

why ? wasnt gona get out £50, im a student ffs, dont have £50 in my account

SantaHoe

Originally posted by neuro-praxis
Dead{o}Santa - I don't want to offend you in any way, but it's clear that you have never spent any time with homeless people.

And it seems quite clear to me that you've never experienced aggressive beggars hounding you in broad daylight and who won't take no for an answer.
I'm not offended, you're right... I haven't spent time with them, that doesn't mean I consider them lower life-forms as some people here seem to be suggesting.
I was half expecting this kind of response, it's to be expected when you bring up a topic like this... people seem more interested in picking at eachothers values than discussing the topic as a whole.

Secondly, as to your wish about na Gardaí detaining people for the crime of homelessness

I didn't say 'detain', I suggested that the Gardai could put them directly in touch with an organization that can help.
Nor did I suggest homelessness should be a crime, begging is being exploited by people who don't deserve our money, as a result - the people who do need it are perhaps getting less of it, as the working public become more disgruntled with their encounters with bogus/aggressive beggars.

Things go wrong, and putting people out of sight isn't going to improve the situation one iota.

I agree, having them on the streets will surly raise awareness of the problem of homelessness... but isn't the whole point that they shouldn't have to be on the streets?

What needs to happen in Ireland is that the government need to start funding these charity groups instead of leaving it to the "good" of the nation.

Exactly - do away with begging and give them longterm help.

There are people who wish to remain homeless - perhaps these are the professional beggars you talk of. If they choose to do that, why stop them? It doesn't impact on anyone else's life.

No, that's not what I mean by 'professional beggars'.
The professional beggars I speak of are not homeless, and make their money by 'putting it on'.

Take for example - I was walking in town, and a couple standing in the middle of a busy street come over to me with some sob story about the womans hand-bag getting robbed and did I have a pound... I looked at the woman - and the pathetic attempt to look shocked and hurt was like something you'd see on the cutting room floor of Fair City.
I didn't want any trouble and, in a way, gave them the benefit of the doubt - so I gave them £1 and walked on... only to turn around and see them still standing there as before, probably waiting for the next sucker to come along.
In fairness, if your handbag was stolen - you'd call the police and (if needed) get a lift home with them.
These are the sob-story con-men, and if they manage to stop one person every 5 minutes and get a pound off each - they're making £12 an hour with their little scam... not a bad living.
I've heard about the same thing going on with the 'help me I'm homeless' beggars, and this is what has to stop.

Bard

Judging by some peoples attitudes on this forum, a lot of you need to get out, experience life more, and GROW THE F**K UP before attempting to express a proper 'informed' opinion about anything, especially a topic such as this.

Personally, I lived through poverty a few years ago. It was only a mild form of poverty in that, although my pride stopped me from doing so, I could have fallen back on certain people and gotten back on my feet a lot sooner... but it was still poverty. For quite some time, myself and my girlfriend did not know where our meals were to come from and every day was a damn struggle.

This situation came about shortly after I was accused of something I did NOT do (something to do with drugs), which resulted in us being evicted... on Christmas Eve... in Limerick- and lasted for a few months. As I've said in another thread, that was probably the lowest point in my life, but looking back on it now, I'm a better person for it.

Having lived through poverty, and being homeless, I could never be capable of the ignorant, uninformed and idiotic attitude that some people display toward the homeless and people who beg on the streets. While I DO know that I'll never allow myself to get into such a situation again, I also understand how easy it is for your life to go on a downward spiral resulting in that happening.

neuro-praxis and Xterminator: WELL SAID YOU TWO!!! I agree with you 1000%.

neuro- I've been at the receiving end of what you speak of re: the gardaí rounding up the vagrants. It was disgusting and embarrassing to me, but there you go. Being held in a cell overnight in Limerick's Henry St. Garda station because of being homeless and frozen with the cold was a degrading experience.

I had spent every penny I had available to me making sure that my girlfriend at the time got a place to stay (in a fairly well-known and secure hostel). She was #1 - she got a bed, while I made do with a doorway, and eventually a cell. Do you, Dead{o}Santa understand how personally degrading and damaging that can be? If I was well on my way toward being a poet and a philosopher before that, you can imagine what this did...

Personally, "Dead-O", I think you've gone a bit over-the-top here, protesting and complaining about something you've seemingly not experienced properly first-hand, and so can't fully understand. Forgive me if I'm over-reacting a little, - it's 4.15am, and although tired, I'm trying to articulate my thoughts and relate details about something that happened quite some time ago - something, incidentally, that I'd been doing a damn good job of blocking out.

By the way, I'd love to be able to say that the overnight cells in the Garda station were decent in any way. I'd love to be able to say that, but I can't. Staying in the shop doorway was always the preferred option,- practically heaven in comparison. The Limerick Gardaí didn't, at the time, have their reputation for brutality and corruption for nothing. I can't comment on them now, mind you, but at one time they were a shower of complete and utter shits - and nasty, brutish ones at that.

Be well,

Baz_

Originally posted by Bard
Judging by some peoples attitudes on this forum, a lot of you need to get out, experience life more, and GROW THE F**K UP before attempting to express a proper 'informed' opinion about anything, especially a topic such as this.

Personally, I lived through poverty a few years ago. It was only a mild form of poverty in that, although my pride stopped me from doing so, I could have fallen back on certain people and gotten back on my feet a lot sooner... but it was still poverty. For quite some time, myself and my girlfriend did not know where our meals were to come from and every day was a damn struggle.

This situation came about shortly after I was accused of something I did NOT do (something to do with drugs), which resulted in us being evicted... on Christmas Eve... in Limerick- and lasted for a few months. As I've said in another thread, that was probably the lowest point in my life, but looking back on it now, I'm a better person for it.

Having lived through poverty, and being homeless, I could never be capable of the ignorant, uninformed and idiotic attitude that some people display toward the homeless and people who beg on the streets. While I DO know that I'll never allow myself to get into such a situation again, I also understand how easy it is for your life to go on a downward spiral resulting in that happening.

neuro-praxis and Xterminator: WELL SAID YOU TWO!!! I agree with you 1000%.

neuro- I've been at the receiving end of what you speak of re: the gardaí rounding up the vagrants. It was disgusting and embarrassing to me, but there you go. Being held in a cell overnight in Limerick's Henry St. Garda station because of being homeless and frozen with the cold was a degrading experience.

I had spent every penny I had available to me making sure that my girlfriend at the time got a place to stay (in a fairly well-known and secure hostel). She was #1 - she got a bed, while I made do with a doorway, and eventually a cell. Do you, Dead{o}Santa understand how personally degrading and damaging that can be? If I was well on my way toward being a poet and a philosopher before that, you can imagine what this did...

Personally, "Dead-O", I think you've gone a bit over-the-top here, protesting and complaining about something you've seemingly not experienced properly first-hand, and so can't fully understand. Forgive me if I'm over-reacting a little, - it's 4.15am, and although tired, I'm trying to articulate my thoughts and relate details about something that happened quite some time ago - something, incidentally, that I'd been doing a damn good job of blocking out.

By the way, I'd love to be able to say that the overnight cells in the Garda station were decent in any way. I'd love to be able to say that, but I can't. Staying in the shop doorway was always the preferred option,- practically heaven in comparison. The Limerick Gardaí didn't, at the time, have their reputation for brutality and corruption for nothing. I can't comment on them now, mind you, but at one time they were a shower of complete and utter shits - and nasty, brutish ones at that.

Be well,

What a thread killer. Not meaning to make light of your experience Bard but it is a bit of a thread killer, what are you doing up so late anyway, I thought only ****e hawks like meself stayed up this late.

Well I haven't posted to this thread so far because I don't really have an opinion on the subject as I've no experience, but some of doctor loons comments about drugs, addictions more specifically both drugs and alcohol, pisssed me off as I have experience with that (not personal, familial) and well he is obviously one of the ones who needs to get into the real world, but i won't comment because I dont think I can do it subjectively.

Anyway just came in to say Jaysus Bard sorry to here about that, sounds like a right pile of **** alright (and yes I know thats the understatement of all time.) Oh and this:

Originally posted by Bard
Forgive me if I'm over-reacting a little, - it's 4.15am, and although tired, I'm trying to articulate my thoughts and relate details about something that happened quite some time ago - something, incidentally, that I'd been doing a damn good job of blocking out.

Now psychology is not really my bag and I don't want to come over all preachy about **** I know nothing about so you can say mind your own if you want and no offense but, I really think you shouldn't really be blocking it out, you should confront it and let out how you feel to someone, anyone (I have a spare ear if you want), and you should let yourself go through the emotional turmoil that you should go through to get all that shiit out of your system, well as much as is possible. Anyway like I said all you have to say is, mind your own, and my own is well and truly minded with no offence being taken.

Barry

Dr. Loon

Originally posted by Baz_
Well I haven't posted to this thread so far because I don't really have an opinion on the subject as I've no experience, but some of doctor loons comments about drugs, addictions more specifically both drugs and alcohol, pisssed me off as I have experience with that (not personal, familial) and well he is obviously one of the ones who needs to get into the real world, but i won't comment because I dont think I can do it subjectively.

Fúck u! What in the name of shíte do u know? I didn't want to bring up a load of crap and compare sob stories, but I too have had experience with drugs, alcoholism and poverty... however I don't want a fúckin sympathy vote from any of u dudes on here.

Bard - Am I supposed to cry? With a similar, but probably more dangerous experience under my belt, I do have sympathy for u and am glad you got out of your situation, but I don't need to read a novel on how nobel a man you were and fought against all odds. It's plenty to say you have first hand experience and leave it there.... I too have similar experiences..... so Baz.... until you know who you're dealing with don't say I'm pissing you off. I know a hell of alot more than you do on this topic.

Bard - apologies if I'm coming across harsh. I don't intend to stir up dark memories, but this is why I feel strongly on this subject. Glad you're doin cool now... as am I

Baz - I'm more in the real world than you could fúckin believe. Practice what you preach mate, practice what u preach.

bonkey

Originally posted by Dr. Loon
So they're all completely lost to themselves!? Bóllox. I think that someone can pick themselves up, get clean clothes, and go and apply for a job in one of the places I mentioned previously.

Problem 1 : Accrue enough money to buy some cheap but clean clothes.

Problem 2 : Accrue enough money to buy a second pair of clothes to wear when the first pair is being washed.

Problem 3 : Accrue enough money to be able to (somehow) have a permanent address, which is required (AFAIK) in order to get your good ol' P45, which is required in order to get an official job.

Now...if you look carefully at problem 3, you will notice that it is actually tautological in a sense....if you had the money for a permie address, you wouldnt be homesless, now would you.

The best work of fiction I've read which addressed this classic viscious circle of a problem was Trader by Charles de Lint, where the hero becomes homeless. He gets helped out by a (fellow homeless) guy who basically tells him how to get thru it....which involves starting to get out on day 1, rather than wallowing in self pity. For anyone who has fallen below a certain point, it is practically impossible (via the current system) to ever get a way out, even if you want to.

Now, I accept the basic premise of the first post....which could perhaps be better expressed as "isnt there a better way to deal with this problem", rather than saying "should we arrest them rather than giving them money".

The problem is that while there are those abusing the current (informal) system of "voluntary aid", these same people will abuse any alternative system as well. Also, if you create and enforce institutionalised systems to help these people, how do you deal with those who dont fit in to your neat little cubbyholes? The troublemakers, and the troubled....you cant kick them out, because you have made this the only way out, and made the alternatives illegal....

There is no clean solution. Human compassion *is* needed, and always will be. However, having said, the system is hugely inefficient as well, and needs improvement...

jc

Baz_

Originally posted by Dr. Loon


Fúck u! What in the name of shíte do u know? I didn't want to bring up a load of crap and compare sob stories, but I too have had experience with drugs, alcoholism and poverty... however I don't want a fúckin sympathy vote from any of u dudes on here.

Bard - Am I supposed to cry? With a similar, but probably more dangerous experience under my belt, I do have sympathy for u and am glad you got out of your situation, but I don't need to read a novel on how nobel a man you were and fought against all odds. It's plenty to say you have first hand experience and leave it there.... I too have similar experiences..... so Baz.... until you know who you're dealing with don't say I'm pissing you off. I know a hell of alot more than you do on this topic.

Bard - apologies if I'm coming across harsh. I don't intend to stir up dark memories, but this is why I feel strongly on this subject. Glad you're doin cool now... as am I

Baz - I'm more in the real world than you could fúckin believe. Practice what you preach mate, practice what u preach.

Okay so I take it from this that your an addict (recovering) of some kind, or somebody very close to you is. I take it from your statement above that "all addictions can be beaten" that you or your close friend beat the addiction. Well lucky you. My brother has been an addict for I dont know how long, and even with all the help all the advice, he still hasn't given up drugs. And it's not like he doesn't want to give them up but (and I can't even put this into words without experiencing it) it is one of the most, if not the most, difficult things that a person can ever do. Now granted it is on a want to do basis, and I don't actually believe that he fully wants to.

Now my uncle is another story, he really wants to give up drinking and each time he does, he falls off the wagon again. Now why is this I wonder could it be that for him it is also hard to give up the drink. Yes it could and it is. For him it appears impossible, and its not good for a persons mind to think they are weaker than a liquid substance (which they are, and all recovering addicts admit it openly).

Now my father was one of the lucky ones, first time he tried to give up the drink he did it. He was very lucky, very very lucky. And yet he doesn't go around thinking less of others who werent so lucky as him, and he was lucky, it wasn't just self-pride and determination, while that had a lot to do with it, he was lucky. If something bad had happened in them first six months or so, like a death or something, who knows how things would have turned out. Sure if his mind was prepared properly he would have had a better chance in case of a 'disaster', but when it comes to addictions nothing is certain, and I know for a fact that in the first while of a substance that there is no way that your mind can be prepared properly (from seeing my brother), thats where help and willpower come in.

So its the attitude you expressed, and the way you came across as unsympathetic to addicts that made me think that you need to get into the real world.

That was more subjective than I thought I could be about this matter, and without a single curse, whoa!!!. Maybe you should take note dr loon and stop posting with such aggresiveness than you showed. This is a discussion board, and while what I said might have annoyed you, you could simply have written a reasonable explanation of why you feel like you do and then I would have known and could have admitted my mistake and its still not too late to do that either. And don't come back with an "I dont have to justify myself to you or anyone" attitude, because thats just a silly way to think.

ObeyGiant

originally posted by Rachel
It is like the beggars who hassle people at taxi ranks or ATMs and getting increasingly irritating... as these people rarely take 'no' for an answer and waste your time while attempting to guilt trip you...

Just thought I'd chime in here and say that the law regards begging at ATMs as "Psychological Intimidation", and, as such, is the form of begging most likely to result in an arrest.

So you can ignore them with a clear conscience.

Dr. Loon

Originally posted by Baz_

So its the attitude you expressed, and the way you came across as unsympathetic to addicts that made me think that you need to get into the real world.

That was more subjective than I thought I could be about this matter, and without a single curse, whoa!!!. Maybe you should take note dr loon and stop posting with such aggresiveness than you showed.

Is this a discussion of personal woes and hardships or what? I apologise for my aggressive attitude... things come across differently in writing and I know that. If you knew me in person you'd understand, because unfortunately I do curse alot, whether it's uncouth or anything else I don't really care. I'm not trying to give off more attitude to anyone, but no, I don't feel I have to justify myself to anyone, and I don't consider that silly, but that's just me. Everyones got opinions, and I don't mean to push mine across too harshly... more often than not you'll find I don't really mean what I'm saying, but due to anger it's coming out like that....so sorry if I caused any offence and I hope your family do well with their problems.

I don't think this topic should continue on peoples particular problems because it's a bit off topic, but people are inclined to do that anyway. I don't believe I have any further input into the discussion anyway. Cheers

SantaHoe

Originally posted by Bard
Personally, "Dead-O", I think you've gone a bit over-the-top here, protesting and complaining about something you've seemingly not experienced properly first-hand, and so can't fully understand.

You know me do you?
Just because my experiences are different to yours, doesn't mean I'm uninformed ... I'm just looking at the situation from another perspective.
I keep stressing this point - I'm not having a go at people who've become homeless, so get off my case.
I'm having a go at the parents who send their kids out in the freezing cold begging to top off their welfare payments.
I'm having a go at the fraudsters that are abusing our trust.
I'm having a go at the aggressive beggars who'd sooner punch the head off you than say hello.
These are the things I've "experienced properly first-hand", and frankly it gets on my tits.
<-yoinked->don't really need to share that <-yoinked->
So yeah I guess you could say I know how degrading it can be, but if the government invested millions in shelters & life-rehab centers instead of GAA and stupid monuments while relying on joe bloggs to feed the homeless - you wouldn't have needed to sleep in that doorway in the first place.

Bard

Baz_, the reason I was up so late is that I work in a bar and am usually home at any time from 2.30am to 3.30am.

Take it easy on the quoting, will ya? No need to quote ENTIRE messages - just the relevant parts.

Anyway, - re: the "face your problems instead of blocking them out" thing... I guess I'm a bit misunderstood there, - although that's my own fault. What I meant when I said I blocked it all out was that I no longer thought about it. I "got over" it some time ago, and that took some time, - it's just that that time in my life is never foremost in my mind these days, and neither, I believe, should it be.

I believe the shit is *almost* out of my system ... it never can be *completely* out - the little bit that's left is what helps define me as a person and in this case make me a bit tougher.

I'd never go to a psychiatrist ... I'd only end up laughing at them and their interpretation of what goes on in my head. (It's a little too complex in there for anyone to understand... I've only ever met two people who understood me and connected with me properly in that way... and they sure weren't psychiatrists!)

Dr. Loon - I think you're over-reacting a little here... I'm not giving a sob-story, I'm just telling it how it was, and I personally don't give a flying fuck if you cry or not.

I wasn't particularly "noble", apart from the fact that I put my girlfriend at #1 and made sure she was OK before worrying about myself... that seemed natural. I sure didn't "fight" against all odds, - I fell at the first hurdle, and was lucky to pull myself out of the rut.

If you didn't want to read sad stories of poverty and depression, then you shouldn't have read a thread about homelessness at all. Sure!... It is, as you say, "plenty" for someone "to say you've experience and leave it there", but unless you're afraid of the truth, disturbed by reality, or just crap at reading, there's no reason not to have that fleshed out a bit with a bit of description of HOW they had that experience.

Dead-O... I never claimed to know you, - the part of my reply aimed at you was based on what you had posted and what others had said in reply. You'll notice the word "seemingly" in the reply. In other words, I wasn't and couldn't be 100% certain that what I was saying applied to you, but it SEEMED to. Sorry if I was wrong.

It's difficult - no, nigh on IMPOSSIBLE to tell simply through this forum what someone has had experience of and what their real attitudes towards certain sections of society are... so I'd recommend NOT trying to.

Take it easy, and cool it on the "fúck u"'s ... please.

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Bard
I'd never go to a psychiatrist ... I'd only end up laughing at them and their interpretation of what goes on in my head. (It's a little too complex in there for anyone to understand... I've only ever met two people who understood me and connected with me properly in that way... and they sure weren't psychiatrists!)
.

youd be surprised. its amazing how much shrinks get paid when to be honest all they do is listen to you. if talking to your friends doesnt help you, then some people like to pay to talk away their pain.
shrinks dont try and interperate whats in your head.
they try to get you to understand yourself. you figure it out yourself, you do the work, not them.

shame im in IT and not psychiatry actually. im sure id make a fortune from you lot of looneys!

as for the homeless, well cuts two ways doesnt it. theres plenty of them that are not desperate, who know how to operate and live that way. then theres people who have been unfortunate from one reason or another who get swallowed up.
where do you draw the line. can you help one but not the other?
is it right to condemn a certain slice of homeless people becuase another slice survive that way?
i dont know and to be honest, im too busy trying to live my life to worry. generally i feel that you get what you try to get. sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. toiday i feel like a winner.
then again, im usually tired in the afternoon adn quiet philisophical. b ythis evening i will be sarcastic and caustic again and think all homeless people should be sold into slavery.
or something

Bard

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan

shrinks dont try and interperate whats in your head.
they try to get you to understand yourself. you figure it out yourself, you do the work, not them.

Well said...

thats probably the main reason why I'd never go to one...- I already understand my own mind... which is just as well

shame im in IT and not psychiatry actually. im sure id make a fortune from you lot of looneys!

Oh believe me- I've often felt the same way... although I'm no longer in I.T., and would go back to it in a shot.

I still don't know *why* we studied psychology and group psychology as part of an I.T. course in the college I went to... *shrug*

where do you draw the line. can you help one but not the other?
is it right to condemn a certain slice of homeless people becuase another slice survive that way?
i dont know and to be honest, im too busy trying to live my life to worry.

As guilty as it may make me feel, I kinda feel the same way. ... have to look after #1.

bonkey

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan

as for the homeless, well cuts two ways doesnt it. theres plenty of them that are not desperate, who know how to operate and live that way. then theres people who have been unfortunate from one reason or another who get swallowed up.
where do you draw the line. can you help one but not the other?

I'm gonna be really unpopular for this, but.....

There are a lot of people who feel severely threatened or discomforted by *any* unsolicited begging - not just by the ATM-side guys, or the abusive ones, but anyone. You can call them snobs, or uncaring, but at the end of the day, these people should have the right to walk in a public place without having others intrude on them. So, its not just the "undesirables" who are a problem.

Being a complete hardnose about it, I dont think that any begging should be tolerated. If I go out on the street, asking you to donate money to me, with a shaker-tin and all that, the cops will definitely pick me up for collecting without a license. Just because the system has failed the homeless, and continues to do so, does not mean that they should somehow be outside the law in other respects....

As far as I know, begging is illegal. However, cops will usually turn a blind eye to much of it, for a variety of reasons, some good, some bad. So, lets say that we made begging *properly* illegal - any solicitation of funds without a license is punishable in some way. You back this up by implementing a proper support system for the homeless and severely poor. You're still treating everyone equally. You're not drawing lines.

Yes it costs money, but as someone pointed out....take it from the donations to the GAA pitches, the stiletto in the ghetto, or any other "cultural" spending. We can afford to be less cultural for a few years if it gets a problem of this magnitude sorted.

If someone does not want help from these support systems, and chooses instead to sleep on the streets, they are free to do so. As long as anyone is free to sleep on the streets for any reason. However, choosing to opt out of a support system does not give you the right to also opt out of the law.....but at the moment, thats what appears to be the reality.

jc

WhiteWashMan

I'm gonna be really unpopular for this, but.....

not all i.
i think you are right.

when some smeely carrion comes crawling around looking for money, i certaily dont want to give any away.
why should i give away what i have worked hard to achieve?

sure it may be uncaring and unfeeling, but thats me. im not going to go and work in a homeless shelter.
i will leave that to all the people who say the opposite to me. then they can go and work there so theyre not hypocritical.

as bard says
look after #1.

or indeed as james brown said:

get up like a sex mac, er not that one, the other one.

ive got mine, dont worry about his.

Victor

Sending the wrong message here, but I'm walking down a quiet laneway and a drunk hollers at me "Sorry, Bud, would ye have forty quid?"

SantaHoe

Sounds reasonable enough, hope you offered him a night in the Burlington aswell.

swiss

I never really liked beggars on the street. I don't know if this disdain is born from a guilty conscience or a self righteous indignation that there are people that beg of my time and resources. I've sometimes tried to imagine myself as a beggar, an individual so devoid or stripped of my dignity that I am forced to eke a living on the charity of others. I would like to think that I am a proud, independant individual who would never, no matter what my circumstances may be 'stoop' to such levels that I felt were heretofore beneath me.

I don't hold any grudge against beggars. I do often wonder as to what circumstance has forced them to such a miserable exiistence, and that leads me to believe that begging is as much derived from the crushing and beating down of the spirit as well as lack of material possessions that would help them to better their own lives, for example, as was previously mentioned, a fixed abode from which one could find a permanent job.

Another reason why I disdained the 'culture' of begging that has always existed in our cities was that it forced me to think of the way in which society had abandoned and abrogated their responsibilites to ensure that all human beings have a minimum standard of living, which includes the basic right of life's necessities, such as a roof over their heads and clothes on their backs. If society has turned it's back on an age old and ubiquitous problem - why should I help to possibly propogate the problem by giving these people money? By this I mean that many of those who beg on the streets do little to help themselves. The little money many beggars earn is squandered on drugs and alcohol. While this is an understandable form of escapism as they attempt to blur the drudgery and misery of their lives it does little to encourage me to believe that I can genuinely help these people - short of forcing them to visit rehabilitation centres.

Therein lies the chief flaw of the charity shown to many beggars. What is 'charitable' indeed in giving money in the hope that that will abrogate your responsibility, and assurge tortured consciences? We must also consider people that are forced to such a pitiable state of existence through no fault of their own, such as that Bard found himself in on Christmas Eve. They, clearly are no more or less worthy of help than, for example, drug addicts. However, a deliniation is made because they can be far more easily helped to help themselves.

I don't see an easy solution to the problem. Clearly, throwing money at the issue is not going to resolve it. What we really need is an effective and humanitarian organisation - such as a governmental form of the Simon Community, to help those who are fallen from the graces of society back on their feet.

Bonkey posited the idea of clamping down on beggars soliciting funds without a licence, which (correct me if I'm wrong) is illegal and placing proper support services in place to deal with the issue. This 'tough love' suggestion, which seems to offer a solution to a societal ill may be impracticable, IMHO. How does one help someone who is simply unwilling to help themselves by availing of opportunities that are already at their disposal?

Do we force them to do so - in the knowledge that we are ultimately helping their cause? In the case of adults, this is a difficult case to answer, but I believe that the answer should be 'yes'. This means that addicts and drunks should be made to attend rehabilitation clinics - with penalties and fines strictly enforced to those who do not. I believe that we can grapple with the moral and legal dilemma of compromising their civil rights once they finally break free of the vicious circle of misery and poverty.