Some Clarification

Matfinn

I am making this new topic in order to clarify a few things for myself and anyone else who is intrerested.

1) People believe that flatrate PSTN internet access is not economically viable here in the republic. A flatrate 56k based 24 hour service for a fixed price is not profitable for any telecoms operators and ISP's in this country, yet in the North, for STG£15 you can get 24hr flatrate. It seems economically viable up there, and they have 1/3 our population and they are 1/4 our size geograpically. Is it really not viable here?? At least for the moment?

2) The blackout has been rescheduled for a later date. Any idea when it will be. I read it was the 15th November. Is that oficially the new date?

3) Its almost a year now after Genesis Europes promised releqse date of DSL in Ireland. This is not a question, but it makes me sick these constant delays. DSL was meant to be out years ago.

4) Do you think we should take legal action against the relevant parties involved in delaying the rollout of broadband and/or flatrate interent access??

Thats all for now. Feel free to comment.

Thanks

Matt

Dustaz

1. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. Insurance is cheaper there, parts are cheaper there etc etc etc. The north can be offered Flat Rate because the company that is offering it (BT for example) has the rest of britain as a market. Thats what eircom will tell you anyway:)

2. /me looks at Dahamasta

3. Genesis made a an enourmous mistake promising DSL. They (or anyone) cant offer it untill Eircom let people use their exchanges. Its not their fault for not delivering. It IS thier fault for saying they could deliver.

4. No, they are too busy taking legal action amongst themselves Anyway, what are you going to sue them for?

dahamsta

Most of your questions are pretty subjective/arguable. I'll so the best I can. All IMHO.

1) People believe that flatrate PSTN internet access is not economically viable here in the republic. A flatrate 56k based 24 hour service for a fixed price is not profitable for any telecoms operators and ISP's in this country, yet in the North, for STG£15 you can get 24hr flatrate. It seems economically viable up there, and they have 1/3 our population and they are 1/4 our size geograpically. Is it really not viable here?? At least for the moment?

It's so not viable here, it's scary. Esat explained it in a roundabout manner when they said they couldn't offer a flat-rate product until it becomes commercially viable. That was basically saying that they can't offer a flat-rate retail product until Eircom offer a flat-rate wholesale product. (Why he couldn't just say that is beyond me!)

Eircom will say that a flat-rate wholesale product is not commercially viable for them - at least at the prices the OLO's and the ODTR want and will try to force on them - because they will need to upgrade the PSTN network to handle the traffic. And that's probably true, and it's true because Eircom's investment plan was written by either: a) a toddler; or b) a gangster. I'm going with b).

That's what makes the situation so ludicrous. Eircom quite literally painted themselves into a corner. Eventually they're going to have to open the exchanges and hand over the loops, and that's going to hurt them. They can manage it better as a private company, because they won't have to explain it to the shareholders, but they're still going to be kicking themselves. After all, all that's really left is the network. Everything else is wholly dependant on it.

2) The blackout has been rescheduled for a later date. Any idea when it will be. I read it was the 15th November. Is that oficially the new date?

Probably. I'll tell you for definite on Monday. Sorry, Tuesday. We'll announce it here first, to give ye a few days to look over the site and offer suggestions for improvements. We'll announce it to the media the following week.

3) Its almost a year now after Genesis Europes promised releqse date of DSL in Ireland. This is not a question, but it makes me sick these constant delays. DSL was meant to be out years ago.

I've defended Genesis in the past, and that's because I knew some of the guys involved and I think they genuinely wanted to do this. The vDSL announcement was misguided, and premature. As far as I can see, it was announced by the founder before he really understood the technology. Then he took on some people who explained it to him, and they refocussed. However it was all dependant on LLU and bitstream, and as we all know, that still hasn't happened.

Dustaz has a valid point, in that they were premature. Gary Keefe got totally ahead of himself. But I think it only fair to point out that he wasn't the only one who thought LLU was on the way. It's arguable, but I think Surf NoLimits was set up for exactly the same reason - they thought LLU was on the way. And look what happened there...

4) Do you think we should take legal action against the relevant parties involved in delaying the rollout of broadband and/or flatrate interent access??

Do you have a magic wallet?

Be honest with you, I've thought of this myself, but do you really think it's viable? The last few weeks have demonstrated amply that we only have a finite amount of time in the day to deal with this. We all have jobs and other stuff to do, and I don't know about the rest of 'em, but I don't have a whole lot of money to play with either.

Maybe the community would be willing to contribute to the "cause", but I'm sceptical. It would involve an enormous amount of money. Most people don't understand the issues involved either - and that goes for the politicians too - so I think the only way to proceed is to keep trying to educate people, keep trying to come up with ideas, and keep prodding the politicians until they do something just to get rid of us.

Again, all IMHO.

adam

PS. "Do you really think it's viable?" was a genuine question. If you think it is, if you think it's possible, I'd like to hear about it. Discuss.

PPS. If you do have a magic wallet, please post it to: Box 81, Eglinton Street, Cork. I'll send a receipt by return of post.

Dustaz

What can Eircom be sued for really? If the ODTR and the Govt cant do anything, im not so sure a private citizen can have any legal footing to stand on. Last time i checked, i dont think you can sue a company for being "a shower of complete ****es", ill ask me barrister mates tho:)

b20uvkft6m5xwg

One possible legal angle (although a bit contrived) could be pursued....

Presuming that the EU are unhappy about the progress in a variety of EU legislation implementation, they could issue an A.226 Enforcement Action. This as one can imagine, would create a further legal obligation on the state to expedite logjams in areas of LLU and competition law.

Then, presuming there is still no action by the Govt. to implement these specifications (including forcing €ircom to comply through adequate national legislation), we (the citizens) could apply to as non-privelged applicants[A.230(4)] to force the Commission to force Ireland to comply. Now there are various hurdles to overcome to be classified as a non-privelged applicants-ie.....
-the issue is directed to the applicant
-is of direct interest and indivdual concern
or **NB**a decision addressed to another person which is of direct and indivdual concern to the applicant.

The question thus is... Is non-compliance by €ircom of direct and indivdual concen to us, the citizens??

Whether or not it is, seeking relief from the ECJ on such an issue is multilayerd and lenghty, but I thought I just throw that hypothesis into the ring:)

dahamsta

What can Eircom be sued for really? If the ODTR and the Govt cant do anything, im not so sure a private citizen can have any legal footing to stand on. Last time i checked, i dont think you can sue a company for being "a shower of complete ****es", ill ask me barrister mates tho

That's why you'd need all the money. Eircom have been quite careful not to break the law, they just stretch it, and that's how solicitors and barristers make lots of money. But they have stretched it quite hard. Their advertising is misleading. Their behavious is anti-competitive. Their management of the business is incompetent. Et cetera.

Is non-compliance by €ircom of direct and indivdual concen to us, the citizens??

It is, but unfortunately most citizens aren't aware / don't do anything about it. It's of direct and individual concern to me - Eircom are directly responsible for my overpriced comms bills. But again, that's arguable. Well, by Eircom anyway.

adam

b20uvkft6m5xwg

Is non-compliance by €ircom of direct and indivdual concen to us, the citizens??

It is, but unfortunately most citizens aren't aware / don't do anything about it. It's of direct and individual concern to me - Eircom are directly responsible for my overpriced comms bills. But again, that's arguable. Well, by Eircom anyway.

Well of course Adam we all know it is ( and how gravely it is affecting businesses in Ireland), but this would be an issue for the European Judiciary to decide. The interpreation here-to-fore (as the case law would indicate), is very restrictive and thus we would have to produce hard evidence as such before we even get to Luxembourg. (whether our Phone Bills would suffice- who Knows??) As you intimated its arguable whether €ircom are to blame, but if "non-priveleged applicants" status could be established then we could sue the state via the commission. [note: lack of recourse versus €ircom themselves for us ordinary folk:(]

Its all very unlikely but its comforting to know these things exist.