ADSL in Italy

chernobyl

Im sure lots of you guys have Game-Network and so may know this already.

DSL it italy costs 83000 Lira or roughly 43 Euros for 512/128, and no caps.

http://finance.yahoo.com/m5?a=83000&s=ITL&t=EUR


Its painful.

fro

To further sadden everyting for you. ADSL in Sweden costs 200 (going to be raised to 275) SEK or 325 SEK a month (17 (23) or 27 Irish Punts) and gets you unlimited traffic at 512/512.

For Norway the price is/was a few months ago 38 Irish Punts a month for the speed of 512/128.

Hope at least some of you find these numbers to any use.

Thank you for your time,
/fro

chernobyl

Originally posted by fro
and gets you unlimited traffic at 512/512.

so Sweden defines "Asymmetric" differently...cool

hudson806

Originally posted by chernobyl


so Sweden defines "Asymmetric" differently...cool

Its still ADSL: ADSL allows any combination of upstream/downstream up to 800k/7.1m or thereabouts, so 512k/512k ADSL is perfectly feasible (although a good quality line is needed for 512k upstream). The Finns do something similar (I think they have 256/256 512/512 and 1Mb/512k or something like that).

fro

Originally posted by hudson806


Its still ADSL: ADSL allows any combination of upstream/downstream up to 800k/7.1m or thereabouts, so 512k/512k ADSL is perfectly feasible (although a good quality line is needed for 512k upstream). The Finns do something similar (I think they have 256/256 512/512 and 1Mb/512k or something like that).

Actually ADSL can offer up to 2 MBit/8 MBit, at least with the telephone system/lines in Sweden

Thank you for your time,
/fro

hudson806

Originally posted by fro

Actually ADSL can offer up to 2 MBit/8 MBit, at least with the telephone system/lines in Sweden

Bit unlikely there mate: The G.dmt ADSL spec only allows up to 640k/s upstream. That can be pushed a bit up to about 800-900k, but at that point all dmt carriers are used up, making it basically impossible to go any faster. Maybe it's some sort of early(ancient) SDSL tech. they're using to provide the 2mb upstream lines?

Can't help but be curious...

SkepticOne

Originally posted by hudson806
The G.dmt ADSL spec only allows up to 640k/s upstream.

How can people survive with that little upstream bandwidth?

Boston

i think hes getting confused with either VDSL or HDSL
wtih 3 or 2 pairs of swisted copper wires. Still ive never seen any spec with higher upload then download.
also, you need to be nearly living in the exchange to get 640k

fro

Only goes to show that you shouldn't post stuff right before you go to sleep. I managed to get my numbers mixed up the upstream speed is only 1 MBit but the downstream speed is 8 MBit, and no I am not getting confused with HDSL or VSDL but these are numbers for ADSL. Just hope none of my teachers see that post cause then I can kiss my certificate to work on the Swedish Phone System good bye.

Sorry for the confusion about the numbers hope you can forgive me,
/fro

fro

Originally posted by SkepticOne

How can people survive with that little upstream bandwidth?

I know seem to be a bit slow.
I can barely manage with my 2x10 MBit lines

/fro

Boston

still i find it hard to see how you get that over your standard lines.
tell me are they just a single copper pair,

fro

Originally posted by «Bo§ton»
still i find it hard to see how you get that over your standard lines.
tell me are they just a single copper pair,

They are still a single copper pair in most places, or the part in the houses are. Much of the Phone system here uses fiber now but the last bit is still copper.

/fro

SkepticOne

Originally posted by fro


I know seem to be a bit slow.
I can barely manage with my 2x10 MBit lines
/fro

Turning off images in the browser helps.

Bard

Can someone simply explain to me what bearing ADSL in Italy has on the situation here in Ireland?

Boston

fro thats not how it is in most places, i think i read about that somewere once.

Bard, it has totaly no effect. im starting to wonder about all the reason were given for not having adsl, 1)not enough of us 2) were to far apart 3) cant make money out of it.
all totaly BS and italy just proves it again.

Ps i put that price to someone in italy, they said it was far to ****ing expensive. I would kill for that price

SkepticOne

Originally posted by «Bo§ton»
fro thats not how it is in most places, i think i read about that somewere once.

Bard, it has totaly no effect. im starting to wonder about all the reason were given for not having adsl, 1)not enough of us 2) were to far apart 3) cant make money out of it.

I think 3) is closest to the correct answer. They haven't offered ADSL up to now because they have been making good money without offering it. Unlike other countries where "56K" is flat rate and the encumbant has competition, Eircom doesn't need to offer ADSL. There is a thread on the IrelandOffline message board where people admit to handing over £200-300 per month for ISDN and POTS connections. What is the point of ADSL (from Eircom's point of view) if it does not add to their profits. The big problem with ADSL is that it will be popular.

fro

What I find very interesting or perhaps surprising with the ADSL issue in Ireland which sort of concerns the 3 piont that «Bo§ton» mentioned.
1) Not enogh people in Ireland;
2) To far apart;
3) Can't make money on it.

If I may make a comparison with sweden without getting to far off topic. Sweden have a population which is roughly 2 times Irelands but the contry in itself it about 7 times as large and here it is apparently possible to at least not loose to much money on it so I really don't see the reason why it wouldn't be possible for Ireland to have it. Your population density is much higer which should make it less expensive to upgrade the equipment needed for it to work.

Just look at the Dubllin area I think I saw some numbers that mentioned that about 1.1 million people live Dublin City and there is still nearly no broadband what so ever. If I compare it to where I live in a city with around 71.000 inhabitants who everyone basically have broadband access if they want to (all stations for the phone system have been upgraded to support ADSL, and the city itself is building a fiber-optic network to be able to offer "true" broadband to all its inhabitants). Also if we compare area Dublin's is about 120 sq.km and "my" city is about 2000 sq.km. Now I am not to good on economics but to me it sounds like of the two cities mentioned Dublin should be the one with the broadband access if money was the ruling factor. I find it all very strange

Hope I didn't go to far off topic. If I did I am sorry.

Thank you for your time,
/fro

dahamsta

Bard, it's a point of reference. I think it serves a purpose. God knows, half the stuff I post here could be considered well off-topic...

Boston and Fro make very good points. The standard defense with Eircom is "4) All of the above", but the Scandanavian countries seem to prove that utterly wrong. We hear about the "failure" of broadband in the U.S. regularly (courtesy of Mr. Cringely and others), and we hear about the problems in the U.K. regularly too, but it seems to be working pretty well in Scandinavia. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the problem is with the language difference, or there's some other problem. Or maybe Scandanavia were simply clever, and invested carefully and wisely.

Another thing that maddens me was a comment made recently about Spain, where they have a problem with DSL uptake. They "only" have 50,000 DSL users. Gah!

adam

Dustaz

OK, This is absolutly pointless.

Number 1, i worked in Venice this year and that ADSL deal was NOT available there. Maybe in rome and milan, but not in smaller towns.

Number 2. You cant compare Ireland with anywhere else, especially not scandanavian countries. There is a totally different ethos there. The govt's help out with the cost of upgrading networks and the market is healthier.

Number 3.

The big problem with ADSL is that it will be popular.

No it wont. It will be popular with us, sure, but i have a sneaking suspicion that the takeup of DSL will be less than anticipated. Even if the price drops from what Eircom are offering, its still a luxury. Business will for sure be interested, but what worries me is the domestic market. Everyone here had a fit and refused to order it and we are the main target audience. Most of the people on the trial were not 'like us' and couldnt give a monkeys about the speed from what i gather. I just cant see Mrs Johnson from number 42 paying much more than her current phone bill for the chance to video conference with young johnny in Australia.
Its people like us who will pay the money for domestic broadband, and again, how many of us is there?

vac

I dunno about anyone else but im sick to the teeth of these threads, they are pointless, knowing that you can get adsl in italy will not make my life any better when it comes to internet connections.

Threads like this encourage people to feel selfpity imo, to sit back and say "weh, they've got that and we don't, its not fair" won't acomplish anything..

Fidelis

weh, they've got that and we don't, its not fair

Boston

Originally posted by fro
What I find very interesting or perhaps surprising with the ADSL issue in Ireland which sort of concerns the 3 piont that «Bo§ton» mentioned.
1) Not enogh people in Ireland;
2) To far apart;
3) Can't make money on it.

If I may make a comparison with sweden without getting to far off topic. Sweden have a population which is roughly 2 times Irelands but the contry in itself it about 7 times as large and here it is apparently possible to at least not loose to much money on it so I really don't see the reason why it wouldn't be possible for Ireland to have it. Your population density is much higer which should make it less expensive to upgrade the equipment needed for it to work.

Just look at the Dubllin area I think I saw some numbers that mentioned that about 1.1 million people live Dublin City and there is still nearly no broadband what so ever. If I compare it to where I live in a city with around 71.000 inhabitants who everyone basically have broadband access if they want to (all stations for the phone system have been upgraded to support ADSL, and the city itself is building a fiber-optic network to be able to offer "true" broadband to all its inhabitants). Also if we compare area Dublin's is about 120 sq.km and "my" city is about 2000 sq.km. Now I am not to good on economics but to me it sounds like of the two cities mentioned Dublin should be the one with the broadband access if money was the ruling factor. I find it all very strange

Hope I didn't go to far off topic. If I did I am sorry.

Thank you for your time,
/fro

This is an excellent arguing point, and it’s these types of arguments that are needed to combat eircoms ****. I hope someone’s writing that down for future reference. This alone is enough reason for this tread. I notice some people seem to have made is a hobby to challenge the right to life of half the treads on this board. I say fine, then you replace them with better ones.
and adsl will bepopular you thinking how eircom wants you to think, if adsl is sold at say 50 a month whil isdn is still metered, all those people will switch to adsl if they can. for the simple fact they pay close to that anyway with basic internet use.
ADSL will be alot more popular here then else were, because you options will be so restricted

Dustaz

Again ill say theres no real point in throwing the Sweden comparison at Eircom for the reasons outlined above. Its is however worth mentioning it to the Govt, as they can provide the same funding as the scandanavian govts did.

fro

Originally posted by Dustaz

Number 2. You cant compare Ireland with anywhere else, especially not scandanavian countries. There is a totally different ethos there. The govt's help out with the cost of upgrading networks and the market is healthier.

Why can't you compare it??? I can't speak of th eother scandinavian countries but in Sweden no goverment money have gone to the ADSL upgrades. Yes money have been given to the IT sector but it have mostly gone to build a new fiberoptic net to increase the overall capacity, to the cities for building MAN networks and to increase the number of university educations in the IT area.

So while I can understand that no we might not be able to compare everything, when it comes down to ADSL I do not see why it can't be compared.

As for the market thing we have a monoply here also on the local loops so I actually think there might be more similarities then first expected.

Once again sorry of you think this is off topic,
/fro

Boston

Then your blind,

Eircom, ADSL cant be viable in such a low and widely populated country,
Ioffl, But what about Sweden, with …
Eircom, well you see they get more government grants
Ioffl, so your saying the problem isn’t low population but lack of government grants.
Eircom, umm... mmm… aaa…. This meeting is over!

dahamsta

How do I state my opinion without causing a riot!? Remember lads - and lasses, if any are present - we're here to be constructive.

Dustaz, I see your point, in that there's no point in /comparing/ Ireland and Scandanavian countries. But we can still learn from them. They have a different ethos precisely because they embraced the technology, they saw what was possible and what could be achieved with it. And they're streets ahead of us (in some respects) because of that. And that's why I think contrasting, rather than comparing, is a good avenue to take, for example:

"Look at Scandanavia. See how far they've gone with the same and often even more pronounced problems Eircom allude to. If Scandanavian telco's can embrace it and succeed, how can Eircom even suggest these problems? They can't. They're clutching at straws."

And to come back to my latest thread:

"Look at America. They made a complete hash of it. They overinvested and over extended themselves. They enacted imprecise, short-term legislation that had no long term advantages. We're making the same mistakes. We need to fix it."

Once again folks, please, try to keep it polite. Constructive criticism an' all that.

adam