Lest we forget...

bugler

While most eyes are on Afghanistan and the potential for suffering of innocent people, we shouldn't forget that there are plenty more innocents in various countries at risk. I'm referring to the people of countries which are currently signing up to join this honourable "war against terrorism". Their support of the Western campaign to purge the world of evil men will probably guarantee that their human rights abuses can continue, and indeed be escalated, without any fear of rebuke or action from the West.

Uzbekistan - Has an Islamic "problem" itself.Thousands of supporters/members of Islamic groups which are thought to be dangerous have been detained and jailed in recent years, with widespread reports of torture and corruption of the judicial system. There are Western troops currently in Uzbekistan, they are a friend now I suppose...

Russia - Need I say anything? One word : "Chechnya". While the eyes of the world are turned towards Afghanistan, Russia's poorly motivated force of young conscripts and contract criminals are pillaging through what is left of Chechnya.Nevermind, they are on an "anti-terrorist" operation, though what kind of anti-terrorist operation necessitates levelling cities, illegally detaining and torturing people on the basis of ethnicity and requesting bribes for their release I'm not sure.

Turkey: Never really came under too much scrutiny for its savage treatment of the Kurds in the south.Turkey has always been important to NATO, and provides a vital bulwark against the potentially hostile Middle East, so we don't need to hear about the 3,000 Kurdish villages burned, destroyed, or "evacuated" by the Turkish security forces in the past decade. Recently, torture of suspected members of Turkish Hizbullah has been alleged, this can be expected to continue.

China - I'm not all that aware of the situation of Islamic Separatists in the NW of the country, but apparently the Chinese Governments distinction between "separatist" and "terrorist" hasn't got any clearer since September 11, and we can expect more silence on this matter too.

Egypt,Saudi Arabia, Syria et al - Have plenty to hide too.Oppressive treatment of opposition groups, regularly handing down long sentences for minor "crimes", which can often be simply disproved, that is if they took place in something resembling a fair, effective judicial system.Saudi Arabia still engages in the delightful practice of limb amputation for alleged crimes too.

The "good" part of Afghanistan - The part that is controlled by the heroic Northern Alliance of course.Will we turn a blind eye to their past massacres and human rights abuses now that they might be useful to us? Will we turn a blind eye when the Taliban are overthrown and the wider Pashtun population start to suffer, at the hands of the NA, for the regimes fall from power? Fine words are all well and good, (I'm looking at Tony Blair), but talking about instituting a multi-ethnic government of Afghanistan and stating that the Pashtun should not suffer for the Talibans brutality is one thing, making concrete efforts to see these things done is another.

Iraq - Well over half a million children dead due to sanctions and Saddam is sitting tight.We are occasionally treated to reports of how terrible he is (and has been) to the Kurds of Iraq (Turkey doesn't suffer similar attention), but again, this shouldn't change anytime soon.

"War against terrorism" indeed...

Nagilum

Why does everyone always say that the sanctions are killing Iraqi children? Seems to me that Saddam still has plenty of money to finance chemical and biological weapons research, some of which he tested on his own people.

Typedef

The above posting is indicitave of the quasi-totalitarian regieme that passes for egalitarian, bipartisan democracy in the "West".

If the Irish government were really commited to humanitarian issues and really believed in inalienable human rights then surely the government could not proport and promote trade links with China - supressing and brainwashing members of Falun Gong , occupying and colonising Tibet, violently supressing democracy like in Tiananmen Square.

Similarly if the United States were really a nation that believed in the equality of every person on the planet, then surely it would not now be willing to murder maim and kill people in Afghanistan in the name of revanche. Does no one else find it an absurd parity that Israel has been allowed to flout UN resolutions on the occupation of non-Israeli territory for 30 years, while the US ploughed through the Iraqi army in Kuwait on the strength of UN resolutions?

If the UK was a state of justice and equity as it proports to be then it would not allow sale of arms to states like Indonesia where the arms are used to supress the militarily enfeebled people of East Timor.
Look at how the UK has extended it's hand of friendship to the military dictatorship in Pakistan, a regieme that has developed 50-70 Nuclear weapons to date, and has not been installed by the people of Pakistan by universal sufferage, but rather by insurrection and usurption of the democratic process.

This is the nature of the tacitly hypocritical regieme in which we live. Democracy is a theatre show to our politicians - look at the Presidential elections and the farce that transpired in Florida, I will not say the election was rigged, but it is suspicious in the extreme that such questions hang over the democratic process in the very state that is run by George Bush's little brother. Look at how this government, our elected representatives now intend to put the Treaty of Nice to another vote, presumably until the government gets the outcome it desires. Look at the UK where in the year 2001 there are still heriditary peers. Maybe by comparison to a military dictatorship like Pakistan, we live in a benovalent and austire society, but one that is palpiably unrepresentative, morally two-tiered and democratically defunkt.

bugler

Originally posted by Nagilum
Why does everyone always say that the sanctions are killing Iraqi children?

Well it might be because they are.Saddam doesn't care about his people, he just wants to stay in control.The US/UK know this, and, if the truth be told, they don't care about the Iraqi people and neither are they particularly bothered about Saddam being in power.The West knows Saddam has money to live well and finance his own chosen pet projects, and they know that the ordinary Iraqi people do not have the means to live.Yet they still keep the sanctions in place.They had the chance to get rid of Saddam during the gulf war, but when Kurds and rebelling Iraqi officers listened to G Bush Snr and rose up against Saddam they were left for dead by the West.The US wouldn't even allow the rebelling officers access to captured arms.Presumably Nagilum, you are the type of guy who might leave my child with a rabid rottweiler, watch the dog savage him, then when he gets killed by the dog tell me that it wasn't your fault at all, it all was the dogs.

Seems to me that Saddam still has plenty of money to finance chemical and biological weapons research, some of which he tested on his own people.

Yes, he is a terrible man.The West didnt give a damn about him testing these weapons on his own people when he was our friend.The West encouraged him to attack Iran, and supported him through times when his atrocities were far worse than they are now.

ConUladh

The "good" part of Afghanistan - The part that is controlled by the heroic Northern Alliance of course.Will we turn a blind eye to their past massacres and human rights abuses now that they might be useful to us? Will we turn a blind eye when the Taliban are overthrown and the wider Pashtun population start to suffer, at the hands of the NA, for the regimes fall from power? Fine words are all well and good, (I'm looking at Tony Blair), but talking about instituting a multi-ethnic government of Afghanistan and stating that the Pashtun should not suffer for the Talibans brutality is one thing, making concrete efforts to see these things done is another.

To be fair, at least this is getting a bit of coverage in the news, I don't think they'll leave things in a state where the Northern Alliance can take over, that'd be an almighty mess

As for Iraq, the sanctions only seem to be hurting people, they've been pointless all along and should be gotten rid of

Blitzkrieger

Originally posted by bugler

The West knows Saddam has money to live well and finance his own chosen pet projects, and they know that the ordinary Iraqi people do not have the means to live.

I have a solution! Tighten sanctions!

Clintons Cat

Bugler

to add to you list

Pakistan,
Sanctions imposed after Nuclear testing lifted unilaterally by the US after its support,post WTC bombing.
responsible for the original training and indoctrination of the Taliban in its religious schools in Lehore and allowing open recruiting centres in impoverished districts of the city.
Its own support for Kashmir terrorists linked to bin laden.which this week detonated a bomb in city Srinager killing 38 people outside the assembly building.

Pakistan Has had to open fire on pro taliban protestors to regain control after civil disturbances killing three.
.

Sudan
Sanctions lifted following its support for US post WTC.
Disputed owners of a terrorist chemical weapons factory and cited pre WTC as the main Al quidia training center and base for the guerrillas fighting the <perceived>us occupation of Somallia.
Terrorists rounded up after the embassy bombings were believed to have spent a length of time in Al quidia training centers within sudan including the key bomb maker.
Alledged Chemical factory destroyed by cruise missile after the embassy bombings.
No clarification by the US as to wether or not it now accepts the target was a domestic phamacuticals factory.

Iran
Revocation of Fatwa Issued against Salman Rushdie Still pending
Now seen as critical lynchpin of US afganistan Policy.
Ethnic Iranian Tajics comprise the majority of the Northern Alliance Forces.
Has improved its standing in the west for taking a tougher stance on drugs.Heroin Addicts including women publicly hanged on back of flatbed trucks for possesion of small ammounts Heroin.
Ammounts of heroin arriving in europe unnoticably deminished.
<stop press>Iran has endangered its Good guy status by cricising US air strikes.

Saudi Arabia
Links to the Taliban at first played down then totally ignored.
two weeks after the WTC bombing withdrew diplomatic relations with afganistan.
Osamed Bin Laden Saudi national believed to be firmly against US forces based within Saudi Arabia.Said to be Sworn to topple the Saudi royal family who exiled him after the first WTC bombing in 1995.Have flattly refused to allow Americans to use its bases to bomb afganistan and the taliban.
Two of the hi jackers identified as Saudi nationals.None of the hi jackers believed to be Afganistan nationals.Terrorists apear to have learned their trade in european and US flight schools not dusty camps within afganistan.



Finally The Northern Alliance
Humans Rights Violations abound
First to Prohibit womens right to work during there breif reign in kabul.
Spent two years shelling each others positions killing 25,000 people in the process
A loose alliance of warlords,ex mujahadeen guerillas,former socialist government fighters,heroin smugglers and defecting taliban units.Currently controlls 10% of territory
Considered to be the makings of a stable government



..............
Satire follows

Just for Gallows A round up of what the Democratic World is up to.

Tony Blair
Moved tornado fighters closer to london to shoot down any hi jacked plane heading for London.
Precise means of determining wether plane has been hijacked or off course undetermined.
Has underlined that he will not be taking his war on terrorism to the Real IRA on the grounds that there is a peace process in place and besides flattening derry and dublin probally would be considered a bit of an overreaction and very likely to be counter productive.Such logic does not apply to afganistan on the grounds that is very far away.

Vladimir Putin
Doing his bit to ease world tensions by shooting down Isralli passenger jet.

Sharon
Anexing palestinian lands whilst accusing the west of apeasement.Upset that Jack Straw refered to Palestine in meetings with Iran claiming that there was no such place if sharon has his way soon there will be no such people.
Complaing vehemenently about Arrafats reluctance to lock up the extremists whist his military is busy knocking down the police stations required to lock them up in.

George Bush
Proving that the response to cowardly attacks is to lauch missile attacks from 2000 miles away against a foe whose idea of cutting edge millitary prowess apears to be a shiny red pick up.
Intelligence on the composition of taliban weapons is considered 100 per cent accurate on the grounds that they know exactly what weapons they have got because they gave them to them in the first place.

................

Satire ends:(

Clintons Cat

Why does everyone always say that the sanctions are killing Iraqi children?

"as U.S. Secretary of State, Madeline Albright is one of the architects of U.S. foreign policy against Iraq. In an interview with Leslie Stahl of CBS on May 11, 1996, U.S. Secretary of State Madeline Albright was asked whether the over half a million children killed by the sanctions were "worth it." Her response was: "It’s a hard choice, but I think, we, think, it’s worth it."

"The U.S./UN economic sanctions which have been imposed on Iraq are now in their eighth year. They have brought about a catastrophic economic situation in that country, resulting in the deaths of an estimated 1.5 million Iraqi children, women and men."

defending her comments on CNN style question time program she said
"What we are doing," replied Albright, "is so that you all can sleep at night. I am very proud of what we are doing. We are the greatest nation in the world ..."

She stopped as the audience rose and applauded.

"... and what we are doing," she resumed, "is being the indispensable nation, willing to make the world safe for our children and grandchildren, and for nations who follow the rules."




I wonder if in the light of recent events Madeline Albright still considers it worth it?


It wasnt worth it then and it isnt worth it now.

Seems to me that Saddam still has plenty of money to finance chemical and biological weapons research

Would it be fair to say that sanctions have totally failed in their purpose then.

some of which he tested on his own people.

So we agree that a million dead babies is unlikely to unduely trouble his conscience then.To quote joseph stalin one death is a tragedy a million deaths is a statistic".

..............search links to madeline albrights comments..........
http://www.aaiusa.org/newsandviews/washingtonwatch/100598.htm
http://www.xs4all.nl/~peace/pubeng/inter/aa.html
http://www.nonviolence.org/vitw/jrn24.html
http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/MiddleEast/Iraq/DoubleStandards.asp
http://www3.cnn.com/WORLD/9802/18/town.meeting.folo/index.html

Xterminator

Hmmm

Given that this is an imperfect world, and none of us are without sin, then perhaps we should never presume to fight agains terrorism or aggression.

The solution may be to let these people do as they will.

Or perhaps if we are nice enought to them, they will bomb others and ignore us.

The U.S./UN economic sanctions which have been imposed on Iraq are now in their eighth year. They have brought about a catastrophic economic situation in that country, resulting in the deaths of an estimated 1.5 million Iraqi children, women and men.


Well why dont we just allow Saddam to sell his oil to us at infalted prices, then purchase nuclear technology, and let him test that on his people too. Perhaps Saddam will remember to feed some of the children, then when he has more money. If he does not, sure then the west will be to blame for not paying enough for the oil, so that the nuclear, chemical, and conventionary weapons Saddam needs can be bought, with a surplus for the needy?

Hello, does the word flawed arguement mean anything to you?

Russia - Need I say anything? One word : "Chechnya".
Russia. A country that has experienced terrible terrorist atrocities from so called Chechnian freedom fighters. These freedom fighters target civilians. No apologies.
At least Russia targets rebels, but is fairly conscienceless about so called collateral damage.
Well give us your easy solution to the problem. what response would you liek to see from Russia? If they pull out of chechnia, what about the minorities living there who are of a different race and creed to the mainstream. What about the women there?
Well if the Afgan model is anything to go by, they will be screw*d!

I could go on, but I think my point is made. There are no easy solutions. But not o act is sometimes a worse decision that to act. It is good to learn from mistakes, but tothrow what has gone wrong back into the face of those who had to choose between a rock and a hard place s far to easy, for someone who lives a protected life in a protected country.

Lets say you are a resident of new york wand lost family and friends. Lets ay you are a resident of Moscow, and have been made homless by a Checnian bomb. Try to maintian your sense of balance then. I know if it was me i would want to see action against the those who allow or promote these actions.

Clintons Cat

Strangely enough Sadam had the capability to launch Chemical and Biological weapons against Israel during the gulf war.
But he didnt.
The UN weapons inspector teams were convinced Sadam Hussain
was hiding substantial stocks of chemical and biological Weapons and had despite their best efforts obtained an ammount of weapons grade plutonium.
The sanctions had no realistic chance of stopping Saddam rebuilding and replenishing his conventional and non conventional military strength.
In the meantime a million children have died.
Not the children of the Bathist party elite of course,their hospitals are well stocked,just the children of the ordinary iraqi people.
Total relience on the favour and whim of sadam hussain has stregthened not deminished his authority.Meanwhile the world turns its back and continues a failed policy for flawed reasons.
Can you understand why in the middle east some people might be a little upset? The worlds indifference to the suffering and death of millions of ordinary people,
Not through Eccological Disaster or even incompetence but deliberate policy,the effects of which publicly acknowledged by those most able to shape and change those flawed policies.
Madeline Allbrights comments were widely reported upon, but it hardly caused a political ripple,She was not sacked for the insensitivity of her comments, their were no calls for her resignation.Just tacit approval.

There are no easy solutions. But not to act is sometimes a worse decision that to act. It is good to learn from mistakes, but to throw what has gone wrong back into the face of those who had to choose between a rock and a hard place

This is not ancient history,the effects of which the current generation has any control of...like the potato famine...for instance.This is an ongoing policy which is killing millions.
To be a little critical of an Ongoing policy of Genocide perpetrated by the worlds greatest democracy,isnt that what it means to be free?




.................

bugler

Hello, does the word flawed arguement mean anything to you?

Do you know what the words "logic" or "reasoning" mean? I'd be surprised if you do, as your posts so far show you lack a basic understanding of either.

Well why dont we just allow Saddam to sell his oil to us at infalted prices, then purchase nuclear technology, and let him test that on his people too.

Noone would be forced to buy his oil.Anyway, oil is actually allowed to be sold, under a special arrangement.Purchase nuclear technology... I'm confused.Which part of the sentence "Saddam has plenty of money to pursue his own interests but his people do not have enough money to live" are you finding it hard to understand? Blocking medical manuals and other lethal items such as sanitary towels is stopping Saddam from killing us all with dangerous bio and chemical weapons is it?


I admire your refusal to allow the fact you know nothing about Chechnya to hinder you talking on the matter.

These freedom fighters target civilians

I presume you are referring to the handful of bombings of apartment blocks in Moscow and the south of the country? These terrible acts that were not linked to the main Chechen rebel groups? No proof? Persistent claims that the Russian governemnt may have had a hand in the bombings, in order to stir up support for its new "anti-terrorist" operation? Shamil Basayev, the main Chechen warlord, has never directly targetted civilians before, yet it was he who the finger was pointed at.

The Chechen rebels are a ruthless, at times murderous bunch, but I think you will find it is Russia who targets civilians recklessly and downright directly. Pray tell who these civilians who the Chechen rebels so regularly are? Considering the main fighting is almost exclusively happening in Chechnya, who are the civilians being attacked?

Well give us your easy solution to the problem. what response would you liek to see from Russia? If they pull out of chechnia, what about the minorities living there who are of a different race and creed to the mainstream. What about the women there?

Russia has frequently broken the rules of military engagement and violated numerous human rights accords.They dropped leaflets over Grozny, warning civilians to leave, otherwise they would suffer blanket bombing as they could be considered "terrorists". And talk about tarring all people with the same brush...all muslims are not the same.Fundamental Islam had very little hold in Chechnya before Russia decided to escalate its operations. The women in Chechnya, are not oppressed like the women in Afghanistan.Do you actually know anything about Chechnya at all?

Have a read of some of the righteous Russian militaries policies and tactics :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/chechnya/Story/0,2763,523320,00.html

The helicopters circled the village all night and, behind the brick walls of their family compounds, people listened in terror in their beds. By morning scores of armoured personnel carriers had surrounded Sernovodsk and groups of Russian soldiers were going from house to house, arresting and beating virtually every male teenager and adult.
Several hundred were herded into a field not far from the mosque, ordered to pull their shirts over their heads to act as makeshift blindfolds, and told to lie face down on the ground. Others were crammed into the filthy basement of an unfinished farm building nearby.

One by one men were picked out and taken into an army lorry. Wires were fixed to their wrists or genitals and, cranking the handle of a primitive generator like a field telephone, a Russian soldier gave them electric shocks.

Is this the appropriate response you like to see?

Read some more, about how Russia's stooge administration in Chechnya itself could not stand the methods of the Russian military.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/chechnya/Story/0,2763,519732,00.html

Or perhaps you could stop arguing on points about which you know nothing, and do some reading yourself.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/chechnya/Story/0,2763,501646,00.html

Would you like to read about the kind of men that constitute a considerable percentage of Russia's military in Chechnya? Contract soldiers(mercenaries), often violent criminals, lured to Chechnya by the chance to obtain bribes and engage in general criminality.

http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=71355

Or how about the lovely practice of corpse selling by Russian soldiers?

http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=69265


Again, the noble practice of faking engagements with "rebels" in order to earn their bonus payments, and what can happen to Russian soldiers who refuse to go along with it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=88353

Oh look, a Russia general who admits his troops acted in a lawless and criminial manner while searching for "terrorists".

http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=83052

bugler

One for the road, read and wonder how a military that employs such fine officers could possibly be seen to be at fault for any of Chechnyas troubles.

http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=62044

Yes the Chechen rebels commit crimes, and yes they can be murderous and savage, but it is the Russian army who lead in the violation of human rights, and the Russian army(and those who command it) who are responsible for Chechnya's(and as a consequence, Russia's) woes.

Clintons Cat

http://rawa.fancymarketing.net/na.html
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/asia/afghan-bck1005.htm
http://rawa.fancymarketing.net/index.html

in the words of the onion..A nation Yearns to care about stupid bull**** once more